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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW Supershow #969 12/19/11 (Page 3)
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Hokienautic
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Since: 2.1.02
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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.01
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Well, Jericho DID almost find out who the anonymous RAW general manager was. Plus, Laurianitis had this Twitter conversation during the Slammys:



    Then again, wasn't it the F4W folks who wanted us to notice the name crossed off on the front of the notebook?




I have no idea what the notebook or the crossed-off name is supposed to signify.
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.83
"Chris" crosse dout could be a reborn Jericho or a sneaky sign that it's not him.
wannaberockstar
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Since: 7.3.02
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    "Chris" crosse dout could be a reborn Jericho or a sneaky sign that it's not him.


Either that or it's a sign of a future Raw Guest Host appearance by Kris Kross. ;)
Spiraling_Shape
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Since: 2.1.02
From: PA

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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.11
"WWE Underdogs, This Is Your Moment"
By The Masked Man for Grantland:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7374363/wwe-underdogs-your-moment



"Ice cream bars! Ice cream bars!" - RAW crowd, Boston, 7/11/11
CHAPLOW
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Since: 14.5.04
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.64
Highlight of the night for me was Mark Henry getting a sexual chocolate chant. How loud was that live? j/w



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Tyler Durden
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Since: 22.2.04
From: Frankfurt, Germany

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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.10
Oh no:

(from gerweck.net)

The 12/19 Raw main event of WWE champion CM Punk, United States champion Zack Ryder and World Heavyweight champ Daniel Bryan vs. Alberto Del Rio, The Miz and Dolph Ziggler did a 2.67 rating (2.55 for the first half of the match), with the overrun only gaining 59,000 viewers. This may have been the lowest rated main event of a non-holiday Raw show in over a decade.

source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter


I hope this doesn't mean anything bad for Punk and/or D-Bryan as champions, like losing the belt(s) to Cena/Orton/Triple H/Big Show/Kane.
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.01
    Originally posted by Tyler Durden
    Oh no:

    (from gerweck.net)

    The 12/19 Raw main event of WWE champion CM Punk, United States champion Zack Ryder and World Heavyweight champ Daniel Bryan vs. Alberto Del Rio, The Miz and Dolph Ziggler did a 2.67 rating (2.55 for the first half of the match), with the overrun only gaining 59,000 viewers. This may have been the lowest rated main event of a non-holiday Raw show in over a decade.

    source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter


    I hope this doesn't mean anything bad for Punk and/or D-Bryan as champions, like losing the belt(s) to Cena/Orton/Triple H/Big Show/Kane.


They area also forgetting that Monday Night Football posted and 11.7 rating. One of the highest ever. They at least gained viewers in the overrun, I'd be concerned if they lost viewers.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.







Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by Tyler Durden
    Oh no:

    (from gerweck.net)

    The 12/19 Raw main event of WWE champion CM Punk, United States champion Zack Ryder and World Heavyweight champ Daniel Bryan vs. Alberto Del Rio, The Miz and Dolph Ziggler did a 2.67 rating (2.55 for the first half of the match), with the overrun only gaining 59,000 viewers. This may have been the lowest rated main event of a non-holiday Raw show in over a decade.

    source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter


    I hope this doesn't mean anything bad for Punk and/or D-Bryan as champions, like losing the belt(s) to Cena/Orton/Triple H/Big Show/Kane.


I don't think it'll hurt Punk, who has drawn decent ratings against more established talent, but it could be the excuse they need to bury Danielson and Ryder. To be fair, Ryder is just establishing himself as a mid-card act, and Bryan has been losing constantly since he won MITB and was just beat clean by Henry like two weeks ago. He doesn't cut promos and we know nothing about him or his career. AND Cole buried them all on commentary not in the heel tradition of Ventura or Heenan, but by saying they weren't stars and were an embarrassment to the company. AND they went up two heels who never beat anyone and get buried by the main event talent (ADR, Miz) and another heel who wins a lot but has virtually no history of main events or wins over main eventers (Ziggler).



(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 22.12.11 1612)


Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
graves9
Landjager








Since: 19.2.10
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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.44
    Originally posted by lotjx
      Originally posted by Tyler Durden
      Oh no:

      (from gerweck.net)

      The 12/19 Raw main event of WWE champion CM Punk, United States champion Zack Ryder and World Heavyweight champ Daniel Bryan vs. Alberto Del Rio, The Miz and Dolph Ziggler did a 2.67 rating (2.55 for the first half of the match), with the overrun only gaining 59,000 viewers. This may have been the lowest rated main event of a non-holiday Raw show in over a decade.

      source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter


      I hope this doesn't mean anything bad for Punk and/or D-Bryan as champions, like losing the belt(s) to Cena/Orton/Triple H/Big Show/Kane.


