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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW is Rock...
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Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2867 days
Last activity: 2660 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Chris Garvin is still being pushed, Lex
Orton still doesn't have much offense,
Trip Burton and Liz Michaels (Shawn,
not the Taskmistress) are still trying
to hog the spotlight, but the surprise
return of the Rock stole the show and
reminded everyone of how powerful the
connection between top WWE superstars
and their fans was before Trip's greed
and insecurity crippled the promotion.

Chris Benoit and Edge defended their
tag titles against Randy Orton and
Batista. Orton again brought almost
no offense to the table other than
long, mostly implausible restholds.
The finish was effective but the body
of the match was largely forgettable,
including yet another Orton gaffe.

Eugene came out to do an interview
that was then hijacked by the Coach.
I guess there is hope for everyone
because after years of showing zero
personality and often being unable
to deliver simple lines coherently,
Coach is suddenly showing signs of
a personality, navigating tortured
dialog with ease, and even adding
comedic stooge heel grace notes.

In this one segment Coach surpassed
the entire career of William Moody,
aka Percy Pringle, aka Paul Bearer.
Coach has gone from being useless to
having some potential value, though
creative would need to give him a
role with more shelf life than what
appeared to be a one night stand.

Dinsmore hit his marks again. Parts
of the gimmick are downright offensive
like the lip licking and thumb chewing,
but other parts are gold like the way
he pantomimed the games that The
Rock mentioned during his speech.

I was never a big fan of The Rock and
his poontang pie nonsense, but even
Stevie Wonder could see that he has
a connection with WWE fans, despite
appearing rarely during the past year,
that blows away the rest of the roster
to the point where Vince have a better
chance bringing back The Rock full time
and firing the rest of the roster than he
would of continuing without The Rock.
The Rock isn't Tenryu, he's Giant Baba.
Too bad for Vince he isn't interested
in working for the WWE full time.

The Rock had the crowd in the palm of
his hand, to the point of being able
to get them to chant not one, but two
new catchphrases at Coach. Despite
being put in the ring with a midcard
novelty and a weekend heel, The Rock
was able to turn back time to when
the WWE was cool and steal the show.

No segment got more heat. None were
even close, including the first half
of Eugene's segment with the Coach.
Even the obligatory mention of Trip
couldn't destroy the segment, though
it did kill off some of its momentum.

The main event was the much hyped
battle royal. Hopefully the hype
was ignored because fans who bought
it and looked forward to seeing the
battle royal would have been livid
about the insertion of multiple
commercial breaks during the match.

The action (and the standing around)
built to Dusty Kane taking center
stage using the Bionic Chokeslam on
the faux Horsemen and Gorgeous Jimmy
Edge. The twist was a battle of the
monsters between Kane and Batista
that had the crowd on their feet.

Unfortunately Batista was quickly
eliminated by Edge, though I note
that both men need a dance partner
for the upcoming PPV. Batista vs
Kane seemed like a more compelling
matchup and also seemed stronger
than Kane vs Benoit, whereas Edge
vs Benoit is also more natural.
Seems like Creative is missing or
avoiding obvious combinations.

Unfortunately RAW has to focus on
the continuing melodrama between
Triple H and scorned Shawn Michaels,
so Shawn ran in to eliminate Trip
which allowed Kane to back into
a title shot (while lying on his back
and holding his balls) against
Chris Benoit, not that anyone got
hurt or made to look inferior by
Trip's insecurity on this night.

There are signs of hope on RAW, the
fluidity of Orton, despite his paucity
of interesting offense, the fact that
Eugene is getting over strong, the
fact that Coach is no longer one of
the worst talking heads in history,
the fact that Batista is continuing
to work hard and is getting over,
and the fact that the excitement in
the crowd is still there to be tapped
when someone like The Rock appears.

The shame is that everything, including
Kane's bid to challenge for the title,
has to take a back seat to yet another
chapter in the saga of Trip and Shawn,
two performers who have rarely held a
crowd as well as The Rock did in this
brief, unannounced, midcard cameo.

Frank
Promote this thread!
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 7 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
AIM:  
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.79
Sweet, poetry on the W. 'Bout time somebody classed the joint up.





Kane's vie for a YJ Stinger commercial goes awry
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 14 hours
Last activity: 3 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.07
    Originally posted by Lexus
    Sweet, poetry on the W. 'Bout time somebody classed the joint up.
I am constantly amazed that people - who I would hope could usually be counted upon to serve as good examples on this board - seem to RACE to be the first to make snide remarks to Frank instead of either arguing or ignoring his points.

Wait, no - not "amazed" so much as "disgusted."

(edited by CRZ on 18.5.04 0144)


CRZ
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2867 days
Last activity: 2660 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Is this the part where CoachRZ breaks
the news to Eugidol that W fans have
been laughing at him, not with him?

