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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW Supershow #985 4/2/12 (Page 4)
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SchippeWreck
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Since: 26.3.03
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#61 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.84
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by dwaters
      Did anyone notice, even as Brock was approaching the ring, that Cena STILL managed to do the smirky grin?

      He's never going to change is he? Next year maroon t-shirt, the year after that yellow t-shirt, and on and on and on.


    To be fair, at that point Storyline Cena had no idea if Lesnar was going to be friend or foe.

Earlier, I blamed the crowd for messing up the storytelling of the final segment, but after a rewatch, I think it was more Cena.

-He broke from his speech and played into the chants.
-He pointed to the crowd during the pause before Brock's music, as if to say "OK, here comes the guy you're chanting for."
-Then, he had ZERO reaction when Brock came out. He essentially no-sold the surprise.



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geemoney
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Since: 26.1.03
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#62 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.72
    Originally posted by SchippeWreck
    <
    -Then, he had ZERO reaction when Brock came out. He essentially no-sold the surprise.


I'm not sure what he really should've done. If he had played into it like Lesnar coming out was a shock, he would've looked dumb because he obviously heard the crowd call it. I don't think he should've played to the crowd while they were chanting for Lesnar, though. That didn't help.



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Since: 23.6.10
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#63 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.43
    Originally posted by lotjx
    I have to take expectation to Cena is Captain America in Civil War. I'll try not get too nerdy about this, but I guess I am not the only one making Bats and Sups analogy, so I digress. During Civil War, when the government said they were going after the heroes, everyone expected including SHIELD that Cap would be the one leading it. Cap said No, it was wrong and put him against the machine that made him. He was the one that delivered one of the best speeches given by Mark Twain to Peter about telling the government to move when they were wrong. Cena is not doing that. Cena is Tony Stark.

    He believes what he is doing is right, because its what the machine wants and if he makes a bit of profit out of it like say new shirt each month, so be it. The man is going to have his own Green Lantern Rainbow Corp of shirts before its done. He does shove the sick kids in our face. Like that Children's Miracle shirt that he wears and the hour fluff piece we got last week. Cena like Stark is using all that charity work to hide behind the fact he is the machine. Yes, he may play around with cool characters like Ryder, but look what happens to them afterwards. Ryder is a joke. Cena did no favors for Ryder when they were together and took giant beatdowns for him. Ryder is the Peter Parker of this thing. Hell, he even lost the girl to WWE's boring Mephisto. Cena losing should have been the moment where he turned against the machine and said "Screw it, I am doing what the people want." He did not and just like Tony, he won't.

    If anyone is Cap its Punk and that is a giant stretch. Punk was part of the system even though he was viewed as a second stringer. He did win titles, but was not a major thought. He did tell the machine to go to hell and has lead a movement against the machine. That photo of him and the new generation in the fall in was the Civil War team. Those guys all lost at Mania minus Punk. The machine thought this was a good idea and then the people revolted. Last night and the night before sent the message. We know what we want and if we don't get it, get ready to be YES out of the building. And we do get it, we will love you for it. Granted, how long will the Brock/Rock euphoria last is up to the WWE, but they need more than just Super Cena to face off against those two guys. The fans want to see Bryan, Punk, Ryder and the others get the rub that Cena has been getting for the last ten years. That is why they revolted last night, they want change and they want it now. Vince gave it to them in a weird sorta of way with Rock saying he is coming back and Brock returning as well as giving Bryan the mic at the end. I do know if Vince has gotten the full message, but it sorta looked like it at the end that shockingly only the Internet saw.

    (edited by lotjx on 3.4.12 1350)


Good comparison to Civil War Cap and Tony (from the guy who made the Superman/Batman comparison).

If they wanna keep Cena face, he just has to realize that he's being used by the machine to be their poster boy. Unfortunately, the face of the machine is Johnny L, but nobody believes he has any real power because even the most detached marks know that the McMahon's and HHH are really in charge.

