Originally posted by drjayphdJust finished reading Keith's recap. Not sure what there was more of tonight: HHH on Raw, or Keith pissing and moaning about HHH on Raw. I wonder if he's just doing it as an ironic commentary on how annoying things can be when repeated constantly. Is he even capable of enjoying any WWE free TV anymore? I thought it was a pretty good, solid show. I didn't even mind all the HHH, because it makes sense. He's the champ (of the show, at least), and doesn't it make sense to build the show around, you know, the CHAMP?
Yeah, but Keith thinks Booker should be champ. Even though Booker is a better babyface, and champs (as a rule) shouldn't be babyface because it's more entertaining to watch the face try to take the belt from the heel (see Tonk Man, Honky).
I'd love to see Booker have a run with the big belt, but the fact is that if you want to establish a belt, you give it to a heel so that the faces can chase it. And if you want to establish a big belt, you give it to your biggest heel. HHH is a natural for the biggest heel. He's enough of an ass on screen that casual fans can hate him, and he's got enough heat from his "backstage politics" that internet fans REALLY hate him. The result? EVERYONE hopes he drops the belt.
That was the perfect promo for RVD. Cool, funny, cocky, all in keeping with his character. They didn't try to make him into something that he wasn't and they let his natural persona shine through. Now, the fans have an alternative to the bad-ass face to cheer for.
Sure, RVD has very limited mic skills, but he was believable and showed good intensity attacking HHH at the end. Great buildup to the PPV.
(But since he got the best of HHH at the end of the show, that means he'll job at Unforgiven, right?)
As for the rest, this was the best RAW since Bischoff took over. They finally struck a workable balance between entertainment and wrestling, especially with the killer IC title match. Keep it up!
"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
I'm actually kinda wondering if the Jeff Hardy main event was the original plan. Someone reminded me that last week, it really looked like they were building towards a HHH/Bubba match. I'm wondering if Bradshaw's injury kinda derailed the original plans for the show. (What plans? The probably booked this whole thing yesterday.) Quiet, you! I thought you only bugged CRZ?
Originally posted by PhantomI'm actually kinda wondering if the Jeff Hardy main event was the original plan. Someone reminded me that last week, it really looked like they were building towards a HHH/Bubba match. I'm wondering if Bradshaw's injury kinda derailed the original plans for the show...
I think you hit it right on the head. Even during tonight's show, when Bubba was seeing to an injured Spike in the back, HHH was laughing at him. Bubba's first order of business will have to be the UnAmericans (cause they "actually" hurt Spike), but he's still pissed at HHH. I like the slow burn, and having to replace Bradshaw will allow even more time before Bubba and HHH actually get in the ring. I'd love it if Bubba went over the rest of the big heels (after the UnAmericans, Jericho and the Big Show) before getting his hands on HHH-- it would make him seem like a credible threat (though I don't advocate Bubba as champ, a Raw title shot is not out of the question if he goes over the other heels).
I thought Raw was great tonight. A lot of the things HHH said (like RVD being not main event status and Flair being too old) hit almost too close to home considering most smarks would say these statements are HHH's real opinions and having such opinions is bad for the company, but RVD at least showed us tonight that he can run with the big boy.
Jeff Hardy did not show us that he can be a top dog, but we already knew that.
Jericho finally got another big win, though still not a clean one. Hopefully he DOES get his revenge against Flair and he can have a nice few months as IC champ to build him back up to where he was when he won the Undisputed Title.
Help me, please. Is Stephanie a face? I think she is (as she was when she was reintroduced as GM), but there where a few weeks where I really couldn't tell...
Rosie and Jamal almost looked like they were going to be faces, as wrestling fans tend to like people who indiscriminantly kick ass as much as they did (Steve Austin? The Dudley Boys?), but I think dragging out their debut into 500 3-minute warnings pissed enough people off to make them the heels they were supposed to be. Damn, I actually found myself cheering for Billy freakin' Gunn (something that hasn't happened to me since the first NAO split).