Damn, I thought they really liked me.

Frank

(How much time did Kane have to lay on
his back selling Batista's spinebuster,
Edge's spear, and Trip's crotch shot?)
pieman
As young as
he feels








Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

Since last post: 23 hours
Last activity: 18 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.41

    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    Damn, I thought they really liked me.

Anybody who grew up watching wrestling in Portland is okay with me. Civic Center or Expo, though?

PS - I really like the nickname Gorgeous Jimmy Edge.




Gabba Gabba Hey!


Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2867 days
Last activity: 2660 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
I've seen wrestling at both the Expo
and the Civic Center.

The Expo show featured the Valiant
brothers vs Tony Garea and Dean Ho
for the WWWF tag team titles. Yes,
that was a long time ago. Back then
they sold tickets at the Sportsman's
Grill on Congress Street.

The Civic Center show was in the
early eighties. Intercontinental
champion Ken Patera faced Andre the
Giant. Pat Patterson and Rene Goulet
challenged the Samoans for the tag
titles. Johnny Rodz and Jose Estrada
had the match of the night, a twenty
minute draw to open the show.

Frank
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3260 days
Last activity: 3260 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
"Chris Garvin is still being pushed, Lex
Orton still doesn't have much offense,
Trip Burton and Liz Michaels (Shawn,
not the Taskmistress) are still trying
to hog the spotlight, but the surprise
return of the Rock stole the show and
reminded everyone of how powerful the
connection between top WWE superstars
and their fans was before Trip's greed
and insecurity crippled the promotion."

Benoit has surpassed Garvin because he gets to be dominant against the rest of the roster. Triple H has learned to build up his challenger before he buries them. Everyone knew that Benoit (and anyone else) is just holding the belt until Triple H wants it back. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me so much. We all know the game by now.

"The Rock isn't Tenryu, he's Giant Baba.
Too bad for Vince he isn't interested
in working for the WWE full time."

It's impossible for him to work WWE even part-time even if Vince were to match his $10 million quote. Would you rather be a wrestling uber-star or a movie star?

I thought the best part of that segement was Lance (Storm is gone, give him his name back) Cade trying to give himself whiplash during The Rock's punches.

"Unfortunately Batista was quickly
eliminated by Edge, though I note
that both men need a dance partner
for the upcoming PPV. Batista vs
Kane seemed like a more compelling
matchup and also seemed stronger
than Kane vs Benoit, whereas Edge
vs Benoit is also more natural.
Seems like Creative is missing or
avoiding obvious combinations."

Do you really want Edge to lose yet, though? If he's going to be one of the next belt-warmers, he should probably keep running through Evolution.

Kane versus Benoit got very strong reviews from the house shows. And Edge & Benoit would have a better match then HHH & HBK. Benoit and Kane will have a good one but not a great one. Well, unless Benoit really wants to stick it to Trips and can pull off the miracle and gets a better match out of Kane then the Hell In A Cell.

"The shame is that everything, including
Kane's bid to challenge for the title,
has to take a back seat to yet another
chapter in the saga of Trip and Shawn,
two performers who have rarely held a
crowd as well as The Rock did in this
brief, unannounced, midcard cameo."

It is a shame because they have the talent to put on entertaining shows WITH Triple H & Shawn's self-love. Imagine if they were cut from the restraints of having to keep those two happy? I can understand why they do it, though. Shawn's days are numbered and Triple H just can.

Randy Orton reminds me more of Jeff Jarrett circa 94-95 then Lex Luger except that Orton shows signs that he might put it all together in the near future while Jeff never did.



"Each race determines for itself what indecencies are. Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them." - Mark Twain
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

Since last post: 40 days
Last activity: 40 days
AIM:  
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.53

Chris Garvin is still being pushed, Lex
Orton still doesn't have much offense,
Trip Burton and Liz Michaels (Shawn,
not the Taskmistress) are still trying
to hog the spotlight, but the surprise
return of the Rock stole the show and
reminded everyone of how powerful the
connection between top WWE superstars
and their fans was before Trip's greed
and insecurity crippled the promotion.


I think that could have very well ended with "and their fans". HHH's role in the alleged "sinking" of the WWE is overstated, to say the least.

Eugene came out to do an interview
that was then hijacked by the Coach.
I guess there is hope for everyone
because after years of showing zero
personality and often being unable
to deliver simple lines coherently,
Coach is suddenly showing signs of
a personality, navigating tortured
dialog with ease, and even adding
comedic stooge heel grace notes.


Coach has always had the "dick" personality. He was on the sidelines during just about every XFL game in Orlando -and was absolutely BRUTAL to the drunk redneck hecklers. I'm more amazed that it took them this long to "let him loose" -i.e. not try to overburden him with scripted dialogue / overbearing stiff delivery. Just a general format and allow him to be himself.

