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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW Supershow #967 12/5/11 (Page 2)
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El Nastio
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Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.88
Cena vs Ryder was built in such a way that it made them both look good, and I think with a better crowd it would have been more well received. Ryder not being happy with Cena's win makes perfect sense; Cena has had his chances, and will get more of them later. Ryder hasn't. Cena alludes to this later on saying that he's a "10 time former WWE champ". The only way that would have been better is if Cena was even more genre savy and said "I'll have another chance at some point".

I knew Henry was going to come out and face Ryder. What sold the match for me was Justin Robert's subdued voice when saying "and his opponent...." with the pause. I think it was Roberts who was on Z:TLIS once, and Zack asked him to start announcing his name in a better fashion. I noticed lately that Roberts has started saying "From the L.I., Long Island Iced Z, zACK, RYder", which makes the subdued intro even more pronounced.

I was expected the Big Showski to interfere, but Cena interfering works too. Before anyone complains, the AA has been done on huge dudes before, even Henry at out point earlier. What it does do is establish that Henry is so badass it took Cena to lay him out for Ryder to win.

Ryder looks weak you say? Well, how about costing Ziggler his match and laying him out after?

Makes Ziggler look weak? He held his own against Sheamus and lost due to a distraction.


Overall, I loved the direction of all of that stuff. Of course, I'm a huge Ryder mark so I'm biased.

Ziggler is the man at this point. The segment with Swagger was golden. I liked Swagger too, "Zigs , it's cool. I have you covered" and in a NICE bit of continuity "you wouldn't even be US champ right now if it wasn't for me".

Punk/Del Rio/Miz was meh, but I must admit I was legit laughing out loud when Johnny Ace said the future endouvers line.

I voted Mark Henry for superstar of the year. Dude as been simply amazing this year. I'll go so far as to say that, yes, it makes all the crap matches, terrible angles, and injury problems he used to have worth it to get this one year of amazement.

(edited by El Nastio on 6.12.11 1143)
Hokienautic
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.53
Yeah, I thought the same thing as lotjx (and I feel dirty just writing that). Given the way the story unfolded, why couldn't Cena just lay down for Ryder and give him the title shot? I get what dMp says, though, re: the sad puppy look from Ryder changing his mind, but the did a horrible job of getting that across with first telling Cena "you're not in the title match," then "you can earn your way into the title match," and finally "you'll have to forfeit your place in the title match." All in ten minutes.

Personally, I thought they were going to go in some direction with Ziggler -- which would he prefer, having to wrestle Zach Ryder, or have John Cena in the main event at TLC with him? They could have used this as an easy transition from Ziggler-Ryder to Ziggler-Cena. They still might, since Cena "caused" the match, but it's not as clear cut.
John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 123 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
    Given the way the story unfolded, why couldn't Cena just lay down for Ryder and give him the title shot?


He can't. Laying down intentionally is a heel thing*. (Heel DX, Hogan and the Finger Poke of Doom on Nash.) Babyfaces cannot lay down intentionally and forfeit matches. Especially not the paragon of virtue that John Cena is, even if it's to help out his friend Zack Ryder. He has to be fair-minded and he has to compete honorably against his friend. It's perfectly fine if he screws over Hall of Pain Inductor Angry Heel Mark Henry to help out his little buddy Zack but he cannot himself let Zack pin him dishonorably.

* For all the speculation of a John Cena heel turn, he remains as of last night about a billion WWE Universe miles from being a heel.

(edited by John Orquiola on 6.12.11 0851)


@BackoftheHead


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TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 121 days
Last activity: 4 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.63
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by TOM
      Well that was nothing compared to what they did to Ryder in one night.


    Give him like 5 segments?


If it's 5 segments that make Ryder look like a losing, whiny punk that doesn't deserve a title shot, I'd say last night was no favor. YMMV.

Sure, he 'deserves' a shot based on his previous adventures with Ziggler, but that wasn't this show. Even if they ignore this going forward because they were just using Ryder to do... whatever they think they did last night... to advance Cena's storyline - I can imagine Ryder's teeth grinding as he read over the script - there wasn't anything helping him along, other than what Cena gave him in the ring for credibility.

The crowd was below par, but they did manage to get a chant or two going for Punk - I was surprised that Ryder got a completely dead reaction coming out for the match with Cena. Maybe that's to be expected since the audience isn't conditioned for face vs face matches.

BTW.. I hope GTV was around to catch the payoff between Johnny Ace and Vince over the result of the "social experiment".





Amos Cochran
Lap cheong








Since: 28.8.09

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
The point is that Ryder's earned his title shot ten times over and J-Lau wouldn't give it to him. I thought last night was mainly a way for Ryder to get past Ace's bullshit. He looked credible in the ring against their number one guy, and got a pinfall on their monster heel. Not sure I'm seeing the negative - as with Daniel Bryan, people seem to think that if a midcard guy isn't pinning top stars left and right then he's not getting pushed.
El Nastio
Andouille








Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.88
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    The point is that Ryder's earned his title shot ten times over and J-Lau wouldn't give it to him. I thought last night was mainly a way for Ryder to get past Ace's bullshit. He looked credible in the ring against their number one guy, and got a pinfall on their monster heel. Not sure I'm seeing the negative - as with Daniel Bryan, people seem to think that if a midcard guy isn't pinning top stars left and right then he's not getting pushed.


