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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW March 21 2005 (Page 3)
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Kawshen
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Since: 2.1.02
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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22

    When have they ever successfully pushed a black wrestler without reducing him to some ebonics spewing stereotype?






AMG2K2
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Since: 27.11.03
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.27
Touch, Kawshen, touch. It's not like WWE is WCW anyway... uh, least I hope not.

I think Shelton will be great in a while, he's really hitting some of the big spots as of late, and giving people some neat moments ('this close', stiff chair shot, flying spot this week). He just needs someone to *feud* with who isn't named Christian (who himself needs something to do). After all, he is the Interconti-frickin'-nental Champion.

Dunno if he needs more promo work or a gimmick, but I was digging those vignettes a month ago with Shelton talking about his upbringing.



Lord of the Manor
Chourico








Since: 24.2.03
From: London, United Kingdom

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Kawshen

      When have they ever successfully pushed a black wrestler without reducing him to some ebonics spewing stereotype?





That's a strecth don't you think? Rocky is mixed race and I think Hogan has been darker than Rock at certain points in his career.

If you can point to someone the WWE has developed and pushed in anyway resembling what they have done with their other superstars, past and present, then by all means correct me.

But off the top of my head Mark Henry, Ron Simmons, Bad News Brown, Koko B Ware, and Booker T say otherwise.





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Since: 8.5.03
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.55
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    If you can point to someone the WWE has developed and pushed in anyway resembling what they have done with their other superstars, past and present, then by all means correct me.

    But off the top of my head Mark Henry, Ron Simmons, Bad News Brown, Koko B Ware, and Booker T say otherwise.



I would hardly call any of them 'ebonic-spewing.' Cartoonish, yeah. So was TL Hopper, Bastion Booger, Brooklyn Brawler and the Godwins. I haven't seen Shelton or Orlando reduced to some sort of Amos and Andy archetype (and I don't think Ahmed Johnson was encouraged to talk a certain way either), and I haven't seen any ethnic group that the WWE HASN'T depicted as cartoonish from Native American, Samoan, Latino, Asian and, allow me the stretch, Redneck.



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MDK
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Since: 31.10.03
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#45 Posted on
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    I think you'll have to keep waiting. Let's face it, anyone who thinks the WWE will some how push Shelton properly is fooling themselves. When have they ever successfully pushed a black wrestler without reducing him to some ebonics spewing stereotype? The WWE is run by a bunch of white guys (and Stephanie) who are putting on a show for white guys (and Randy orton fans). I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far history supports this.


The WWF does not just push White Wrestlers. What about former WWF Champions:-

Pedro Morales (Puerto Rican)
Iron Sheik (Iranian)
Yokozuna (Polynesian)
The Rock (Black)
Eddie Guerrero (Mexican)

Although some are no more than transitional champions, they got the title as top heel in the company, or over face, which could not have been acheived without a push



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Lord of the Manor
Chourico








Since: 24.2.03
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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by MDK
      Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
      I think you'll have to keep waiting. Let's face it, anyone who thinks the WWE will some how push Shelton properly is fooling themselves. When have they ever successfully pushed a black wrestler without reducing him to some ebonics spewing stereotype? The WWE is run by a bunch of white guys (and Stephanie) who are putting on a show for white guys (and Randy orton fans). I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far history supports this.


    The WWF does not just push White Wrestlers. What about former WWF Champions:-

    Pedro Morales (Puerto Rican)
    Iron Sheik (Iranian)
    Yokozuna (Polynesian)
    The Rock (Black)
    Eddie Guerrero (Mexican)

    Although some are no more than transitional champions, they got the title as top heel in the company, or over face, which could not have been acheived without a push


I'm not saying that they haven't pushed any minority, but they seem to have a particularly difficult time with black wrestlers for some reason. Simmons was a former WCW champion, so to a degree he had the credibility, then he comes in as Farooq wearing a silly blue helmet. Same with Booker T, the WWE didn't even have to do anything with these guys, they were established, but they just do not seem to know how to handle them.

Right now you have both Shelton and Jordan holding the secondary titles and there is no psuh behind them at all. No character development. Jordan hasn't even actually beaten anyone. Shelton is where he is right now because of his hard work. Jordan is there because there was no one else to put the title on. The WWE has done next to nothing to establish them, in my opinion.




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Since: 8.5.03
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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.55
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    Right now you have both Shelton and Jordan holding the secondary titles and there is no psuh behind them at all. No character development. Jordan hasn't even actually beaten anyone. Shelton is where he is right now because of his hard work. Jordan is there because there was no one else to put the title on. The WWE has done next to nothing to establish them, in my opinion.