In this one segment Coach surpassed
the entire career of William Moody,
aka Percy Pringle, aka Paul Bearer.
Coach has gone from being useless to
having some potential value, though
creative would need to give him a
role with more shelf life than what
appeared to be a one night stand.


I think Coach is evolving into a "expendable heel interviewer with no redeemable qualities" role, which, as mentioned above, if they do not burden him with the "A,B,C" promo style could lead to many entertaining segments and serve the purpose of getting someone like Eugene over. Re: Eugene - based on the earlier vignettes, I expected Regal, not Rock, to come out and stand up for him - hopefully that eventually happens. Short term, Rock put Eugene on the map, but now that the Genie is out of the bottle, Regal is good enough mic wise to continue the program.

I was never a big fan of The Rock and
his poontang pie nonsense, but even
Stevie Wonder could see that he has
a connection with WWE fans, despite
appearing rarely during the past year,
that blows away the rest of the roster
to the point where Vince have a better
chance bringing back The Rock full time
and firing the rest of the roster than he
would of continuing without The Rock.
The Rock isn't Tenryu, he's Giant Baba.
Too bad for Vince he isn't interested
in working for the WWE full time.


Everything goes just fine without the Rock around full time. For example - his special appearance at WMXX did not do anyone any good - he made a comedy match out of something (Foley / Orton) that had been building as a blood feud. Luckily, Foley is a genius and with two promos got everything back on track for the blow-off match at Backlash. And of course the crowd went nuts - they would have done the same thing for Austin, Hogan, Piper, Savage, Foley, etc...anyone with any kind of "special connection" to the fans in a hotshot appearance does that. Rock's ability to manipulate a crowd is phenomenal - but Rock himself cannot guarantee ratings / buyrates. That's been proven.

The Rock had the crowd in the palm of
his hand, to the point of being able
to get them to chant not one, but two
new catchphrases at Coach. Despite
being put in the ring with a midcard
novelty and a weekend heel, The Rock
was able to turn back time to when
the WWE was cool and steal the show.


He did the same thing with Hurricane, which lead nowhere. Again, a hotshot looks great when it happens, but where does it lead? In this case, the character Eugene was getting over remarkably well, garnering as much of a response as anyone on the show - this managed to put him over the top...which is where Dinsmore is going anyway - Rock just fast tracked the process.

Even the obligatory mention of Trip
couldn't destroy the segment, though
it did kill off some of its momentum.


What it did was wake the crowd up from their lemming behavior. And it was FUNNY! The best thing in the segment, in my opinion. It continued to plant the seed of Eugene trailing off in his own world, regardless of what is happening around him. That's goes miles long term for the "loveable loser" vibe of the gimmick.

The main event was the much hyped
battle royal. Hopefully the hype
was ignored because fans who bought
it and looked forward to seeing the
battle royal would have been livid
about the insertion of multiple
commercial breaks during the match.


The show producers should be ashamed for letting that happen. But once again, when Rock is given carte blanche (like they would cut away during * his * antics), the timing of the show goes to hell. Or I guess you could look at it in QH numbers - HHH's entrance and exit will likely do the biggest number. And there's your conspiracy of the week.

Unfortunately Batista was quickly
eliminated by Edge, though I note
that both men need a dance partner
for the upcoming PPV. Batista vs
Kane seemed like a more compelling
matchup and also seemed stronger
than Kane vs Benoit, whereas Edge
vs Benoit is also more natural.
Seems like Creative is missing or
avoiding obvious combinations.


I think "stalling" would be a more accurate term. They can get away with the HHH / HBK Cell match for the next PPV and Kane is expendable as always to throw into an "off" PPV title shot. He will survive. Edge / Benoit has no backstory to hotshot for a one show deal. They can slow burn into a program for the fall, providing Benoit still has the belt. If not, the match / feud would work anyway. Batista and Kane are the same - where's the story? Maybe now that the seeds are planted and they can figure out how to make Kane a "good guy" again, it's yet another program down the road. The last six months have established a solid ground to build upon - after the last two years, hopefully the WWE has figured out they DON'T HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING AT ONCE. There are like 2 thousand PPV's between now and next WM - let them build or else be prepared for another half-assed show like WM19.

Unfortunately RAW has to focus on
the continuing melodrama between
Triple H and scorned Shawn Michaels,
so Shawn ran in to eliminate Trip
which allowed Kane to back into
a title shot (while lying on his back
and holding his balls) against
Chris Benoit, not that anyone got
hurt or made to look inferior by
Trip's insecurity on this night.


Bah. No one was harmed. If Kane's program feat. Lita sniffing won't bury him, this won't. Benoit is as over as he can be*. Besides, the crowd seemed to love HBK / HHH...the Cell match will probably be right up there with the WM 3-way for MOTYC.

