Originally posted by BigVitoMarkIf Heyman is back writing Smackdown, it can only be a good thing.
I'm not so sure. During that good booking run Smackdown had, two major things were obvious to anyone objective. 1/The ratings didn't go up all that much, and 2/ Guys got hurt working that physical style. My biggest criticism of Heyman as a booker is that the way he books does nothing for the long-term health of wrestlers either collectively as a roster or as individuals with friends and families.
I won't deny I enjoyed Heyman's booking tenure but during that period the bar was raised on athleticism significantly and a lot of guys responsible for those memorable performances went on the IR. Kurt, Chavo, and Edge most notably, maybe Rhyno, not sure when he went out. ECW definitely ushered in a new era in wrestling, but that physical intensity simply cannot possibly be sustained. I'm not bloodthirsty and no, I don't think I'm entitled. I'm not saying I feel particularly entertained watching long matches which are 80% sitting down and resting while working a knee...That's not something I pay to see, but there has to be a balance. Tommy Dreamer is a physical mess right now and will never have a decent match again. Raven was completely fucked up on all kinds of drugs in the ECW days. Look at Shane Douglas. Look at New Jack. Look at Sandman. Look at Sabu. This shit didn't get them anywhere, shortened their careers as performers in their primes, and made them very little money. I'll be surprised if most of that list lives another ten years.
While I acknowledge some of the good ECW did, I don't think anyone should paint them with a brush and say it was "good for wrestling". Let's think about that. All that weapons stuff is not what wrestling is about. Yes, ECW showcased pure athletic contests at times, but I think we can all admit that this was diluted at least somewhat by the much more prevalent "hardcore" violent content. Let's face it, Paul had some shitty guys and it's easier to teach a clod to swing a chair than it is to chain-wrestle. ECW desensitized a lot of fans, and they did a lot of questionable storylines with a lot of ridiculous trashy material that I could never watch or justify watching. I could never have been a true ECW fan because the rampant misogyny and occasional racism that littered the narrative disturbs me. If it ever becomes necessary to chain someone to a cross, I'm sorry, you're not that good of a storyteller. I don't like watching people get plastered with weapons and bleed all over the first three rows. Hell, you can bring up Mass Transit but only an idiot could have allowed that to happen. Nothing like that ever happened on Vince's or Eric's watch. Not even Owen Hart's death can be compared to the company head allowing a minor into a ring to have his face sliced open by a convicted murderer. That right there was proof that Paul Heyman was not intelligent enough to head a legit national company.
We harp on WWE and blame them for everything they do wrong. Then we credit everything they do right to other people. Is this the way of the smart or the way of the idiot? Vince McMahon was "just lucky". Wow, that's a strong statement, that should have its own thread. If ECW gets credit for every national crusierweight spectacle we see today, for every good dramatic episodic storyline, than so too shall they be credited for the necrophilia and constant bloodshed.
There is definite credibility to the theory that the ECW fans were bloodthirsty. These "smart" crowds couldn't decide if they were the audience or the talent. "You fucked-up" is mean-spirited and arrogant. "She's a crack-whore" is just not something a decent human being would chant. And man, if there's one thing that got to me it's the absolute lust for the mistreatment of women. They really got hard for that stuff, and it's just something that sickens me. Now there's worse, like the barbed-wire matches and C-4 explosive matches of Japan, but no one touts that garbage as the way it should be. ECW did a lot of harm, far more than good, and if I'm Vince I want to keep Heyman away from my talent. I don't want to look at Benoit and Kurt and Edge in five years and see what I see when I look at Sandman and his ilk now. I like physical matches, but they should be within the parameters of reason.
I'd tell you to kiss my ass, but I don't want to get it infected.
You make some interesting points, but the evidence doesn't bear out those observations in the context of the particular issue at hand, which is Heyman's positive influence on WWE character-building and storytelling.
I saw no crucifixions, bloodbaths, and misogynistic violence during Heyman's booking tenure, but I saw a company successfully take a roster lacking The Trinity of Rock, Austin, and HHH and create a star like Brock Lesnar, while seamlessly integrating the young talent with veteran workers.