And this takes us right back to the botching of Summer of Punk because HHH wants to be the man. Had we had HHH run with the ball as a heel, we could have Cena realising Punk was right all along and a shift into a new era.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#64 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.79
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Yeah, it's not like he became a freakishly good professional wrestler with intangible physical charisma in a matter of months or anything.

    Oh wait.


There was also the small matter of him being the biggest PPV draw in the world for the last five years. (Or second -- #1 was at WM24.)


    Originally posted by samoflange
    The video of his post-Raw promo is surreal when I think about how unlikely of a WWE star he seemed to be at first. He will be a fantastic badass Bret Hart-style babyface someday, but I hope the reaction tonight was just a one-off crowd thing since he's got lots of heeling to do first.


Much like Punk being turned babyface by running the ultimate heel angle in tearing down the company, I think Bryan's face turn is inevitable. I guess it depends on how much of the sympathy/affection for him carries beyond last night, but sometimes guys are turned because the crowd is so thoroughly charmed by their heel performance, like Eddie Guerrero the liar cheater thief.

Just as the top two Wrestlemania matches were booked on last year's Raw after Mania, I think after this you gotta go with a by-then-babyface Bryan vs. Sheamus III: "This Time For Sure" next year. Not even kidding. It could become career-defining adversity for Bryan. Not that he'd literally say "I was booked to lose in 18 seconds instead of getting to put on a great match," but something the audience still 'knows' was real and emotionally true.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    a much creepier turn for Jericho/Punk. I have stated before, I am not a fan of this at all. It seems like going into the toilet instead of having a feud about wrestling.


"This has no place in wrestling!" - some straightlaced announcer as they run the exact same angle in the '60s

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    I wonder if the original plan(s) for Jericho/Punk had Jericho losing the clean, technical match at 'Mania and only then coming out the next night to start the Punk's family/road to drug abuse to get them to Extreme Rules? That would kind of make a little more sense, though I like what they're doing with it now.


I believe you're exactly right. I think I said the same thing when they first went there, it seems like the kind of direction you take to relaunch things after the first match -- Jericho lost the BITW challenge, but now Punk wants to fight him even more. But they traded in on that a little early to heat up the Mania match.


    Man, Lord Tensai was a lot more retro than I was expecting.


Very reminiscent of Umaga's debut six years ago. "Wild Samoan savages in 2000 and 6? This, the age of 'You Tube'?" I hope Tensai achieves similar transcendence. Then in four more years, two young, svelte A-Train twins can talk about not being stereotypical Japanese ruffians.


    The whole Lesnar appearance was amazing. There was a moment towards the back end of Cena's speech where he looked down and over at someone and quickly nodded, and I'm dying to know if the person was telling him "OK, they know it's Brock, cut to the chase" or "This is wild, stretch it out some more"


Along those lines, right before the "Next Big Ding" leitmotif struck, Cena pointed into the crowd. Was he encouraging the "Rocky" chant, or was he pointing right at the BROCK IS BACK / WE WANT LESNAR signs as if to say "watch this"? John Cena is a pretty awesome dude. Not sure anyone besides him or Punk would've taken the time out to shoutout Daniel Bryan.

For all the big moments we talk about that would've been so much better with Jim Ross calling them, namely all the big moments, for once it felt right to have Cole, the voice of Brock, doing the honors. NOT FUH NUTHIN'.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    He does shove the sick kids in our face. Like that Children's Miracle shirt that he wears and the hour fluff piece we got last week. Cena like Stark is using all that charity work to hide behind the fact he is the machine.


Analogies are fun but some things in life are a little bigger than the wrong fake wrestling man winning.

    Originally posted by SchippeWreck
    Earlier, I blamed the crowd for messing up the storytelling of the final segment, but after a rewatch, I think it was more Cena.


I think Cena ignoring the chant would've tipped their hands even more, but I don't think it was supposed to be a state secret, more of a known unknown. Brock was spotted throughout the weekend when they could've gone greath lengths to hide him. They didn't confiscate Brock signs. WWE even tweeted that he was here right before he came out.
lotjx
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#65 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.18
I do think HHH coming back and beating Punk was probably the worst booking decision they did last year. Luckily for everyone Punk had the full support of the MSG crowd who made his title win feel special. Kinda of a weird reboot of the Summer of Punk II. If had Punk won and had Nash accidentally attack HHH and go from there. It would have changed nothing from what we got and probably lead to a better idea than HHH/Punk vs. The Awesome Truth.