* when the crowd starts responding to Benoit's chops with "EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAY" instead of "WOOOOOOOOOO", then he's God. Until then...**

** all apologies if someone else has said that. I don't get around much anymore

There are signs of hope on RAW, the
fluidity of Orton, despite his paucity
of interesting offense, the fact that
Eugene is getting over strong, the
fact that Coach is no longer one of
the worst talking heads in history,
the fact that Batista is continuing
to work hard and is getting over,
and the fact that the excitement in
the crowd is still there to be tapped
when someone like The Rock appears.

The shame is that everything, including
Kane's bid to challenge for the title,
has to take a back seat to yet another
chapter in the saga of Trip and Shawn,
two performers who have rarely held a
crowd as well as The Rock did in this
brief, unannounced, midcard cameo.


Comparing Rock's response to anyone else but Hogan's or Austin's is unfair. Rock has shown if he hangs around long enough, his schizophrenic lemming crowd will turn on him and ruin any program he is involved with (turned Brock face a year too early and never mind the Goldberg nonsense). Absence makes the crowd grow louder, but to compare a 10 minute cameo to a Cell buildup and blowoff match is, in my opinion, a little off track. I agree the crowd excitement is there, but the last time a crowd went that wild on a consistent basis it lead to the Summer of Hogan. I don't want that again...if it takes only LOUD pops opposed to APESHIT pops to further the good streak RAW is on, I'm all for it.

FLEA



Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high...

FLEA - 1ryderfakin.com - THE IWC 100! And The Wrestling Dead Pool!!
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2867 days
Last activity: 2660 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
: Everything goes just fine without the Rock
: around full time. For example - his special
: appearance at WMXX did not do anyone any good

It sure did that buyrate good. :o

: - he made a comedy match out of something
: (Foley / Orton) that had been building as
: a blood feud.

And who booked him into that wasted space?

*rolls eyes*

Trip fucks people, then you blame them for
getting fucked. I guess Trip will never lose.

: Rock's ability to manipulate a crowd is
: phenomenal - but Rock himself cannot
: guarantee ratings / buyrates. That's
: been proven.

Well you can't prove it by last night because
someone (wonder who?) decided that it would be
a bad idea to advertise the Rock's appearance.

Trip's shrunken testicles couldn't be more
obvious if his tights were made of Saran Wrap.

: He did the same thing with Hurricane, which
: lead nowhere.

No shit?! WHO BOOKED HIM WITH HURRICANE?!?!

: Again, a hotshot looks great when it happens,

My point wasn't to put over running hotshots.
I said that the WWE would be better off starting
with The Rock and finding fifty new guys to put
around him than they are going forward with the
guys they have now. The difference was obvious.

: The show producers should be ashamed for letting
: that happen. But once again, when Rock is given
: carte blanche (like they would cut away during
: * his * antics), the timing of the show goes to hell.

Agreed, but as I said, I never liked the Rock's
schtick. But the "lemmings" sure as hell did
and still do, moreso than anything Trip could
do other than being set on fire in the ring.

: I think "stalling" would be a more accurate term.
: They can get away with the HHH / HBK Cell match
: for the next PPV

Looking at those buyrates, WWE Creative isn't
"getting away" with much these days. Few fans
give a shit about Trip vs Shawn XVIII, unless
the loser is going to be set on fire in the ring.

: Edge / Benoit has no backstory to hotshot
: for a one show deal.

No kidding. No one suggested that. Creative
could have been moving Edge in that direction
since his return, but they didn't. Again if
one wants to assume that Trip's booking is the
only way in the world that things could ever
work (and one must ignore shrinking ratings,
buyrates, and crowds to claim that they work),
then one can dismiss every other booking idea
as being "unworkable" within the current scheme.

: Batista and Kane are the same - where's the
: story?

"Who is the stronger monster" has been selling
tickets since Godzilla vs Megalon and obviously
the crowd last night was hot for that matchup.

: Maybe now that the seeds are planted and they
: can figure out how to make Kane a "good guy"
: again, it's yet another program down the road.

The Trip/Shawn/benoit triangle matches were not
straight heel vs face, nor was Shawn vs Benoit.

It amazes me that people choose to ignore current
events to find excuses for Trip's way being the
only way. It's not like the WWE hasn't run a
heel vs heel or face vs face match lately.

: There are like 2 thousand PPV's between now and
: next WM - let them build or else be prepared for
: another half-assed show like WM19.

Champ Benoit vs Edge isn't a WM match, it's an
"in between PPV" match. Ditto Batista vs Kane.

: Bah. No one was harmed.

No one who matters?

: Comparing Rock's response to anyone else but
: Hogan's or Austin's is unfair.

We'll never see Trip's name in that company.