    They area also forgetting that Monday Night Football posted and 11.7 rating. One of the highest ever. They at least gained viewers in the overrun, I'd be concerned if they lost viewers.
The problem is for whatever reason women and children tune out whenever Punk's on the screen so that's a bit of a problem. The Raw rating has been down for months now and dipped under 3 the past three weeks. The fact that Vengeance drew the second worst PPV buy rate is on the creative team as is the fact that the Survivor Series buy rate was up from the previous years, but not the monster buy rate that was expected with The Rock wrestling. That's because the creative team made Miz and Truth look like Barry Horowitz and Iron Mike Sharp but I wouldn't rule out somebody being scapegoated. I'd guess it wouldn't be Punk, but I can't say that with 100% confidence. They should show patience and wait to see what type of rating Raw draws after MNF ends. Considering the rating and buy rates being down I can't really see the WWE Network succeeding. I don't think there's a huge hankering for more programming or a WWE network. They also think they can get it going in April and who the hell knows how they'll do that.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.77
The rating can't be too surprising when you randomly toss midcarders into a main event position one week and expect them to draw like main eventers. (I don't think they necessarily did.) People stumping for Zack Ryder and Daniel Bryan wanted them to be used better, not to be used the same but come out later in the show. The "used better" part will hopefully start now that they've already gone this far with them (so far, so good).

They can always commiserate with Rock in the late 2012 failed draws club though. Not bad company.

Observer's rundown of Daniel Bryan's perception in WWE was pretty interesting. Makes me think he'll go through ups and downs during and after this title reign but ultimately end up with a quality spot in the long run. Talent and a genuine connection with the audience will almost always win out over time, like it did with CM Punk, Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Bret Hart, and similar success stories.


    Bryan was introduced on NXT and immediately made both good and bad impressions. The wrestlers for the most part all liked him. The fans saw him as the star of the first season of the show. But Vince McMahon didn’t see a star in him, and kept saying that there was no money in him. They booked him to lose almost every match because they wanted to do a legitimate contest but also book it so that the people they thought should be in the spotlight would win at the end. The reason he was pulled from NXT and eliminated early was because the voting was legitimate and there was a fear in a real poll, that he would get the points to win and he wasn’t seen as having the potential to be a star that the others, such as Wade Barrett or David Otunga, had. ...

    But unlike Kaval, who carried himself like he was somebody because he had success in Japan, and they felt at his size walking around and acting like a star and tough guy was a joke, Bryan was very well-liked. The agents loved him. The wrestlers respected him and wanted to work with him and put him over and wanted him to look good. He was praised for his work ethic and privately some thought he would eventually be a superstar, and was compared to Chris Benoit, a name that can’t be used, but was an example of a guy who had a long career as one of the top guys in the business, was considered too small to be in the major leagues (size definitions being different in his era) and had to struggle with being labeled badly in both WCW and WWF, but eventually became a top star and was one of the two most respected stars in the company before the last weekend of his life. The idea was Bryan would wind up as a player because talent eventually makes it, but would probably struggle and have to overcome a lot of perceptions and adversity before he got there. ...

    When the writers would come up with ideas past the obvious feud with Miz at first, Vince would temper them by saying the guy isn’t money. It was never Vince saw him like Kaval. Bryan was always going to win the title and the plan was at WrestleMania at first, but then it changed to Elimination Chamber, and had changed again. But the entire Michael Cole dynamic that people hate is Vince’s idea that the only way Bryan could be over is as this nerd character who eventually, like in Revenge of the Nerds, on occasion he gets his big triumphs and sticks it in the oppressing bully’s face.
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.01
I think the article also shows how out of touch Vince is. Revenge of the Nerds, Really? I love 80s movies too, but who about American Ninja with Daniel Bryan as the star. Why not make him a legit star? I think we also have to remember Bryan was fired too for doing something that everyone thought was pretty damn awesome. Which oh by the way sold Nexus more than anything else they did during that first attack. I think if anything we should enjoy this time with Bryan as champ.





The Wee Baby Sheamus.







Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
Big G
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Since: 21.8.03
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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.23
I look forward to Daniel Bryan dressing up as Darth Vader and fooling Stephanie into having sex with him.
Wpob
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Since: 21.11.02
From: Williston Park, NY

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#53 Posted on
    Originally posted by Big G
    I look forward to Daniel Bryan dressing up as Darth Vader and fooling Stephanie into having sex with him.


Count me in for that too. Although I see HHH as more of the Ogre character and less of the Stan Gable character.



Life is hilariously cruel.







Dr Unlikely
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Since: 2.1.02

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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.54
That seriously is a kind of fascinating look at how needlessly difficult the company makes things for their talent and for themselves.

I mean, I get the idea of why they feel that way to an extent when it comes to ego, but the logic cycle of "Danielson doesn't act like a star, which is good, but it's bad!" vs. "Low-Ki acts like a star, which is good, but it's bad!" must be a nightmare to navigate.

And the whole attitude that it sounds like Vince talks himself into - "I don't believe this guy will ever be a star, and I really wish everyone watching him on this show would stop voting for him and asking to see him on TV, don't they realize that he can't be a star that people would vote for and want to see on TV?" - is sad, in both the sense that they really are pathetic and out-of-touch (arguably the truest think that Punk was allowed to get in on TV this year) and depressing for the talent and the people who like them.

I hope, someday soon, they realize that the ratings right now are completely the fault of the company. They do nothing to transition these guys into main event draws capable of being ratings hits because they don't "give the rub" to anybody anymore. If Punk is meant to be the New Top Guy (or at least share that spot with Cena), you have to give him the big win that says you mean it, and they never did. He never got the clean win over Orton, Cena or HHH - the three guys (along with Undertaker) who have had years and years and years of the comapny saying THIS GUY MATTERS behind them - that he should have had if they really mean it. The difference between Cena costing himself the match at MITB and Punk just getting the win and proving himself as Cena's equal IS meaningful. It's the difference between the first time they tried to say "HHH is as good as Austin/Foley/Rock!" and the times they tried the same after giving him three consecutive wins over Foley or putting him over Austin in Three Stages of Hell or whatever.

Same with Bryan. People liked him, wanted to see him, voted for him. WWE's response was "Nah, you don't like him, you just don't know it yet, but don't worry, we'll show you why." You can't do that, then slap the title on him the way they did and assume that everything you did in the middle with losing streaks and constantly calling the guy not worthy of being there means he can instantly be as successful as Cena/Orton/HHH or even Punk. If you actively, intentionally set out to undermine fan interest in a person, you can't be shocked when it turns out you've undermined that same interest.

All that said, I think there's still a chance they stick with Punk/Bryan at the top despite the ratings because of how dependable they are as perfomers, because Cena (the obvious panic plan) is already engaged elsewhere for the next few months and because Punk being Punk really does seem to have kicked Vince in the ass and made him pay attention to fan feedback. And the good thing about that is, if they just follow logic and do the most simple, basic, popular fight story in the history of western civilization (David vs. Goliath), Bryan is good enough that he can still force his way into being accepted, like Rey before him, only with more kicking and choking and better facial hair.

But they need to learn two lessons from this:

One: they are not capable of running a Losing Streak angle. Ever. Full Stop. They can do the part where they have the guy lose a lot fine. They can do the part where they have the announcers point out "Hey, this guy is a loser!" quite well, it turns out. But they never get around to the payoff, either becuase they lose interest or because, somehow, they rorget that they're the ones who are scripting the guy to lose and scripting the announcer to say "this guy stinks" and instead seem to just say "Hey, this guy loses and stinks, why were we going to push him?"

Two: you gotta put people over for real. I think Punk is both smart enough and charismatic enough to have danced around the fact that he never got the "clean" win over Cena, never got any payback on Nash and actually lost to HHH, but imagine how much more momentum he'd have if he'd gotten to do even one of those things? Or if Bryan comes into his first championship reign having beaten a monster like Show or Henry? Or if Barrett gets a real, meaningful win over *anybody* during the last year? If they're going to move Ziggler or Rhodes up, they have to own it by giving them a meaningful sign to the fans, and that means putting them over someone who the fans already believe matters.

There are positive signs there, though. Cena, the person, obviously wants to see talented people get moved up. I give him a lot of credit for going out of his way to let people know on air how much he likes Ryder and Bourne and for letting Punk tee off on him (even if he made that stupid CenaFace). I don't blame him for the fact that company is afraid to ever have him look anything other than invincible, and I bet he knows it would actually be good business.