Agreed.

And keep in mind, this is all over the US TITLE. Ryder is jumping through all these hoops to get a shot at the US. TITLE. Ziggler is jumping through hoops to avoid facing Zack Ryder, who has beaten him before, for the US TITLE.

The US Title is looking betetr than ever with all this attention on it.
John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
Zack Ryder vs. Dolph Ziggler for the US Title at TLC is official! (wwe.com)

Cue predictions of Ryder taking it. (I just may predict that myself.)



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Hokienautic
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.53
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
      Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Given the way the story unfolded, why couldn't Cena just lay down for Ryder and give him the title shot?


    He can't. Laying down intentionally is a heel thing*. (Heel DX, Hogan and the Finger Poke of Doom on Nash.) Babyfaces cannot lay down intentionally and forfeit matches. Especially not the paragon of virtue that John Cena is, even if it's to help out his friend Zack Ryder. He has to be fair-minded and he has to compete honorably against his friend. It's perfectly fine if he screws over Hall of Pain Inductor Angry Heel Mark Henry to help out his little buddy Zack but he cannot himself let Zack pin him dishonorably.

    * For all the speculation of a John Cena heel turn, he remains as of last night about a billion WWE Universe miles from being a heel.

    (edited by John Orquiola on 6.12.11 0851)


Ehhh, I disagree. I think it would be seen -- if spun properly -- as a thumb to the eye of John Laurenitis. Cena grabs a mic and says "You want a social experiment? I'm social with my boy here. I know Ima gonna get another title shot. But you keep trying to screw him over. So Johnny Ace ... here's to screwing YOU." Big smile, ring bell, lay down. Sets up a "John Cena has to earn another shot" storyline, sets up a "Dolph Ziggler is pissed at John Cena" storyline, and way down the road, it sets up a "you don't think I can beat you" storyline with Zach Ryder. It can definitely be a face move when it involves outsmarting the heel in charge.

Edit: At the very least they should have brought up that possibility, where Cena says that he can't do that out of respect for the craft, or something like that. But I still think it'd be doable.

(edited by Hokienautic on 6.12.11 1452)
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 26 min.
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Nash supposedly wanted to leave his hair grey but the 'E were having none of it.




This is a shame because Nash had the best hair in wrestling for years, and it wasn't even close.

kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 43 days
Last activity: 4 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.64
Would it kill them to get behind SOMEONE? I can take or leave Ryder (mostly because they have never given me a reason to care) but the guy was stupid over in the Garden, why not push him? Or just push SOMEONE in the mid card. It doesn’t have to be a rocket on the back push, but establish some legit upper mid card guys for crying out loud, while you still can.

If WWE continues to constantly job, or Even Steven book all these guys, how will they ever be viewed as anything besides mediocre to the casual fans? I thought Ziggler was ready after that reaction and performance at Survivor Series, but then he immediately jobbed in under a minute in the tag match 20 minutes later. They would never have done that with Bret, Perfect, Michaels, Rock, Austin, etc. as they were working their way up the card, so why do they constantly feel the need these days to make three fourths of the roster look like losers?




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 11 min.
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.27
    Originally posted by Wrestling Observer
    A funny Brodus Clay story. When he was ready to return after doing a WWE movie, and asked creative what they had planned for him, the answer they gave him is they had no idea, but suggested that he come up with an idea for himself. So he came up with the idea of being a monster heel who doesn't sell for the faces, and beats them all up and inducts them into his personal House of Pain. He was told that was a great idea.


Brodus Clay was ready to return in July. :(
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 26 min.
Last activity: 24 min.
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by Wrestling Observer
      A funny Brodus Clay story. When he was ready to return after doing a WWE movie, and asked creative what they had planned for him, the answer they gave him is they had no idea, but suggested that he come up with an idea for himself. So he came up with the idea of being a monster heel who doesn't sell for the faces, and beats them all up and inducts them into his personal House of Pain. He was told that was a great idea.


    Brodus Clay was ready to return in July. :(


I always thought being a wrestler would be awesome, but that place has got to be demoralizing to ones existence as a person. It's also one of those things they can get away with when they are the only real show in town.

Torchslasher
Knackwurst








Since: 17.1.02
From: New F'n Jersey

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 8 hours
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.91
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by John Orquiola
        Originally posted by Hokienautic
        Given the way the story unfolded, why couldn't Cena just lay down for Ryder and give him the title shot?