: Absence makes the crowd grow louder, but to
: compare a 10 minute cameo to a Cell buildup
: and blowoff match is, in my opinion, a
: little off track.

I'd be willing to compare it to anything Trip
has done during the past two years. He never
gets that level of heat or involvement. Yeah,
I know, "poor Trip is a heel." There is an
obvious reason why his planned face turns have
been cancelled. It's easier to hide go away
heat when you are positioned as a heel.

: I agree the crowd excitement is there, but
: the last time a crowd went that wild on a
: consistent basis it lead to the Summer of Hogan.
: I don't want that again...

Nor do I, but The Rock isn't as old as Hogan
was that summer. In fact he's probably younger
than Hogan was during the summer of nWo. But
The Rock doesn't want to wrestle full time,
particularly in a company where the asshole
son-in-law would book him with undercard guys
like Hurricane, so it's a moot point.

The days when the WWE consistently got the
kind of heat we saw last night are long gone.

Thanks, Trip.

Frank

(edited by Boston Idol on 18.5.04 0954)
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

Since last post: 40 days
Last activity: 40 days
AIM:  
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.58
It sure did that buyrate good. :o

I'm pretty sure the buyrate revolved around WMXX as the event, not the matches

And who booked him into that wasted space?

*rolls eyes*

Trip fucks people, then you blame them for
getting fucked. I guess Trip will never lose.


Ummm.....

Well you can't prove it by last night because
someone (wonder who?) decided that it would be
a bad idea to advertise the Rock's appearance.


Good Lord

No shit?! WHO BOOKED HIM WITH HURRICANE?!?!

Must have been HHH, right?

My point wasn't to put over running hotshots.
I said that the WWE would be better off starting
with The Rock and finding fifty new guys to put
around him than they are going forward with the
guys they have now. The difference was obvious.


I understood. I just didn't agree with it and didn't want to dwell on how that would never work. We can revisit that if you like...

It might have been put better as:

"Set HHH on fire so he dies then we can have the magical world of 2000 WWE again!"

Agreed, but as I said, I never liked the Rock's
schtick. But the "lemmings" sure as hell did
and still do, moreso than anything Trip could
do other than being set on fire in the ring.
Looking at those buyrates, WWE Creative isn't
"getting away" with much these days. Few fans
give a shit about Trip vs Shawn XVIII, unless
the loser is going to be set on fire in the ring.


I still fail to see where the buyrates are at "pitiful" level. Or the ratings. The house shows are hit or miss, but it's been quite sometime since house show revenue is a make or break option for the company. Especially when they can pump out DVD special releases quicker than people can pay.

It amazes me that people choose to ignore current
events to find excuses for Trip's way being the
only way. It's not like the WWE hasn't run a
heel vs heel or face vs face match lately.


It amazes me after all this time people still blame HHH for all evils. Who is booking Undertaker Smackdown? And I have no problem with heel v heel or face v face - but they (sorry...Trip!!!) can't throw those matches out there and hope the fans will "get it".

Champ Benoit vs Edge isn't a WM match, it's an
"in between PPV" match. Ditto Batista vs Kane.


Says who? If they run a 3 month program...oops....Trip ain't going to let that happen.

We'll never see Trip's name in that company.

Well, what if Conan takes off? Think he has enough stroke to get Ah-Nold to put him over?

I'd be willing to compare it to anything Trip
has done during the past two years. He never
gets that level of heat or involvement. Yeah,
I know, "poor Trip is a heel." There is an
obvious reason why his planned face turns have
been cancelled. It's easier to hide go away
heat when you are positioned as a heel.


Hey! I remember when everyone said "HHH needs to be heel. This corny face gimmick SUCKS. Of course, that's before we "knew" him. And I guess that *is* go away heat, at least for some folks. I would consider what MSG did to Brock and GB "go away" heat, vs. whatever response you believe Trip is getting.

Nor do I, but The Rock isn't as old as Hogan
was that summer. In fact he's probably younger
than Hogan was during the summer of nWo. But
The Rock doesn't want to wrestle full time,
particularly in a company where the asshole
son-in-law would book him with undercard guys
like Hurricane, so it's a moot point.


So when Trip books him as...that doesn't even make sense. Moot, indeed.

The days when the WWE consistently got the
kind of heat we saw last night are long gone.

Thanks, Trip.


Yep. Things are really going bad. Down the tubes. End of the road. Did Trip book the Invasion? And is he also booking Smackdown? And who cut Jericho's nuts off right out of the gate just to garner that "kind of heat". And who made Jericho look second rate as champ to maintain his "kind of heat". The dude was long gone before mean old Trip ever "booked" him to pick up dogshit. Of course, in between all of that you could look to Last Man Standing when Jericho *maybe* should have won, but then it gets all nasty - I remember Rock not putting Benoit over - did Trip cause that? Hard to say...we were just getting to "know" Trip then...