And Orton doesn't get enough credit for taking a relative back seat this year (all the while upping his in-ring performance, at that!). He's quietly gone from #2 guy/co-#1 guy to arguably being behind Cena, Punk and HHH, while also giving Henry those big, meaningful wins that helped Henry be reborn as a legit main event guy in the eyes of fans. That's the real thing I'd love to see them take away from this: Henry getting those wins over Orton meant *everything* to Mark Henry and his perception among viewers, and it took *nothing* away from Orton, who could still provide the fan interest for a main event feud against anybody in the company tomorrow if they wanted him to do it.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.24
I think the WWE has to be content with being the dominant promotion on TV. Unless they stumble into a hot, hot angle that captures the zeitgeist, they will be, for the majority of the general TV audience, That Wrestling Show.

They are the name-brand of a product that sells in moderate quantities. They are not a necessity nor a must-have luxury. And tey will have a regular audience of fairly dependable numbers. They've been on Mondays at 9 for more than a decade. People know where they are and basically what to expect. They're the potato chips of the well-stocked snack pantry. Sometimes you got a taste for it, sometimes not. Best they can be is good when people get that yen. And having another face champ vs. the bad boss just tells that curious channel-flipping audience that the company is doing the same old same old. That's when "dependable" becomes "boring."

We like Rock. Rock is fun. But Rock is not an A-list movie star. He never was. He doesn't have the celebrity gravity to tilt the mainstream audience toward RAW. Punk can't do it. Ryder can't do it. No one on that roster can. Just be good when that audience window shops. That's the best the WWE can hope for.





"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.77

    One: they are not capable of running a Losing Streak angle. Ever. Full Stop. They can do the part where they have the guy lose a lot fine. They can do the part where they have the announcers point out "Hey, this guy is a loser!" quite well, it turns out. But they never get around to the payoff, either becuase they lose interest or because, somehow, they rorget that they're the ones who are scripting the guy to lose and scripting the announcer to say "this guy stinks" and instead seem to just say "Hey, this guy loses and stinks, why were we going to push him?"


the best part of a great Unlikely post
it should be a macro that automatically runs in the "now trending" box each time Bryan/Morrison/Otunga&McGillicutty/DiBiase/McIntyre start to get negative momentum.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.84
Big Show has moved into that stage of his career where he seems happy to put guys over, so if we're lucky, maybe he's lobbying to let himself be tapped out by the Lebell Lock at the Royal Rumble. That would INSTANTLY legitimize Bryan's title reign and give him the 'beats Big Show' moment that Henry unfortunately never received.



"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." --- Bart Giamatti, on baseball
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.96
Read it and weep, fella


Dr. Unlikely: That was one of the best, well-written posts I have seen in a long time and I agree whole-heartedly with 99.99% of everything you said. Here's the 0.01% I want to nitpick:


    Same with Bryan. People liked him, wanted to see him, voted for him. WWE's response was "Nah, you don't like him, you just don't know it yet, but don't worry, we'll show you why."
In WWE's defense (I cant believe I just typed that, please forgive me), I think they were afraid of a "vote for the worst" situation, like American Idol had with that Sanjaiya(sp?) kid a couple years ago.

I also think they planned in advance to push the eventual winner to the moon (leader of the Nexus, maybe?) while keeping anyone else they liked around too, even before they knew who the legit winner would be. When Bryan started getting all those votes, I dont think they saw him being able to fit into the push they already had in mind, so they made him lose. And in their defense again (!), if I didnt already know who he was beforehand (and saw him wrestle in person as American Dragon in 2002-ish?), I wouldnt have picked him for any kind of big push back then either. And in all honesty, he would've been a bad choice as Leader of the Nexus (Vroom! Vroooom!).

Maybe instead of killing him off, they could've still given the Nexus Leader spot to Barrett, but also given him a separate parallel push, which is kinda what they did anyway after he came back from his Choking Suspension (Remember when everyone thought that was a work? Good times).

So yeah.



CLICK OR DIE
Dr Unlikely
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.54
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Big Show has moved into that stage of his career where he seems happy to put guys over, so if we're lucky, maybe he's lobbying to let himself be tapped out by the Lebell Lock at the Royal Rumble. That would INSTANTLY legitimize Bryan's title reign and give him the 'beats Big Show' moment that Henry unfortunately never received.

I agree re: Big Show's attitude and where he sees himself in the company. I've only ever gotten that sense from the guy, honestly, he just seems to get how that part of the business works.