      He can't. Laying down intentionally is a heel thing*. (Heel DX, Hogan and the Finger Poke of Doom on Nash.) Babyfaces cannot lay down intentionally and forfeit matches. Especially not the paragon of virtue that John Cena is, even if it's to help out his friend Zack Ryder. He has to be fair-minded and he has to compete honorably against his friend. It's perfectly fine if he screws over Hall of Pain Inductor Angry Heel Mark Henry to help out his little buddy Zack but he cannot himself let Zack pin him dishonorably.

      * For all the speculation of a John Cena heel turn, he remains as of last night about a billion WWE Universe miles from being a heel.

      (edited by John Orquiola on 6.12.11 0851)


    Ehhh, I disagree. I think it would be seen -- if spun properly -- as a thumb to the eye of John Laurenitis. Cena grabs a mic and says "You want a social experiment? I'm social with my boy here. I know Ima gonna get another title shot. But you keep trying to screw him over. So Johnny Ace ... here's to screwing YOU." Big smile, ring bell, lay down. Sets up a "John Cena has to earn another shot" storyline, sets up a "Dolph Ziggler is pissed at John Cena" storyline, and way down the road, it sets up a "you don't think I can beat you" storyline with Zach Ryder. It can definitely be a face move when it involves outsmarting the heel in charge.

    Edit: At the very least they should have brought up that possibility, where Cena says that he can't do that out of respect for the craft, or something like that. But I still think it'd be doable.

    (edited by Hokienautic on 6.12.11 1452)


I think the point is that Cena really does want another title shot, even if it involves fighting and beating his friend Zack Ryder. So this seemingly makes it important to the viewer that Cena wants his title back so that he can be champion when facing the Rock at Mania. So Cena wins and we see that Cena is a man of his word. Later, when Johnny Ace forces Cena to give up his shot, we are supposed to be even MORE impressed that Cena would be selfless and give up his title shot so that Ryder can have even just one more shot. This is a way more effective babyface tactic than to lay down and let Ryder pin him.

Now if Cena lays down for Zack, Cena feels that he let the fans down by not wrestling a match that was advertised. Ryder knows that he didn't really deserve the shot because he "cheated" to get it (by just pinning Cena with no effort). And the fans hate both guys. The "lay down" scenario helps no one.



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Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 1 hour
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.99
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by Wrestling Observer
      A funny Brodus Clay story. When he was ready to return after doing a WWE movie, and asked creative what they had planned for him, the answer they gave him is they had no idea, but suggested that he come up with an idea for himself. So he came up with the idea of being a monster heel who doesn't sell for the faces, and beats them all up and inducts them into his personal House of Pain. He was told that was a great idea.


    Brodus Clay was ready to return in July. :(


Kinda sucks, but looking at it realistically they only half ripped-off a catchphrase. The monster heel push is nothing new, and Henry was obviously headed for it from June onwards.
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 12 hours
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.13
    Originally posted by Torchslasher

    Now if Cena lays down for Zack, Cena feels that he let the fans down by not wrestling a match that was advertised. Ryder knows that he didn't really deserve the shot because he "cheated" to get it (by just pinning Cena with no effort). And the fans hate both guys. The "lay down" scenario helps no one.


Ryder only won the Mark Henry match because Cena went in and took out Henry for him. He didn't really deserve that shot either.

There is no right way to explain the booking or even fix it by changing a small part. Every part of the Cena/Ryder segments were done stupidly wrong from the start.
Hokienautic
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.53
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      Originally posted by Torchslasher

      Now if Cena lays down for Zack, Cena feels that he let the fans down by not wrestling a match that was advertised. Ryder knows that he didn't really deserve the shot because he "cheated" to get it (by just pinning Cena with no effort). And the fans hate both guys. The "lay down" scenario helps no one.


    Ryder only won the Mark Henry match because Cena went in and took out Henry for him. He didn't really deserve that shot either.

    There is no right way to explain the booking or even fix it by changing a small part. Every part of the Cena/Ryder segments were done stupidly wrong from the start.


I think you're looking too closely. The overall picture is that Ryder already deserves a shot, but Laurenitis just won't give it to him. So the whole storyline was about jumping through hoops and/or screwing over Laurenitis/Ziggler by making sure Ryder gets the shot he deserves. So he doesn't need to beat Henry to "deserve" a shot but rather to "force" a shot -- it's about screwing over the idiot in charge.
Dionysus
Boerewors








Since: 10.7.11

Since last post: 9 hours
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet

    Ryder only won the Mark Henry match because Cena went in and took out Henry for him. He didn't really deserve that shot either.


Victories due to interference happen on a regular basis. Finger poke of doom finishes hardly ever happen, so they stand out when they do. Ryder's victory would have been screwy either way, but its much easier to overlook him getting a common type of cheap victory as opposed to an uncommon type.
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... one that I thought was very well done. Hogan's respect for the WWF and its current crop of talent seems to be pretty damn high.
- J.T. Dutch, An interview with Hogan ... (2002)
Related threads: RAW Supershow #966 11/28/11 - RAW Supershow #965 11/21/11 - RAW Supershow #964 11/14/11 - More...
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