The one person who should have pulled the Captain America turn was probably Taker. He is the most respected guy in the back and the one most fans would think would be all for ending someone like Punk. If he said No and told HHH to go to hell in the fall only to eat a pedigree, it may have added another layer to the feud. Unfortunately, he was out hurt and really the match at Mania didn't need it.

I will say, bringing up the sick kids was in response to someone else. Yes, we all love Cena doing the Miracle Network and he should be respected and cheered for it. Yes, it is bigger than wrestling and rightfully so. And Yes, its not the greatest analogy, but it sorta works for what we are discussing plus that one hour special was all about cheer for Cena or you like killing kittens.

(edited by lotjx on 3.4.12 1532)


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BigDaddyLoco
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#66 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.13
I like the potential of the Cena character more now than I have in awhile. Having the silly Kane angle makes a little more sense if they keep with the whole Cena might not have super powers after all vibe they have going. He lost a match that 'he could not lose' and he got waffled by Brock, there are suddenly chinks in the mighty armor.

I don't think Cena has to fully embrace the hate and tell the fans off, but if they give him this aura of vulnerability and a little self doubt it could go a long ways. Have him get a little too physical with someone like The Miz. Have him hold a choke hold until the five count so the ref has to call for a break and then have him kind of back off like wait I'm John Cena I don't do this. It would add a much needed layer to show him battling with himself. Bret Hart added a figure four around the ring post, and not only was it awesome every time he did it, because Bret Hart doesn't do stuff like that, but it showed he was sick of taking people's shit.

I thought they were going to have him dabble in this sort of thing during the Punk feud, but then he pretty much stole the belt off of Rey and went back to being the same old John Cena. The guy has no self awareness.



(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 3.4.12 1638)
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#67 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.79
    Originally posted by lotjx
    I will say, bringing up the sick kids was in response to someone else.


Whoops, I see that. Sorry about that, I lost the thread of that conversation 'cause I stopped reading comics after X-Men: Onslaught.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 3.4.12 1641)
Llakor
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#68 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.67
    Originally posted by dwaters
    It's wrestling, even storyline Cena should know that nobody interrupts a promo to walk down and shake your hand and have a friendly chat.




To be fair, Cena just finished a year-long feud with a guy who talked at him rather than attack him. His Spidey-Sense may be a little rusty.



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Since: 2.11.02
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#69 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.69
    Originally posted by Shapiro
    There was also the small matter of him being the biggest PPV draw in the world for the last five years. (Or second -- #1 was at WM24.)

You referring to UFC 100? Cos that's some funky logic that would lead you call Lesnar the biggest PPV draw in the world based on that. GSP (among others) was on the 'undercard' and regularly accounts for an extra half million buys when he fights. Plus you had Bisping v Henderson coming off their stint on TUF.

Pacquiao and Mayweather kick Brock's ass a bit if you're talking about what individual has the biggest impact on PPV rates.

Brock's clearly a draw - and a really big draw at that - but I'd take a hang of a lot of convincing he's the biggest PPV draw in the world.

Actually hang on - "the world"? UFC events are free in a few countries (including the UK) so....yeah...definitely gonna need convincing sir.

I appreciate I've contributed zero to the RAW discussion here but my knowledge of Civil War era Captain America isn't up to scratch
In the interest of offering something on topic, I enjoyed the show, thought Rock was awesome, the crowd was even better, and Cena did indeed look like a douche for not resisting the F5 at all.
Taff
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Since: 29.7.03
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#70 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
Yes! = New What!

Rock title run? 4-5 months time? Could be very interesting.

They cheered Ziggler when he attacked Swagger and not the other way round and now Funkasaurus has tag matches to improve his skills. Great booking.

Hi A-Train, you shaved.