I'm only responding again because it also gives me a chance to speak to AMG2K2's comments: Shelton KILLED Snitsky. No one else has had the ability to put him away as cleanly, as decisively as that, and it happened at the hands of the tag specialist who beat Triple H, what, three times in a row in his first few weeks on RAW. Shelton has held the belt since October and is on pace to match Orton's record title reign. He's only lost cleanly to Benoit since winning the belt. He is firmly established and, I'd argue, substantially pushed.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
    Originally posted by Hogan is My Dad
    It got a pop because people were turning on Rocky, not because anyone bought into Lesnar. He wasn't exactly getting standing ovations all around the country.


He wasn't exactly not, had been my point. Lesnar on Raw wasn't very over (Vanilla Giant), but Lesnar on SD caught on as a killer, and everyone had bought into him by the time he won the belt. I just wanted to change the timeline of your point from first five months to first four months.


    Originally posted by the Lord
    That's a strecth don't you think? Rocky is mixed race


Isn't it more of a stretch to say that someone who's half-African-American should be unequivocally considered not African-American.

    Originally posted by the Lord
    If you can point to someone the WWE has developed and pushed in anyway resembling what they have done with their other superstars, past and present, then by all means correct me. But off the top of my head Mark Henry, Ron Simmons, Bad News Brown, Koko B Ware, and Booker T say otherwise.


Maven! The Coach (despite his predilection for white women)! D'Lo Brown (despite being part of a black militant group)! D-Von Dudley (despite being ordered by his white brother to get the tables)! Shelton Benjamin for the last 2+ years already, with the exception of one line about being "uppity." Maybe you were looking for bigger names, I dunno, but you included Koko B. Ware so that kind of opens a door.

    Originally posted by Lordy
    Simmons was a former WCW champion, so to a degree he had the credibility, then he comes in as Farooq wearing a silly blue helmet.


That famous black stereotype? I only jump on this one because you missed the far dicier part, where they paired him with Sunny to draw black man/white woman racist heat. And I'm not being facetious about that one.

    Originally posted by Lord
    Right now you have both Shelton and Jordan holding the secondary titles and there is no psuh behind them at all. No character development.


Isn't that more of a "people who aren't in the top dozen on the depth chart" issue than it is a black issue?

I don't disagree with you for a second that WWE has had more than their fair share of dubiousness with regard to black wrestlers, although that's been endemic not just to the McMahons but to the whole history of wrestling in this country. I just object to the dealing in absolutes (especially when the "particularly difficult time" applies more to the Japanese, who are scripted as retarded children).
Lord of the Manor
Chourico








Since: 24.2.03
From: London, United Kingdom

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Isn't it more of a stretch to say that someone who's half-African-American should be unequivocally considered not African-American.

My point is that physically, his features are much similar to Joe-white Guy. I'm looking at this from the whole people will easier accept what they are used to and are similar to. A lot about wrestlers catching on is giving the audience something they can relate to. The sad reality is that skin colour and racial features sets any black wrestler at a disadvantage. Rocky was able to avoid that because of his mixed race heritage. I'm not endorsing any of this, mind you. It's just what is to me a sad state of affairs.

Maven! The Coach (despite his predilection for white women)! D'Lo Brown (despite being part of a black militant group)! D-Von Dudley (despite being ordered by his white brother to get the tables)! Shelton Benjamin for the last 2+ years already, with the exception of one line about being "uppity." Maybe you were looking for bigger names, I dunno, but you included Koko B. Ware so that kind of opens a door.

I mentioned Koko because I was trying to cover the 80s as well. Plus, he was over (if I recall correctly) with such a silly gimmick and was still a jobber to the stars (who at that time included such luminaries as the Warlord)... oh and that reminds me of Samba Simba at which point I end my rant because nothing I say will carry more weight than bloody Samba Simba.




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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.44
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    I'm looking at this from the whole people will easier accept what they are used to and are similar to. A lot about wrestlers catching on is giving the audience something they can relate to. The sad reality is that skin colour and racial features sets any black wrestler at a disadvantage. Rocky was able to avoid that because of his mixed race heritage. I'm not endorsing any of this, mind you. It's just what is to me a sad state of affairs.
JYD was over
Booker T. was over
Monty Brown was over

and that's without even thinking about it.

IS IT POSSIBLE that an equal proportional percentage of ANY race of wrestlers "just plain got it" and therefore, the only reason it looks like there's more white guys at the top is because there's more white guys in the business in total?



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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.63
I was like eight when this happened, but wasn't Iceman "King" Parsons over as a baby face in World Class? I remember when he gave Buddy Roberts of the Freebirds the, uh, "butt-butt" and pinned him in four seconds in a hair vs. hair match. Then later on Skandar Akbar threw a fireball in Iceman's face.