I saw WRESTLING get over, something that for years people were saying couldn't happen. I'm pretty sure Heyman had something to do with that...
It's a HUGE stretch to blame the injuries of Kurt Angle, Edge, Rhyno, and Chavo Guerrero Jr on Paul Heyman's writing style considering that none of them went out while Heyman was writing.
Heyman was removed from the creative process in January. Angle went down in March, Edge in February, Chavo in like June or July and Rhyno was out in *2001*.
Kurt Angle's neck injury was a result from the fact that he had as he would say, a BROKEN FREAKING NECK in the Olympics. The dude not only qualified but then wrestled the Olympics on it and he's paying for it now. He was working the same style under Heyman that he was working before Heyman.
Edge says that his neck injury is a result of the years of TLC matches and it was inevitable. Chavo had a shoulder injury. Rhyno got his injury because he ran into Justin Credible with his head.
If the wrestlers themselves have discovered now that they can't be throwing a zillion german suplexes, that's up to them to change and not Heyman. Nobody's saying Heyman's the perfect booker but he comes up with some brilliant angles and knows how to showcase people's strengths. He should be involved in the creative process.
Originally posted by BigVitoMarkIf Heyman is back writing Smackdown, it can only be a good thing.
I'm not so sure. During that good booking run Smackdown had, two major things were obvious to anyone objective. 1/The ratings didn't go up all that much, and 2/ Guys got hurt working that physical style. My biggest criticism of Heyman as a booker is that the way he books does nothing for the long-term health of wrestlers either collectively as a roster or as individuals with friends and families.
However, the writers/creative department don't dictate what moves/etc. go on in the ring. That's decided between the talents and the agents. Writers only dictate the finish at most. Usually, the senior agents (Patterson/Lanza/Brisco) dictate that as well.
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Originally posted by T.i.O a B.m.FHow many "stars" has Heyman made in this business. Sure his ECW guy might of been over with a small smark group but once they went to the big 2 almost all of them failed.
Here's a list of guys that either proved themselves in ECW before being picked up by WWF/WCW or they went to ECW to improve their stock while in between jobs in either WWF or WCW:
Mick Foley, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, Rey Misterio Jr., Rob Van Dam, Dudley Boys, Raven, Tajiri, Rhino, Lance Storm (You can't say he wasn't successful in WCW especially), Tazz, Lita, Dean Malenko, Juventud Guerrero, and some guy called "Stone Cold" Steve Austin.
And, as for ECW only being over with a small smark group, the ECW reunion on Raw (which happened in WCW's home of Atlanta) got a much bigger response than anything involving WCW during the Invasion.
I saw no crucifixions, bloodbaths, and misogynistic violence during Heyman's booking tenure, but I saw a company successfully take a roster lacking The Trinity of Rock, Austin, and HHH and create a star like Brock Lesnar, while seamlessly integrating the young talent with veteran workers.
I only got to watch ECW off and on. As far as a crucifixion goes, didn't they do something like that where Kurt Angle was an invited guest to the show and after he saw it he almost decided not to get involved with pro wrestling?
And one time I did see ECW on TV, I seem to remember Justin Credible wailing away on a woman with a kendo stick (Jazz?)
(edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 31.1.04 1849) Believe me, I'm not defending message boards -- they can be evil places ESPN.com's Bill Simmons
Originally posted by T.i.O a B.m.FHow many "stars" has Heyman made in this business. Sure his ECW guy might of been over with a small smark group but once they went to the big 2 almost all of them failed.
Here's a list of guys that either proved themselves in ECW before being picked up by WWF/WCW or they went to ECW to improve their stock while in between jobs in either WWF or WCW:
Mick Foley, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, Rey Misterio Jr., Rob Van Dam, Dudley Boys, Raven, Tajiri, Rhino, Lance Storm (You can't say he wasn't successful in WCW especially), Tazz, Lita, Dean Malenko, Juventud Guerrero, and some guy called "Stone Cold" Steve Austin.
And, as for ECW only being over with a small smark group, the ECW reunion on Raw (which happened in WCW's home of Atlanta) got a much bigger response than anything involving WCW during the Invasion.