No manager please for Henry, I like to hear him talk both out and in-ring as it works for the character and kudos to Henry for his match with Punk, he held his own there.

That was a waste of good Jack Daniels. You think Jericho will get some of the APA sets out of storage to just drive Punk even more nuts.

The crowd on Shat on Del Rio and Sheamus, which again I'll say it's not their fault. Lets hope Bryan does something painful to both during their match on Smackdown

I consider Show and Rhodes feud to now be closed.

Great Power play by the Hoeski I'd like her to get close not to Laurenitis but to Ortunga and see what happens.

Miz is winning again

Cena acknowledges the storyline although he was sort of painted into a corner by the crowd

Nice touch from Brock kicking the baseball cap at the end.

(edited by Taff on 3.4.12 2219)


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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#71 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.79
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by Shapiro
      There was also the small matter of him being the biggest PPV draw in the world for the last five years. (Or second -- #1 was at WM24.)

    Cos that's some funky logic that would lead you call Lesnar the biggest PPV draw in the world based on that. GSP (among others) was on the 'undercard' and regularly accounts for an extra half million buys when he fights. Plus you had Bisping v Henderson coming off their stint on TUF.

    Pacquiao and Mayweather kick Brock's ass a bit if you're talking about what individual has the biggest impact on PPV rates.


I just wanted to phrase it to make a cute reference to Mayweather (WM24) but yeah, Pacquiao would be ahead of him too.
Lord of the Manor
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Since: 24.2.03
From: London, United Kingdom

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#72 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
Alllll this Cena talk. I'm ready to start booing this thread.

Considering I hated the way the show opened, I was actually glad to have stayed up to see this through for once. Usually when I stay up to watch RAW (like when Jericho returned) I ended up regretting it. Not this time. That crowd was amaaaaaaaaaaazing and they had a great show to work with.

I was actually kind of disappointed that Jericho injected himself back into the title scene after that great bout between Punk and Henry. I was convinced that was going to kick off a feud between the two of them. I've been totally underwhelmed by Jericho since his return. I loved the finish to their WM match, but I don't really seeing them topping it and Jericho tapped out. Where does it really go now?

And yes, that Lord Tensai debut was seriously old school. I have a feeling this character will evolve before it settles but I'm just glad we're not being treated to all that back hair again.

Coming out of Miami it seems the Miz is out of the doghouse as they begin to rehabilitate his character. The same can't be said for poor Zack Ryder. It's really a shame that they have buried him so badly.

On a similar note, I worry for Daniel Bryan. If what happened in Miami spreads, Sheamus' reign is dead in the water. It got off to a horrible start to begin with thanks to that joke of a match at WM and last night was night the kind of reception the company wants for who they hope to become one of their top faces. Of course, that doesn't change that fact that what the crowd did last night was spectacular. It had to mean a lot to Bryan after he got short-changed at WM and he certainly deserves that. And I think it has come from appreciating what he can do in the ring and how he built his character but then took on a whole new emphasis due to how Bryan was dicked over at WM. A clear message was sent but I wonder how management will react. That he was barely booked for the show and ate the pin in the dark match isn't exactly encouraging.

Of course the company should get behind it. The Yes! and subsequent No! chants are a far better way for the crowds to interact with the performances than those damn "what?" chants and anything that actively involves the crowd should be better for business and, as we saw last night, make for better television. Still, I worry Bryan could end up in Ryderville.

Brock coming out was the icing on the cake for me, at this point at 4am. I thought it was a terrific return. I don't care about Cena not resisting the F5. It was a great scene and again, the crowd enhanced the effect.

For the record, I see Cena going on a losing streak with Lesnar hanging over his head one way or another throughout it. I think this streak will last the majority of the year and head to the big showdown with Brock at WM29.



(edited by Lord of the Manor on 3.4.12 2238)



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Since: 17.1.02
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#73 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.97
The reason why Cena didn't resist the F5 is because he thought Lesnar would do it immediately. But because Brock is TOTALLY FAT and OUT OF SHAPE, Lesnar had to pause and make sure he wouldn't blow up. BTW, I had to rewind and watch that Brock entrance 3 or 4 times, because the crowd was so happy to just hear the music again. And this was from a crowd that mostly knew they would get him, and they still popped like they were genuinely surprised.