I almost decided to miss my first PPV in god knows how long, but I'm actually looking forward to Unforgiven now. (And I'll be rooting for RVD even though every smart instinct in my brain tells me HHH goes over clean)
A lot of the things HHH said (like RVD being not main event status and Flair being too old) hit almost too close to home considering most smarks would say these statements are HHH's real opinions and having such opinions is bad for the company, but RVD at least showed us tonight that he can run with the big boy.
HHH's new character (no longer the uberHHH but the smart ass bastard H) is perfect for that. Did anybody notice Jericho saying last week 'Because of HHH I never got my title shot' ..all I could think was 'It's funny cos it's true!'
I've said it before and I will say it again. In the stories little happens without a reason, and they ARE booking in advance. Triple H might win the ppv match but this isn't over. Giving the title to Jericho made sure that people will actually think RVD has a chance (cos there is no way they would unite the belts) and HHH showing up backstage is another aspect of the smart ass bastard. Sticking his nose in things and making enemies..
Sounds like a cool Raw..too bad I won't be able to see it *whine*
The only person who is capable of carrying a broom to a five star outing is none other than.... Torri Welles
Well the large amount of HHH on the show makes me feel like I made the right decision to tune out after the show opening promo. Though I am glad I caught the RVD part where he mocked the water spitting. He had the whole shoulder hunching thing down perfectly! Of course you know he just lost 2 offensive sequences during the PPV match for that bit, but it was worth it.
I realized something though which scares me in some way. Back even in the shittiest times of WWF, when I would miss a monday due to school or work or anything, I would regret missing the show. Tonight I sat on my couch, and flipped past Raw a few times, and never felt like I was missing anything I would want to see. And I have to think if they've moved me to this point, there's got to be some other die-hards who also have just lost all will to watch the HHH show. I know that a couple of my friends who are part of that fabled mark audience who supposedly love HHH and UT and never would pay to see RVD or Jericho or Benoit have stopped watching as well. When they mentioned it to me (i try not to talk wrestling with these guys, as inevitably they just look at me and tell me to stop spending so much time on the computer) i asked why they stopped, and each one basically said "HHH never loses, so it's boring now." From the mouths of marks.... ;)
God Loves Da Bears, Hates Jay Feely: Chicago 14, Atlanta 13 Bears go to 2-0 (next vs. New Orleans)
Wow the PocHHHie effect was in full force tonight. HHHe was everywhere tonight.
I think the booking was a lot stronger tonight then it was in recent weeks, even though they baited & switched a womans title match I was looking forward to, which I think would be a nice fit in between the heaps of UnAmericans clogging up the mid-card... This is kinda of an opposite night with decent booking but bad execution by the wrestlers, it seemed like a lot of wrestler missed major spots (and again no women match to pick on little things).
-Bischoff's opening promo was interesting. His character is really hit or really miss with me, it's hard to explain. I do get a kick how he always fist pumps when the crowd pops for his idea (lol)... Triple H comes out and rambles on, RVD comes out and was pretty damn funny making fun of his spit pose and giving him advice about not being tense. The crowd seemed kinda heatless in this interview not really getting behind anyone. Gosh is it Trips that's a vacuum of heat RVD was red hot and this interview the crowd wasnt' buying. Well at least I was digging it
-Rico v. Flair- Rico sure likes to kick, the finishing blow seemed to miss badly (first of many on this night) and Yes I did notice Flair's hand on the bottom rope... Didn't like the aftermath with Flair/HHH
-Booker T. v. Test- Booker cut a pretty lame promo before hand but his Moulgan Rouge line was pretty good.. Test messed up sideslam in the beginning. They also screwed up a slam. But Booker did hit an amazing flying clothesline. Impressed that the announcers mentioned there TnT tag team.
-Storm/Christian v. Spike/Bubba- Did Spike really get hurt on the wassup move, that little guy throws hisbody through everything and gets hurt on the wassup, that's the way things go sometimes. Bubba's legs scare me. Pretty long match. It was actually really good I enjoyed it... I DID like Triple H interplay with Bubba afterwards.