FLEA



Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high...

FLEA - 1ryderfakin.com - THE IWC 100! And The Wrestling Dead Pool!!
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3260 days
Last activity: 3260 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    And who cut Jericho's nuts off right out of the gate just to garner that "kind of heat". And who made Jericho look second rate as champ to maintain his "kind of heat". The dude was long gone before mean old Trip ever "booked" him to pick up dogshit. Of course, in between all of that you could look to Last Man Standing when Jericho *maybe* should have won, but then it gets all nasty - I remember Rock not putting Benoit over - did Trip cause that? Hard to say...we were just getting to "know" Trip then...


Who launched a smear campaign with his buddies after Jericho's first PPV match telling everyone in the company that Jericho didn't know how to work? Who got him moved into a feud with his then-girlfriend? Who beat Jericho in a Last Man Standing Match and moved back up into the title picture while Jericho moved right back down to the IC Title when Jericho was CLEARLY ready to headline?

Rock's not the saint people make him out to be but he's no Triple H.



"Each race determines for itself what indecencies are. Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them." - Mark Twain
Dave Gagnon
Mettwurst








Since: 25.7.03
From: Rimouski

Since last post: 3701 days
Last activity: 3698 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.89
First of all, I agree with pretty much everything Flea said so I won't add anything to that.

The only thing I'd like to talk about is this constant "If anything is wrong, blame it on HHH". Jesus christ, BostonIdol, give it a rest.

I know that HHH is not a saint but in the last year or so, he did business the right way.

He made Goldberg look like a million bucks. When he finally regained his title, it was because of Kane's help. He never defeated Goldberg one on one.

He's having great matches this year. He is almost, dare I say, in his 2000 form. He put over Benoit by tapping to the crossface. He put over Benjamin big time.

This "HHH sucks wha wha" stuff is getting really old. I know there's always a need for a scapegoat but this is ridiculous.





Columnist and NWA TNA recapper at www.411mania.com . Check out the good stuff NOW!

Everything I say is a lie. Except that. And that. And that. And that. And that....And that.
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 7 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
AIM:  
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.79
Allow me to retort.

Using the term 'lemming' to describe the majority of wrestling fans polarizes everything that's screwy with the IWC. These 'lemmings' enjoy what the WWE is doing. They shell out their hard earned cash for tickets, shirts, and other assorted paraphenalia, supporting their favorite entertainers and entertainment. They like the WWE, they like the Rock, they like Eugene, they hate HHH. On the other hand, you have gone off on a tirade with arguments that would suggest that you disdain the Fed's efforts of late, and how they could, nay, should be better. However, even though you are dissatisfied (as dissatisfaction leads to ranting) you will continue to watch. Call me crazy, but aren't we the dumb rodents who'll continue to go back for the pellet time and again, no matter how bitter?

Furthermore, WWE creative has won over your heart and mind; you hate HHH. After all, isn't that the whole idea? What good is a heel who has fans? You try to cover it, saying that it's 'go away' heat, rather than, um, let's try 'we'll respectfully boo your presence even though we like you *wink* *nudge*' heat? Sorry, but gas, electric, charcoal, oil, butane, or whatever your stove runs on to cook your eggs in the morning, it's still heat. Either you're over as a heel and people don't like you, or not. There's not much room for anything else.

Furthermore, the thought that any worker in history cared about how they got their heat is just as cockamamie a thought as the notion that there are more than one kind of heat. Either the mob that is a live wrestling audience will love you, hate you, or go to the bathroom. If they're driven enough to stick around and boo you, it's heat, plain and simple. Last I checked, there were a LOT of people in MSG raising the chants that echoed throughout the Brock/Berg match. Thus, it held the interest of those people, and worked. Those chants also made Brock look like an even bigger heel as a result.





Kane's vie for a YJ Stinger commercial goes awry
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

Since last post: 40 days
Last activity: 40 days
AIM:  
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.58
Just to clarify, it was me, not Frank, that brought up "lemmings". And the context in which I stated that is much different that what is being discussed.

fuelinjected: Who launched a smear campaign with his buddies after Jericho's first PPV match telling everyone in the company that Jericho didn't know how to work? Who got him moved into a feud with his then-girlfriend? Who beat Jericho in a Last Man Standing Match and moved back up into the title picture while Jericho moved right back down to the IC Title when Jericho was CLEARLY ready to headline?

Oh yeah - the old "WWF(E)" style - I remember the uproar when that happened...and I'm pretty sure Austin and UT started that "idea", when Austin was way to crippled to work for real. Well, Jericho was sloppy as hell. Here's his take on it - I think Waltman is one of H's "buddies", but it looks like he didn't kick him to the curb.