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ScreamingHeadGuy
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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.97
I liked the show. It was an entertaining time. HHH's promo was the kind of thing that really built-up the HHH/Batista showdown. Randy Orton RKO'ing Stacey was something I was totally calling for (but then he had to go and kiss her, defusing the tension - then BAM!).



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redsoxnation
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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.20
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    I was like eight when this happened, but wasn't Iceman "King" Parsons over as a baby face in World Class? I remember when he gave Buddy Roberts of the Freebirds the, uh, "butt-butt" and pinned him in four seconds in a hair vs. hair match. Then later on Skandar Akbar threw a fireball in Iceman's face.







Iceman was over in WCCW, but as a face he was always on the rung beneath the Von Erich boys. Now, when he turned heel in the dying days of the promotion, he was briefly booked as the top heel, being involved in the lights out match with the loaded sock to win the World Class "World" Title from Kerry Von Erich.

On some of the black wrestlers in the WWF through the years:
Booker T was mainly punished for being involved in the match that killed WCW with Bagwell. Plus, he will always have the WCW taint on him.
Ahmed Johnson might have gotten a World Title push if he wasn't injury prone himself and easily causing injury to his opponent.
JYD had the misfortune of being the #2 face in the early Hogan era, so he was over enough not to need the I-C belt, but they couldn't move the World Belt on him because there was no way on Earth Vince was taking it off of Hogan.
Ron Simmons wasn't over when he won the WCW Title, and 5 years later when he entered the WWF after being off of TV for a few years he wasn't that over. Had a decent run early in the NOD gimmick, but then the Austin/Attitude era commenced.
As for Saba Simba: Tony Atlas was using that gimmick in World Class 6 months before he went back to work for Vince in '87, as he was Saba Simba at the Cotton Bowl against Crusher Yurkov (Bam Bam Bigelow in his commie days) in October of '86.

And on Pedro Morales and Bruno Sammartino: One of the key reasons these two men held the WWWF Title for all but around 1 month between 1963 and 1977 was due to their ethnicity. Vince Sr. was promoting the northeast corridor, and Puerto Rican and Italian residents were a large demographic he could use to draw in Boston/New York/Philadelphia. Put them against each in a face vs. face match for the World Title, and Vince Sr. was able to draw a big crowd at Shea Stadium in the early 70's.
Mayhem
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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.16
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
      I'm looking at this from the whole people will easier accept what they are used to and are similar to. A lot about wrestlers catching on is giving the audience something they can relate to. The sad reality is that skin colour and racial features sets any black wrestler at a disadvantage. Rocky was able to avoid that because of his mixed race heritage. I'm not endorsing any of this, mind you. It's just what is to me a sad state of affairs.
    JYD was over
    Booker T. was over
    Monty Brown was over

    and that's without even thinking about it.

    IS IT POSSIBLE that an equal proportional percentage of ANY race of wrestlers "just plain got it" and therefore, the only reason it looks like there's more white guys at the top is because there's more white guys in the business in total?


I don't recall his exact "overness", but what about Ron Simmons and his days from winning the WCW championship?



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ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Quickly on the subject of black wrestlers before I actually, you know, get back to the topic at hand-- what about Too Cold Scorpio?

Now, on the subject of RAW. I liked it. Shelton did some sick moves. You know, if Benoit or Jericho doesn't win this match, I think Shelton ought to. There's your fresh face in the World Title scene, right there-- and it'd be even more interesting if Triple H were to retain the belt at WrestleMania, which a lot of people (I'm not one of them, however) think is going to happen.

A Triple H/Shelton feud over the World Title would, of course, be of added interest because Shelton has, in the past, had The Game's number. I think it'd be absolutely terrific if Shelton were to defeat Triple H for the World Title at say, possibly SummerSlam or something.

If Edge or Christian win the Money in the Bank ladder match, I wouldn't be surprised to see Batista wind up defeating Triple H. But I'd be very surprised if Christian won the thing. Less so if Edge won it, but he's been built in the main event for some time now.

It'd be wonderful to see Chris Jericho win it, especially if Trips leaves WM as the champion. Jericho and Triple H have almost never seen eye to eye, and it's been a long time since they've feuded while Y2J is a face. Goddammit, if that matchup materializes, and HHH says to Y2J, "You've never beaten me," roll that beautiful bean footage of when Jericho beat Trips for the WWF Championship and Trips bullied Earl Hebner into overturning it! The true Jerichoholics know the story.

Unfortunately, we also know the story of how Triple H likes to beat the hell out of Chris Jericho without ever getting any comeuppance, so...