-Jericho v. RVD- Match of the night, this was awesome, flying kicks a plenty. RVD going full speed from the top to the arena floor on H was an amazing sight. Gosh this match was needed for me to give me a little faith in the industry. Some HWA (hot WRESTLING action) is all I need. I even like the Tripaference because he never did lay a hand on RVD which Lawler did a good job pointing out (Yes Lawler)... Jericho's afterparty for one was kinda amusing (lol).
-Kane v. Regal- Can't remember much of this match, Kane's flying clothesline was cool, normal run-ins to set up the match... Don't really know if I need to see 3 Unamerican matches per show.
-Bischoff/IOW- I admit I have no clue where this was going, when Bischoff said backstage "I got a few minutes for them" I thought uh oh (along with the announcers). Decent inring segment even though the spokeswoman pulled a Trish first Raw and got the case of the nervous giggles (I've seen that spokeswoman before?). Bischoff was over the top but worked this week and The Steph disguise was cool. Again no surprise that SHE gets revenge on Bischoff while the Raw girls get insulted/ degraded and they (Trish) doesn't get any revenge on Eric but Steph does for them... The stipulations for the tag match is lame. I did find it funny that it seemed like it's Eric's idea to kiss Steph's ass if his team loses. Also heard Eric call it an intercontinental match instead of an interpromotional match (like I said all performers seemed off but he was selling his nuts so I could look past that mistake)
-HHH v. Jeff Hardy- What was Jeff on? He looked awful and tired. Not just the missed spots his entire body language was odd (well more then usual). He looked like he was up for 72 hours. Very strange. Nice to see Triple H no sell the Swanton and hit the sleeper 10 seconds later... Did Lawler really say Jeff "shot his wad". The only highlight for Jeff this night was that pretty cool OLP desire video they did for him.
Well it was a decent show put (which means it's WAY better then last week) despite the overdosing on H and Unamerican and the no showing of people I really like Ie Trish, Molly, Nowinski and Dreamer. I thought the triple threat women match would have been a nice change of pace to the show but oh well, maybe they will all jump to Smackdown and I'll be happy... They did some decent writing even though the performers were a little off (it's usually the other way around). And I think the message went back to JR and Lawler and they really got there stuff together this week with Lawler even making good points about Test/Booker as a team and altitude effecting someone's stamina and how H never did touch RVD in his match with Jericho. Even though he wasn't perfect because he felt the need to take a minor shot at the women wrestlers when he heard they postponed the match.
(edited by Net Hack Slasher on 17.9.02 0439) WWE new slogan "WWE: circling the drain"
Originally posted by Net Hack SlasherWow the PocHHHie effect was in full force tonight. HHHe was everywhere tonight.
*sigh* Why is it so hard to understand that, for better or for worse, the man is being built as the shows champion? All the segments he was in last night had a point to me: HHH had a freakin' MYSTERY opponent and his verbal assaults on everyone backstage were to create a list of people that would have a reason to come out and kick his ass; that way there would be some suspense as to who the opponent would be... of course, we ended up with an apparently drugged out Jeff Hardy but after all the backstage segments I wasn't expecting it so to a degree that worked... as for the sleeper, HHH is taking away all the cool things about his character (i.e. the Pedigree as his main finisher, bad ass apparell, etc), thus giving the 'marks' less reasons to cheer him. If y'all didn't hate him so much, you'd probably be complimenting him on it...
Originally posted by Net Hack SlasherBischoff was over the top but worked this week and The Steph disguise was cool. Again no surprise that SHE gets revenge on Bischoff while the Raw girls get insulted/ degraded and they (Trish) doesn't get any revenge on Eric but Steph does for them...
The segment had nothing to do with revenge for women wrestlers, it was a set up to get revenge for Steph's attack on SmackDown. Not everything is a backstage conspiracy y'know, and if anything all the degrading matches now look to me like some actual booking in advance was going on...
as for the sleeper, HHH is taking away all the cool things about his character (i.e. the Pedigree as his main finisher, bad ass apparell, etc), thus giving the 'marks' less reasons to cheer him. If y'all didn't hate him so much, you'd probably be complimenting him on it....