This was an excellent Raw with obviously the crowd of the (young) year. It's not like they were just a heel crowd either. They liked Brodus, Punk and Ryder, as well as heels like Bryan and Dolph.

YES! will not become the new What as the new chant. As people have said, it won't ruin every interview and as shown last night it can have some great offshoots (NO and SI). Heck, I doubt the crowd in 3 weeks will be acting like this Miami crowd, much less 3 years or more down the line.

(edited by Torchslasher on 3.4.12 1438)


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#74 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.57
How different would things have turned out if they'd just hidden Brock in plain sight all weekend by making him wear the Lord Tensai costume all over Miami?

Also, Otunga should eventually step forward as the guy who got Lord Tensai back in WWE, and we should eventually get to see Otunga's office, which would only have cushions on the floor and no chairs or seats, and he can make Ace take his shoes off before coming in. Plus, we learn that it's tea in his travel coffee mug.

    Originally posted by Taff
    The crowd on Shat on Del Rio and Sheamus, which again I'll say it's not their fault. Lets hope Bryan does something painful to both during their match on Smackdown
The very brief Miz/Riley*/Del Rio/Ricardo love-hate alliance was fun last year. An uneasy alliance between Del Rio and Bryan wouldn't be the worst idea in the world for a few weeks. Either Del Rio gets a little bit of a rub from Bryan or people dislike Alberto enough that it reminds people that Bryan is evil. It also gets us Bryan/Ricardo segments, lets "SI! SI! SI!" stick around, sets up super creepy Ricard/AJ sidekick interaction, gives Daniel Bryan (the New Age Randy Savage) his own Ted DiBiase to hang around and lets Alberto talk about his rooms full of expensive giant flatscreens so Bryan can brag about not owning a TV.

*I feel like the fact that ALEX RILEY IS PROBABLY BLIND FOREVER NOW is really getting glossed over here.
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#75 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.68
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
      Originally posted by lotjx
      I have to take expectation to Cena is Captain America in Civil War. I'll try not get too nerdy about this, but I guess I am not the only one making Bats and Sups analogy, so I digress. During Civil War, when the government said they were going after the heroes, everyone expected including SHIELD that Cap would be the one leading it. Cap said No, it was wrong and put him against the machine that made him. He was the one that delivered one of the best speeches given by Mark Twain to Peter about telling the government to move when they were wrong. Cena is not doing that. Cena is Tony Stark.

      He believes what he is doing is right, because its what the machine wants and if he makes a bit of profit out of it like say new shirt each month, so be it. The man is going to have his own Green Lantern Rainbow Corp of shirts before its done. He does shove the sick kids in our face. Like that Children's Miracle shirt that he wears and the hour fluff piece we got last week. Cena like Stark is using all that charity work to hide behind the fact he is the machine. Yes, he may play around with cool characters like Ryder, but look what happens to them afterwards. Ryder is a joke. Cena did no favors for Ryder when they were together and took giant beatdowns for him. Ryder is the Peter Parker of this thing. Hell, he even lost the girl to WWE's boring Mephisto. Cena losing should have been the moment where he turned against the machine and said "Screw it, I am doing what the people want." He did not and just like Tony, he won't.

      If anyone is Cap its Punk and that is a giant stretch. Punk was part of the system even though he was viewed as a second stringer. He did win titles, but was not a major thought. He did tell the machine to go to hell and has lead a movement against the machine. That photo of him and the new generation in the fall in was the Civil War team. Those guys all lost at Mania minus Punk. The machine thought this was a good idea and then the people revolted. Last night and the night before sent the message. We know what we want and if we don't get it, get ready to be YES out of the building. And we do get it, we will love you for it. Granted, how long will the Brock/Rock euphoria last is up to the WWE, but they need more than just Super Cena to face off against those two guys. The fans want to see Bryan, Punk, Ryder and the others get the rub that Cena has been getting for the last ten years. That is why they revolted last night, they want change and they want it now. Vince gave it to them in a weird sorta of way with Rock saying he is coming back and Brock returning as well as giving Bryan the mic at the end. I do know if Vince has gotten the full message, but it sorta looked like it at the end that shockingly only the Internet saw.