(edited by The 5th Horseman on 31.1.04 1743)
Ok first off WCW made Jericho and Benoit. They gave Jericho his persona taht got so over and carried him into WWE. Most of the guys you name were already established out of the states when they came into ECW or gained their "personas" in WCW or WWF. Look at Lita for example. In ECW she was Danny Dorring slut girlfriend, she came to WWF got changed to Lita and got major over. Rhyno and Storm have been a failure in this buisness. I like both and yeah Storm had lots of titles in WCW but that was at a time when no one cared. In ECW Tajiri was a major heel but what actually got him over was when he became a comedic character in WWF.
The only ones I'll give you on that list are Austin, and the Dudleyz...and possibly Foley but it could be argued WCW found him and made Cactus Jack in his great feuds with Vader.
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Originally posted by StaggerLeeFans didnt appreciate the hard work? Did you see the Jerry Lynn v RVD matchcups? Fans clapping for MAT/CHAIN WRESTLING.
wow. 30 seconds of reversals would get a cheer. so what? again, when did they chant "ecw, ecw"? after a great series of wrestling moves, or after someone would dive over the ropes and put himself through a table? you tell me what they appriciated more.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeBack when John Kronus and Perry Saturn were tagging, they were being billed as the best tag team in the world, and if you think they wouldnt make the current WGTT look like crap, you are sadly mistaken.
holy crap. do you think jason was really the sexiest man on earth, too?
Originally posted by T.i.O a B.m.Ffirst off WCW made Jericho and Benoit.
Would either of them have ever been given a chance in the WCW or WWF if not for their runs in ECW? There's a good chance they wouldn't have. And, if they did get a chance, it would have been MUCH later than it was when they were given the chance. The same can be said for guys like Rey Misterio Jr., Eddy Guerrero, etc.
They gave Jericho his persona taht got so over and carried him into WWE.
No they didn't. That was Jericho's doing. Jericho did that stuff himself because he has stated that WCW was only concerned with the Main Event guys so he wrote that stuff for himself because they weren't going to write anything for him. Plus, in typical WCW fashion, they just worked against Jericho even after he got himself over. That's why he took a pay cut to leave WCW and go to the WWF.
Most of the guys you name were already established out of the states when they came into ECW or gained their "personas" in WCW or WWF.
Everybody (except for The Rock and Goldberg) were already established somewhere else before they went to the WWF or WCW. Hulk Hogan was already established in the AWA before going to the WWF. That doesn't mean the WWF shouldn't get some credit for turning him into the big star he became.
Look at Lita for example. In ECW she was Danny Dorring slut girlfriend, she came to WWF got changed to Lita and got major over.
Where did the WWF find her? Did they know about her before ECW gave her character TV time? She wasn't doing any more when she got over in the WWF than she was doing in ECW.
Rhyno and Storm have been a failure in this buisness.
That's BS! If Lance Storm and Rhino are failures in this business, then there are VERY FEW successes!
I like both and yeah Storm had lots of titles in WCW but that was at a time when no one cared.
it could be argued WCW found him and made Cactus Jack in his great feuds with Vader.
There was more people watching WCW when Lance Storm held all those titles than there was when Cactus Jack was fighting with Vader!
In ECW Tajiri was a major heel but what actually got him over was when he became a comedic character in WWF.
Was he given a chance to get over as a serious character before the WWF made him into a comedic character? If so, I missed it.
And, I enjoyed Tajiri as Commissioner Regal's lackey, but how can you claim he was over after claiming Rhino and Lance Storm are failures? Do you really think that Tajiri character was so far superior to Rhino and Lance Storm?
The only ones I'll give you on that list are Austin, and the Dudleyz...and possibly Foley but it could be argued WCW found him and made Cactus Jack in his great feuds with Vader.
Why would you give me Austin, considering the other criteria you have laid out? Austin was already well established in World Class and was a singles and tag team Champion in WCW before arriving in ECW.
The point is, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin would probably never have been a big star (because the character wouldn't have been around) if not for the opportunity Paul Heyman gave Steve Austin to showcase himself on ECW after he was fired by WCW. The same can be said for the other guys I mentioned. Their careers were effected by their exposure in ECW.