Y2J acknowledges the recent Sean Waltman Torch interview, where Waltman claims he helped Jericho when he first hit the WWE. Sean stated that he helped Y2J learn the "WWF or main event-style of working", Chris says he did but felt it was more of a territorial thing. Instead of working a WCW style or Japanese style Jericho had to learn the way fans of the WWF liked to see their wrestling, and Waltman did help him in that endeavor. Chris thinks it's hard to put it into words what that WWF/WWE style is, but feels that veryone that comes into the WWE has to take some time to catch on to it.

read the whole thing here

Also be on the lookout for Russo who booked, not H. But he does say things about HHH - mainly how he picked the end of a moronic FREE TLC match to start the Katie Vick angle.

EDIT: redsox - you are right. I hated both of them and got confused. Why do that shit for free? and over and over?

anyway, in retrospect, it was hardly the "smear" as it was made out to be. The rest of that is all subjective to which "rumor" you wanted to believe...

FLEA

(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 18.5.04 1558)


Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high...

FLEA - 1ryderfakin.com - THE IWC 100! And The Wrestling Dead Pool!!
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 477 days
Last activity: 477 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    Also be on the lookout for Russo who booked, not H. But he does say things about HHH - mainly how he picked the end of a moronic FREE TLC match to start the Katie Vick angle. That's neither here nor there - personally, I hated that match (correct me if I'm wrong - I think that's where Benoit broke his neck...he worked after that, but I'm pretty sure that's where he got hurt legit)...anyway, in retrospect, it was hardly the "smear" as it was made out to be. The rest of that is all subjective to which "rumor" you wanted to believe...

    FLEA






Different TLC match Flea. The one where the Katie Vick utter stupidity began was October '02 on the RAW Roulette Show, which was one of the better RAW's in a while, until that sucked the ending out of the show. By that point, Benoit had returned from the neck surgery and was on SD as the Smackdown Six Era was beginning.

(edited by redsoxnation on 18.5.04 1551)


These are desperate times. And desperate times call for desperate measures. Thus, its time to break out the Cubs/White Sox/Red Sox call to put the Kaiser back on the throne.
JoshMann
Andouille








Since: 17.11.03
From: Tallahassee, FL

Since last post: 2290 days
Last activity: 2287 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.90
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    Also be on the lookout for Russo who booked, not H. But he does say things about HHH - mainly how he picked the end of a moronic FREE TLC match to start the Katie Vick angle. That's neither here nor there - personally, I hated that match (correct me if I'm wrong - I think that's where Benoit broke his neck...he worked after that, but I'm pretty sure that's where he got hurt legit


Actually the one you're thinking was the Smackdown the Thursday after Jericho/Benoit won the tag titles from HHH/Austin (where HHH blew out his quad) in May 2001, won by the Chrises but was also the one where Benoit messed himself up a bit...the TLC match on RAW that jump-started the Katie Vick angle was in October of 2002, after the match was won by Team HurriKane.







(edited by Blanket Jackson on 18.5.04 1607)


I expect you fans, you people here in LA to do what you do best. RIOT!
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 14 hours
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
"I remember the uproar when that happened...and I'm pretty sure Austin and UT started that "idea", when Austin was way to crippled to work for real."

Austin's injuries caused a change in main events to walkaround brawls so that Austin could physically do them and they could still provide main event matches with action in them. "WWF style" is more like their basic psychology of what the face does and what the heel does and playing to the crowd and when you make your comebacks and bumping on every punch instead of every third. I'm not a wrestler, and I broke my brother's arm with a botched Doomsday Device when I was 10, so I couldn't define it. But that's what it's referring to.

"mainly how he picked the end of a moronic FREE TLC match to start the Katie Vick angle. That's neither here nor there - personally, I hated that match (correct me if I'm wrong - I think that's where Benoit broke his neck...he worked after that, but I'm pretty sure that's where he got hurt legit)"

If you care, there were two free TLCs.
October '02 on Raw in Vegas saw Kane defeat Jericho & Christian, RVD & Jeff, and Bubba & Spike. Then HHH dropped the Kane is a murderer bombshell.

May '01 on Smackdown in Anaheim saw Benoit & Jericho beat Edge & Christian, the Hardys, and the Dudleys. This was the match that started (or quickly sped up) Benoit's neck problems.

"anyway, in retrospect, it was hardly the "smear" as it was made out to be."

What was? That HHH and his peeps said Jericho couldn't work and shouldn't be a main eventer? I guess it's "subjective to which 'rumor' I want to believe," but the idea that it was actually Rock who kept Jericho out of main events doesn't really hold up to much (any) scrutiny.


"It amazes me after all this time people still blame HHH for all evils."

It makes sense to me so long as you give credit where it's due. Namely, that if you've loved Raw in 2004 (I have, Frank hasn't, from what I've read here and the Other places) you've got to give a whole lot of credit to HHH, not just for his matches and putting Benoit over, but the big picture overall, as he and Michaels (and Foley and Jericho for their specific programs) have taken charge of the direction of the show.