      (edited by lotjx on 3.4.12 1350)


    Good comparison to Civil War Cap and Tony (from the guy who made the Superman/Batman comparison).

    If they wanna keep Cena face, he just has to realize that he's being used by the machine to be their poster boy. Unfortunately, the face of the machine is Johnny L, but nobody believes he has any real power because even the most detached marks know that the McMahon's and HHH are really in charge.

    And this takes us right back to the botching of Summer of Punk because HHH wants to be the man. Had we had HHH run with the ball as a heel, we could have Cena realising Punk was right all along and a shift into a new era.


Maybe I've missed something here, but since when in WWE storyline has the WWE been refered to as the bad guy for marketing a kid friendly wrestler? Seems to fantasy booking for me.

As it stands, Cena is still the same character, and as evidenced by the return of Brock, who the fans were singing "Hey Hey Hey, Goodbye" to the last time he was in a WWE ring after stinking up the ring with Goldberg (and who people were calling stale), maybe time off would do him better than character evolution.



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Since: 2.11.02
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#76 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.69
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by dMr
        Originally posted by Shapiro
        There was also the small matter of him being the biggest PPV draw in the world for the last five years. (Or second -- #1 was at WM24.)

      Cos that's some funky logic that would lead you call Lesnar the biggest PPV draw in the world based on that. GSP (among others) was on the 'undercard' and regularly accounts for an extra half million buys when he fights. Plus you had Bisping v Henderson coming off their stint on TUF.

      Pacquiao and Mayweather kick Brock's ass a bit if you're talking about what individual has the biggest impact on PPV rates.


    I just wanted to phrase it to make a cute reference to Mayweather (WM24) but yeah, Pacquiao would be ahead of him too.
Oh. The Mayweather/WM24 reference went straight over my head. Now that you've explained it, it *is* very cute. But hey, if you have to explain it then, well, there's every chance your audience is an idiot. Damn.

ekedolphin
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#77 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.12
If you turn Cena into a "real" heel, you run the risk of the smarks starting to cheer him, and you crush the dreams of the kiddies, including the sick kids suffering from leukemia and struggling to hold onto life in the children's hospitals.

If he would JUST STOP SMIRKING I'd have no problem with him, actually. I wouldn't cheer him, but I think he's a talented wrestler and a really great guy.

The Cena/Lesnar feud is gonna be fantastic. Good to see Punk/Jericho is continuing. I'd love to see Punk/Bryan, Punk/Henry and Punk/Lesnar as future feuds. Or how about Lesnar/Henry? So many fantastic feud ideas they haven't done yet. When's the draft?



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#78 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    When's the draft?
Do you really need a draft when you have the same WWE Commissioner - sorry, general manager - overseeing both shows?



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#79 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.18
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by ekedolphin
      When's the draft?
    Do you really need a draft when you have the same WWE Commissioner - sorry, general manager - overseeing both shows?


No, we don't. Yet, I saw one dirt sheet report saying Vince is thinking about moving Cena to Smackdown. Could be BS, but the draft is starting to become an annual thing even though, so I could see them trying to do it. Even though it has not been necessary for a long time.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.











Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
CruelAngel777
Landjager








Since: 7.4.02

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#80 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
I love that this thread has allusions to comic books in it. Albert stole Great Muta's entrance attire!
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Well... When he debuted in WCW, Former Alliance Superstar Mark Jindrak came in with a "Too Edgy For The NCAA" gimmick that was just SO stupid, they totally had me believing it was real.
- Ubermonkeys, Basketball Players/Wrestlers ? (2002)
Related threads: RAW Supershow #984 3/26/12 - Raw Supershow #983 3/19/12 - Raw Supershow #982 3/12/12 - More...
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