It's not a coincidence that WCW and WWF went after ECW characters when they wanted to bring in someone new.
It's not a coincidence that ECW became so much bigger after Paul Heyman took over.
It's not a coincidence that Vince McMahon looked to ECW for ideas when he fell behind WCW and was looking for an edge to take him back to the top.
It's not a coincidence that Vince McMahon and his WWF vaulted over and far beyond WCW after "borrowing" from ECW, combining that with his vast resources, and exploided during the WWF "Attitude" era.
Originally posted by madiqYou make some interesting points, but the evidence doesn't bear out those observations in the context of the particular issue at hand, which is Heyman's positive influence on WWE character-building and storytelling.
I saw no crucifixions, bloodbaths, and misogynistic violence during Heyman's booking tenure, but I saw a company successfully take a roster lacking The Trinity of Rock, Austin, and HHH and create a star like Brock Lesnar, while seamlessly integrating the young talent with veteran workers.
I saw WRESTLING get over, something that for years people were saying couldn't happen. I'm pretty sure Heyman had something to do with that...
Brock has never drawn a dime. Just because he was shoved down our throats doesn't mean he became a star. He is accepted in a prominent role and has grown into it as a performer, but every stat available tells us WWE sank more than it swam with that holy trinity gone and with Brock on top.
Originally posted by Mild Mannered Madman However, the writers/creative department don't dictate what moves/etc. go on in the ring. That's decided between the talents and the agents. Writers only dictate the finish at most. Usually, the senior agents (Patterson/Lanza/Brisco) dictate that as well.
Valid, but the instances of 30 minutes main events certainly went up when Paul took the book. Wrestlers and agents don't abitrarily decide to start having a heavier focus on physicality, that comes from the general creative focus of the writing.
Originally posted by fuelinjectedIt's a HUGE stretch to blame the injuries of Kurt Angle, Edge, Rhyno, and Chavo Guerrero Jr on Paul Heyman's writing style considering that none of them went out while Heyman was writing.
Heyman was removed from the creative process in January. Angle went down in March, Edge in February, Chavo in like June or July and Rhyno was out in *2001*.
Your hypothesis seems to infer these men's injuries were cumulative. Angle's neck and Edge's TLC past are all telling reasons that they didn't need to be going out there in weekly half-hour bumpfests. Rhyno I wasn't sure on. And you have to give him a little blame for the ECW guys I listed, I don't remember hearing about agents in Phillie.
I am not denying his talent for booking, but his booking is always touted as something that protects the wrestler's weaknesses. I don't think Paul does anything to protect a wrestler from injury, I think he has too much of a hard-on for bumping, and as the leader of the creative team he has a say.
I'd tell you to kiss my ass, but I don't want to get it infected.
Originally posted by dr beavis wow. 30 seconds of reversals would get a cheer. so what? again, when did they chant "ecw, ecw"? after a great series of wrestling moves, or after someone would dive over the ropes and put himself through a table? you tell me what they appriciated more.
holy crap. do you think jason was really the sexiest man on earth, too?
Well, seeing as how the WWF cant get a cheer for anything less than a HOLY SHIT moment, (tm Joey Styles)or from Austin rolling out on his quad bike, or Rock coming in and making fun of French people, I would say that little accomplishment by ECW puts them ahead of 99% of the WWE fans. Watch when they brought in the Lucha wrestlers, they were getting standing ovations and none of them were using barbed wire or putting everybody through table after table. A lot of overlooked wrestling got big pops from ECW fans, like Little Guido and Tajiri mixing it up.
And, no Jason wasnt the sexiest man on earth, as we all know it was Austin Idol!
I don't know if Heyman is writing again but the man derserves credit. He has changed the face of wrestleing for ever
No Heyman No WWF attitude its that's simple
I also agree with StraggerLee the WWE fans are so bad at the moment they are quiet and cheer anybody at all Apathy has sunk in which is terrible and the thing that i don't get it after paying good money for a ticket. Now after Wrestlemania the Raw crew are making there way over here to Scotland hooray And i will go see one of there shows and go apeshit and cheer for everyone including Hunter