I also would like to see Chris Benoit win the ladder match, to finally build him back up to the main event status he never deserved to lose in the first place. You know he and Trips can put on a show in that ring together. But it'd also be interesting if Benoit turned heel and feuded with new champion Batista.

Kane's the one guy who'd piss me off by winning the ladder match. And I like Kane. But crappy angles stick to him like white on rice. Besides, we've seen Trips/Kane a zillion times, and we just saw Batista/Kane.



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Since: 7.1.02
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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.16
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    Quickly on the subject of black wrestlers before I actually, you know, get back to the topic at hand-- what about Too Cold Scorpio?


AKA Flash Funk???






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Since: 8.6.02
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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.40
I'm about the same percentage Black as the Rock is, but some of these examples on both sides of the argument need to be looked at more closely. JYD is a bad example for "should have been pushed". He was a terrible worker, I would argue worse than Hogan who could at least be carried. Koko Ware's dropkick was better than Hardcore Holly's any day of the week, but if your name is Koko B. Ware and Jesse Ventura is saying the "B stands for Buchwheat", your potential is definied from the word go. That was pretty racist, I gotta admit. Amhed Johnson was designed to be the first black WWF Champion, they specifically hired him with that notion in mind and due to reasons mentioned by others in this thread, he wasn't a realiable option. On the other hand, Faarooq wasn't much of a worker himself, and that stiffness that was his trademark in WCW seemed lost in the WWF, and I can't honestly say I would have put the belt on him. In fact, once the buyrate came back from that KOTR he main evented with 'Taker, I think that was it for him in a prominent role.

Booker T is the best example of someone of colour who they dropped the ball with. His charisma was great, and he had a lot of heat coming in. His "fight" with Austin in that supermarket where he got in no offense made me uncomfortable, because it looked like something they might play at a Klan rally to up morale. They seemed intent on destroying Booker T, and it did seem malicious to me.

The Rock was a no-brainer. By mid 1998 it was obvious he had "it". It wouldn't have mattered what colour he was, that was something that couldn't be derailed, so I don't give them any credit for that outside of "accepting the incredibly fucking obvious".

Now what sets Shelton apart, is that he is probably the best worker out of anyone mentioned here. If he continues to improve, I don't believe I'm exaggerating when I say he will be close to a Chris Benoit level of in-ring ability. Shelton has a chance to become one of the best workers in general, not just the best Black one, and I'm sure that's how he wants it viewed. He doesn't need a personality to be a prominent top level guy, because like Benoit, he is a machine. Let him be a machine.



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sentonBOMB
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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.10
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    Now what sets Shelton apart, is that he is probably the best worker out of anyone mentioned here. If he continues to improve, I don't believe I'm exaggerating when I say he will be close to a Chris Benoit level of in-ring ability. Shelton has a chance to become one of the best workers in general, not just the best Black one, and I'm sure that's how he wants it viewed. He doesn't need a personality to be a prominent top level guy, because like Benoit, he is a machine. Let him be a machine.


And this, to me, is a problem, because while Chris Benoit is a badass and credible and a good worker... I have always felt that he never quite got what he could have if he had some promo charisma. People like him because he has charisma in the ring, and he is a scrappy underdog and people love those, but I've always felt he was lacking in personality in a way that kept him from the very top. He's the guy who is bland, but SO GOOD in the ring that his blandness hasn't kept him from the main event. But even that only goes so far.

This is what I worry about for Shelton.
Matt Tracker
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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.55
    Originally posted by sentonBOMB
    And this, to me, is a problem, because while Chris Benoit is a badass and credible and a good worker... I have always felt that he never quite got what he could have if he had some promo charisma. People like him because he has charisma in the ring, and he is a scrappy underdog and people love those, but I've always felt he was lacking in personality in a way that kept him from the very top. He's the guy who is bland, but SO GOOD in the ring that his blandness hasn't kept him from the main event. But even that only goes so far.

    This is what I worry about for Shelton.


To be fair, he's come a LONG way since his WCW days. My God, even he knew he couldn't speak that well on the mic so he called himself "silent but violent." If I were a grade-school fan back then, I don't I could ever take him seriously after that.



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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.65
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    JYD is a bad example for "should have been pushed". He was a terrible worker, I would argue worse than Hogan who could at least be carried.


I am assuming you have only seen WWF era JYD and not Mid South North American Champion JYD. He was a brawler, sure, but he could carry a match and did work his ass off, until Vince signed him and he got fat and lazy.
Besides, he was trained by Stu Hart, so he cant be THAT bad.
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but thats the age group the WWE is targeting so it serves its purpose
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