Bryan getting the Lebell Lock submission on a post-slow-burn-insane Show (and he really did a nice job starting the slow burn this week) is the exact spot they should be building to right now, since they can't do the "Lebell Lock on Mark Henry as Mark Henry keeps yelling 'Steal my air I'll steal your life!' over and over until passing out" spot while he's hurt.

I do, though, think that the moment that Henry needed - and got - was at Night of Champions, when he shrugged off the final RKO attempt and just slammed him to win the belt.

    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    In WWE's defense (I cant believe I just typed that, please forgive me), I think they were afraid of a "vote for the worst" situation, like American Idol had with that Sanjaiya(sp?) kid a couple years ago.

    I also think they planned in advance to push the eventual winner to the moon (leader of the Nexus, maybe?) while keeping anyone else they liked around too, even before they knew who the legit winner would be. When Bryan started getting all those votes, I dont think they saw him being able to fit into the push they already had in mind, so they made him lose. And in their defense again (!), if I didnt already know who he was beforehand (and saw him wrestle in person as American Dragon in 2002-ish?), I wouldnt have picked him for any kind of big push back then either. And in all honesty, he would've been a bad choice as Leader of the Nexus (Vroom! Vroooom!).

Oh, I agree, the ironic vote for the worst guy IS a valid concern, absolutely, and there's no way they can let the voting be legit for those kinds of shows for the long-term planning reasons you note. Frankly, I would have chosen Barrett to win over Bryan myself if I'd have known the Nexus angle was a possibility, because Barrett was perfect for it. Really, he's the better NXT winner anyway, since he stood to gain the most from it on the nature of his character alone, and he's certainly a really talented guy in his own right.

It's not the voting Bryan off issue, it's the losing streak they gave him, and the one they gave Kaval the next year, where they specifically and intentionally set out to make them both look like losers when they simply could have just lied about voting or had Cole or the Mystery GM or Cole's Gong arbitrarily cut them from NXT. The losing streak made Kaval look like a joke - which I guess was the intent - that he couldn't recover from.

Bryan recovered due to the unusual circumstances from his firing, the "Dan-iel Bry-an!" chants that hung on and giving him a perfect return at The Summerfest. He seemed to be on a nice, slow build with the feud with Miz, but then they just kinda backed off and had him lose a lot again on both sides of his Money In The Bank win, and that's the part I'm really talking about, since you're having a guy constantly get called a loser and then giving the audience visual proof of it, only to turn around and put the belt on him without giving him the moment where he proves people wrong. That's the counterproductive part of it that they really need to avoid in the future for Bryan, Barrett, Ziggler and Rhodes, and the kind of thing they need to keep in mind when they start the process of rehabbing Del Rio as a champion.
Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    Bryan recovered due to the unusual circumstances from his firing, the "Dan-iel Bry-an!" chants that hung on and giving him a perfect return at The Summerfest. He seemed to be on a nice, slow build with the feud with Miz, but then they just kinda backed off and had him lose a lot again on both sides of his Money In The Bank win, and that's the part I'm really talking about, since you're having a guy constantly get called a loser and then giving the audience visual proof of it, only to turn around and put the belt on him without giving him the moment where he proves people wrong.


And I think the feud with Miz was really helping both guys at the time. Miz was just getting really established, and tough wins over a difficult opponent were making him look like a real contender, while Bryan was looking better just by proving he had the stuff to take an established superstar to the limits. It didn't hurt that both guys looked like they were killing each other in their matches. Then, the angle just sort of went away without a big payoff, and both guys kind of stood around for a while without anything much to do. Miz eventually went on to win the title, but I think a little bit more build for him would have helped his credibility immeasurably, especially if you'd then used Bryan as a title challenger, even just for a couple of RAWs, to show that Miz had grown beyond him into a legitimate World Champion. In fact, I would strongly argue in favor of moving Miz into a position to challenge Bryan for the World Heavyweight belt, just to do the reverse of that scenario to legitimize Bryan.
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The sad part is Taker and Kane squashed Palumbo and O'Haire ON THEIR WAY to squashing DDP and Kanyon in the same fashion, also in a steel cage. So it wasn't just a "build-up to their PPV match," it was a trend. Pleh.
Related threads: Mr. John Laurinaitis, Executive Vice President of Talent Relations & Interim General Manager of RAW - RAW Supershow #967 12/5/11 - RAW Supershow #966 11/28/11 - More...
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