Good point. I was thinking as well, that they may be building up the sleeper, so when someone (be it RVD this Sunday or another challenge down the road) finally goes over the Game, the Pedigree does not have to be kicked out of, thus protecting HHH's "real" finisher for down the road.
(edited by Doplo on 17.9.02 0741) I strenuously object? Is that how it works? Objection. Overruled. No,no,no, no, I strenuously object. Oh, well if you strenuously object, let me take a moment to reconsider.---- Kevin Pollak-A Few Good Men
Just a small note- Cx mentioned how HHH is removing the "cool" things about his character, which I agree is a smart move, but... the sleeper? I mean, really, if HHH wants to become the next guy with a secondary submission finisher, he could have been a bit more inspired in picking something. A move that passes as a resthold in most matches should not be used as a finisher, imo, even if we're supposed to believe it's all deadly and shit because HHH's arms are OMG MASSIVE. Get the guy a Rings Of Saturn or Torture Rack or something.
Besides, this experiment just hasn't worked. Brock's bear hug got Hogan to pass out, but now guys like Hardcore Holly are getting out of it like it's nothing. Edge's very cool reverse figure 4 edgelock lasted about 3 matches and hasn't been seen since. Rock's sharpshooter is ultra shitty, and seems to be little more than a reminder of the WWF's past. The only guy to really make the dual finishers work is Angle, and he's Kurt Fucking Angle, who can seemingly make gold out of poo.
I think that's the point of the sleeper -- why stop using the Pedigree because it's "too cool" if you're just going to replace it with an equally cool submission move? (OK, the Rack isn't all that cool. But you know what I mean.)
That said, if they're trying to build up Jeff -- as shown by that music video -- he really should have lost to the Pedigree instead of just being fed to HHH's sleeper.
Overall, Raw was a dull show, despite Bischoff's protestations -- but I'll take dull over actively offensive, like last week's. There were a couple of good matches, like Jericho/RVD, and most of the rest was at least acceptable (Test/Booker and Jeff/HHH).
On the other hand, Kane/Regal was ugly stuff. They not only weren't on the same page, they weren't even in the same library. At least it was short. And at least the Dudleys/Unamericans tag match was pretty good. Spike looked like he was in pain going into the Wazzup Drop, so if he was legitimately injured, maybe it came before that.
I winced at the stips added to the inter-company tag match. Isn't it enough for B&C to get revenge on the guys who attacked them and spoiled their publicity stunt? Why drag Bischoff and Steph into it? (Yes, yes, I know, I know.)
Raw was a lot better this week. Of course that's not saying much but it was OK. I do have a question though. Who is next on the HHH bitch list? It has looked for a while like it will be Bubba but last night they made it look like Flair and then later Bubba. Plus the RVD feud seems to be too big for a 3 week feud. Maybe they will do some 3 or 4 way match so that H can lose the title under impossible odds then win it back the next night.
I just have 13 words for you. How much wood would a woodchuch chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
Like you said about the Rack... yeah. I was just going for something else where they'd could get his arms over as the strong point of the move, which is what I'm assuming they're going for with this, unless somebody just really gets a kick out of reading reports featuring "and puts the crowd to sleep as well."
Or maybe they're all OOOH Let's have HHH use the sleeper since he got a fall on Rock with it during the Ironman Match at Judgment Day 2000 and we (I) just ain't smart enough to be all CONTINUITY~!!!!
Another note- the Pedigree was never cool. Odd/interesting (not really) how he got it as a finisher requiring zero strength when Him Was Just A Little Guy and the name fit the snob image, then he became Unbreakable, then broke, We Can Rebuild Him as a gigantor monster-sized man, kept the same finish, added zero power moves (when many said he was bigger than Steiner was before), and is back to being clean shaven, dressing more business like, and NOW he moves the Pedigree into the backseat?