As far as blaming him for bad stuff, some people still really underestimate HHH's amount of influence -- it's all but his company, basically. After Vince, of course, but he's the owner's son-in-law (with a really close relationship), the head writer's husband, and, at the very least, controls everything in his own programs. He'd be hard-pressed to find more power to wield, short of Vince dying.

(edited by JMShapiro on 18.5.04 1328)
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2867 days
Last activity: 2660 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Dave Gagnon posted:

>> He made Goldberg look like a million bucks.

Actually Trip stalled facing Goldberg for as
long as possible to ensure that Goldberg could
NOT have a long, successful run on top. Trip
really had no excuse for stalling.

Then when Trip finally faced Goldberg it was
in a heavily gimmicked match where Goldberg
didn't get to participate until the very end.
Yeah, I know, Trip had an excuse.

Wait, it gets better. Trip was too injured
to face Goldberg one-on-one, so who gets the
big win in the gimmicked match when the crowd
is ready to orgasm for Goldberg?

Ever notice how when other people are falling
apart and unable to work they are criticized
for not "sucking it up", yet Trip gets to use
his injuries to ruin booking plans?

I'll agree with JMShapiro, if you like RAW the
way it is, with the spotlight on Trip and Benoit
carrying the title as a supporting star, by all
means give Trip the credit.

As I've said before, I don't mind Benoit playing
second fiddle, but it is annoying that Trip's
need to dominate the spotlight and get a little
heat by stealing it from everyone else tends
to screw up booking for everyone from Benoit to
Kane to Booker to Jericho to Edge and even to
Rock during his occaisional comebacks.

If Trip could stay on top by being the best I
wouldn't complain, even if I personally didn't
care for him (I wasn't fond of Stone Cold or
the Rock either, but they were over, and not
simply by default), but unfortunately the only
way Trip can stay on top is to keep knocking
down or burying everyone else in the company.

And no, I don't blame Trip for Taker's matches,
but it's no accident that Taker was sent over
to ruin that other brand and that the closest
Trip has come to SmackDown! was a one night
stand with hot act Eddy Guerrero. All the
brand split has done is spare Trip and Taker
the discomfort of jobbing to each other.

Frank
CHAPLOW
Morcilla








Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

Since last post: 126 days
Last activity: 126 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.30
Like someone up there mentioned; Trip and Michaels are gonna be facing off again, this time at Bad Blood.
What the?! So its still not over eh? As Triple H himself once said it, "It will never be over between us two Shawn!" ...and then I let off a long sigh.

When is this whole damn Trip/Shawn thing gonna be over?
I guess one of them has to die or foolishly enough; they become friends again! (yay you guys!) Which would be- complicatedly put, a terrible frutitation of the very fabric that encompasses the essence of the main conflict in the WWE's storyline. This conflict keeps going and its always the same thing, and guess what? there is no end in sight... the WWE is obviously gonna milk this thing to the last dime...and after the last dime, there's Canadian dollars.



"There can be no thought without human conciousness.
There can be no conciousness if I just knocked you out with some chloroform."
-Anonymous Japanese Proverb
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 303 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.03
Thoughts:
As mentioned in another thread, Benoit seems to be more Steamboat than Garvin to HHH's Flair. Michaels seems to be the Funk to HHH's Flair, always beaten-up and semi-retired, but managing to pull out a good match from time-to-time. I can't figure out an easy comparison to Orton, but he's much better than Lex Luger was...wrestling-wise at least. Promos...he'll get better. Benoit has.

As for the return of The Rock, he seems to be one of the superstars (the others being Mick Foley and Stone Cold) that can perform inside the ring and out whenever they feel like showing up. Shawn Michaels was like that before he came back full-time (or close to it). If Michaels hadn't been able to perform in the ring, chances are his act would've gotten real stale real fast (like Austin's did for a while).

The Coach annoys me. Paul Bearer does, too, but he's merely a mouthbox to protect the mystique of the Undertaker. Or, at least, he WAS back when Taker didn't talk at all. Now that we all know he CAN talk, Bearer's pretty useless.

I'm much more interested (for now) in seeing Kane vs. Benoit than Edge vs. Benoit, especially since the Good Friends/Better Enemies angle has been played out many, many times (most notable with Benoit & Kurt Angle a year or so ago on Smackdown). Let's see how Kane can do in a main event.




THE NHL'S FINAL FOUR:
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I think most of the other posters were referring to the recapper's words, not yours. If you want to comment on the spoilers, that's fine by me. But if you are sending in the spoilers personally, JUST TELL US WHAT HAPPENED!
- Torchslasher, Smackdown Spoilers for 11/13 (2003)
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