Shem mentioned the Jeff/sleeper/Pedigree thing, something I hoped for in the Test/UT SummerSlam match that actually ended up happening (UT over by Tombstone- hey, Taker and the TCoB, another guy with a failed, short-lived submission finisher). I wonder if Trips is trying to make the Pedigree his something special move now, as he and Taker become more and more like each other as every day passes.
* Bischoff is doing exactly what he should be doing -- playing a swarmy, annoying prat to such a degree that even people who should know better hate him.
* RVD's "spitting water" bit was priceless. Grrrrrr!
* Rico vs. Rey == golden. Rico vs. Flair == a very different color. Just didn't click.
* Booker vs. Test was Ernest Borgnine-ugly.
* I would really, really enjoy a teeny bit of closure to this whole Un-Americans angle. A decisive blowoff at the PPV would be nice.
* Was someone making a Kermit the Frog puppet do the happy dance in the crowd halfway through Jericho-RVD?
* Why is Jericho so excited about having a title that's a step below the last belt he had, and is now (I guess) only the third-highest in the company?
* Jericho-Flair AGAIN?
* Rosie & Jamal vs. Billy & Chuck on PPV. Shoot me now.
* Is it me, or is Jeff Hardy looking more and more like the ICP's buddy Evil Dead each week? All he needs to do is fall down more often and use a DDT as his finisher.
* I wanted to be a good boy and not pick on HHH for being in almost every segment. I wanted to be charitable and not incur the wrath of the HHH-lovers. But the SLEEPER HAS TO GO. What is this, Rowdy Roddy Helmsley?
"No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is _moral, sane and wholesome_ than our current crop of _Modern Americans_." -- Frank Zappa
Small but very annoying point. Last week, Jeff Hardy loses in the fatal four-way #1 contenders match. That's fine. However, how does he get a World Title shot before the man who won the #1 contenders match? Things like this demonstrate the lack of depth on the RAW roster and the lack of remembering what he wrote by comic-book man.
Thank you Mr. Wanz for the check, now you get an AWA World Title Reign. But be careful, my boy Greg is a heat machine.
I can't decide which Saturday Night Live character the dress shirt or polo shirt-wearin' new HHH reminds me of more - Mel Gibson as Frankenstein's smart evil twin brother or the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer. "HHH, you should probably do the job here to put RVD over for the good of the company." "Vince, I'm just a caveman! I was out hunting when I fell in some ice and was unfrozen by your scientists. Your future world frightens and confuses me. You say these words like "job" and "put over" and "good of the company" but my primative mind can't grasp these concepts!"
Actually, though, Raw was better this week than the last few I've seen. That sounds like damning with faint praise...and it is, I guess. But all things considered, HHH wasn't the big problem this week.
It was the UnAmerican vs. random guys feud that's going nowhere. The UnAmericans just bore me, and they went from taking two perfectly good and potentially entertaining guys (and Test, ha ha!) and making them boring to taking THREE perfectly good and potentially (well, Regal was almost always entertaining on the mic before this) entertaining guys (and Test, ha ha!) and making them boring. And in the process, Goldust hasn't been allowed to do the fun things he was doing before this all started and Booker has been stranded and left in the middle of this bland stuff. The new Kane and Bubba's Nash-legs aren't helping things any, either.
RVD's wacky thing at the top, with HHH and his always funny angry forehead, was a good segment. It was fun to see someone call HHH on the Old FaitHHHful routine, and HHH and his forehead sold the anger enough for both of them. I liked that.
I liked Bischoff's cabaret opening, they should have let him sing a song about the troubles he's been through and about how he's gonna make it all work. Rico vs. Ric would have been bigger, though, if they let them fight over the rights to a first name with "ric" in it and Flair would have lost the rights to "Ric" like how Booker lost his "T" against The New Harlem Heat. I was kinda hoping for more from Rico backstage this week as Bischoff's annoying personal stylist or something. Maybe Rico suggesting Bischoff let some grey back in to look distinguished and an enraged Bischoff kicking him out of his office.
Jericho's overdone celebration was also funny. There's another thread on the board about how the RVD/HHH match will end, and here's my guess, as I think we saw both halves of the equation come together in linking segments last night. RVD lost the belt thanks to HHH, freeing him up to win the Big Gold Belt at the PPV. HHH humiliated Jericho's PPV opponent. And that opponent has, in the last few weeks, been RVD's supporter. So that looks like it sets up Flair costing HHH the match so RVD can win the belt. RVD wins, HHH doesn't actually have to lose and he can retire Flair at Survivor Series or something. "I'm just a caveman, your honor!"
Oh, I kid HHH. He wasn't responsible for the odd main event being not so great, that looked more like Jeff just being all over the place. I really don't like the Sleeper as a finisher (shame they already used the Dragon Sleeper, that would be a pretty cool move for HHH) and the attempts to recreate the TAKA match continue (even though I still remember that as him beating the APA and Kaientai by himself), but Jeff is a perfectly fine guy to have lose to it, because he's definitely way above Spike so it kinda means something, but I don't think anyone cares if Jeff loses like that. Matt's the Hardy to pay attention to now. So they kinda made the best of a so-so situation in the main.
Oh, RVD comically using the Raw Title's belt strap to hold the officials off like Pootie Tang was pretty funny.
Steph's revenge on Bischoff wasn't nearly as entertaining as Judge Eric on SmackDown, since she just had a wig and was hidden off camera. But I expect that's where SmackDown being taped is an advantage, because they can risk something like Bischoff's make-up and, had it not worked, saved it. Luckily, it did work and that wasn't a problem, but I can see not wanting to have tried that on a live Raw with the potential for something like Hogan on UT's stalled motorcycle from a ways back. And also, SmackDown is just better than Raw.
I guess I don't really know what to think about Raw. The HHH-RVD buildup was pretty good this week, sort of balancing out the many HHH segments. The rest of it was the boring parts that helpfully allowed more attention to go to Monday Night Football. I'm thinking they have a good chance to fix things next Raw, because they'll hopefully mercy kill the UnAmerican mess to let Booker do something, anything, to capitalize on his popularity before it goes (I'd happily settle a Booker vs. Jericho IC feud if Booker can't go all the way up...if he somehow could, Dreamer vs. Jericho wouldn't be a bad substitute) and let Regal, Storm and Christian split apart so they can be fun to watch again.
I don't know why, but I'm just not sure what to think of RAW last night. I guess it's because I'm still glowing from Smackdown (The advantages of living in a major market, folks). I liked the IOW thing, but call me a dork, I didn't see Steph there until she took off the wig and glasses. Hell, I'll go as far as to say I kind of miss her cheering, and her attempts to whoo (even though her voice couldn't quite do that) made me laugh a bit. There were some women in the crowd who were cherring her too. But all in all, considering that I generally don't get too hype about any Unforgiven, it wasn't so bad, as long as your standards are lowered enough after the highs of Summerslam. The one good thing that Unforgiven and No Mercy can do, is lead us into Survivor Series.
P.S. By the way, this is the first time in about 5 months, that Steph was on RAW, so as much as you say she doesn't stay from the camera for too long, you have to give her credit there.
(edited by Ringmistress on 17.9.02 0842) Ringmistress - A bitch among heels.
did anyone else catch that someone jumped the ring when Billy and Chuck jumped in and attacked EasyE...if you look at the bottom right of the screen, you can see some white person look like they're making a move and get pulled back, and the camera moves a little up and to the left and zooms in a little so you can't see the ring apron...
Jerry "The King" Lawler rhymes with ass and hearing him rant like a 12 year old makes me all shades of angry. Every last shade. That's just my 2.45 Yen.
I switched back and forth between this and baseball. And given my overall negative stance on the product, I'd feel hypocritical if I started the thread. But I did see enough to comment on one thing that's really bugging me.