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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW Is Bischoff (2/17) (Page 2)
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Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2927 days
Last activity: 2720 days
#21 Posted on

    Originally posted by ICEMAN

    The JR sqaush was the perfect time for SCSA to do a run-in but I can understand why they didn't.



How many people here would buy the PPV just to see the
first moment when Austin returns to the WWE, even if
he wasn't facing Kendo Nagasaki's adopted son Eric on
the PPV?

I think the theory of making people pay for just an
appearance is wrong. This time the WWE seems to
agree as they panicked and booked the relatively
pointless match with Bischoff, but if you're selling
the match with Bischoff, why not have a run-in to
get your television audience more excited?

Because Bruce Mitchell and Dave Meltzer think you'll
get thousands of buys just to see Austin's return?

Personally I would have had Austin come back during
the cycle. The live audiences felt burned when the
WWE teased him and didn't deliver. Using the garbage
storyline elements already given, I'd have done this.

Week 1) Eric makes RAW magazine offer to Austin

Week 2) Austin shows up to accept offer, but also
gives Eric a hard time about WCW stuff and won't sign

Week 3) The RAW article is out, so Eric has acted in
good faith, but Austin keeps jerking him around

Week 4) Vince comes to fire Eric, but Eric tells him
he has a secret plan. Vince is apparently convinced
and relents. Eric then punks out Jim Lost. Austin
runs in, but gets attacked by Storm, Regal, & Morley.

Week 5) Austin goes to Vince, demanding a chance to
get even with Eric. Vince, who has been in league
with Eric all along, forces Austin to sign with RAW
in exchange for a one-on-one match with Eric at NWO.

Same crapola, but done in a logical fashion that
builds, with Austin still having some scores to
settle with Morley and the others after the PPV.
It explains why Austin signed with RAW despite
his hatred of Eric and despite Eric punking out
his chubby friend.

Is this stuff that hard to write right?

Frank
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#22 Posted on
HHH has held the belt since it was brought out on Raw, and they've fed him face after face, even brought in SteinerTime. You know, maybe his holding the belt so long IS a build up unto itself. Look at how many people go ape when HHH gets pinned in a tag team match. People here, on the board, and the marks. Now, it looks like it'll be Booker T vs. HHH at Mania for the belt. Now, whether or not HHH regains at Backlash, or Booker and HHH go on to feud all the way until KotR, HHH will regain. However, Booker T will go up by leaps and bounds by being the man that could give old Trips a run for his money.

Good Raw as well.



In the name of good taste, I will no longer say anything about people who run wrestling websites and cats.
Ubermonkeys
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02
From: Michigan

Since last post: 3576 days
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#23 Posted on
Shawn won the belt in the Elimination Chamber.



I have never, nor will I ever see a vending machine that was all Milky Way.
Phoenix37
Haggis








Since: 31.1.03
From: NP, Rhode Island

Since last post: 3165 days
Last activity: 2773 days
AIM:  
#24 Posted on
    Originally posted by Spiraling_Shape
    I mean, Jericho's match was just SCREAMING for Test to run down, take the key, and give it to Michaels. But, nothing - no Test/Jericho in the match listing, no GGW update which was listed in the Raw preview on wwe.com, no Test on the show at all. Not exactly a great way to build up a match on a PPV - assuming it still exists.



Test had a match earlier in the night against Rico for Heat, so he was in attendance. Stacy; however, was not there. She probably was detained by the weather. Seeing that Stacy wasn't there, that's probably the reason they didn't use Test. Although a run-in against Jericho would have made sense and really didn't need Stacy. I got the feeling after seeing Jericho in a rage after losing to Jeff that they were setting something up there between those two. Boy o boy, Jericho now has a feud with Test, HBK and now Hardy?!?! They really need to make up their minds which one their going to go with here!


(edited by Phoenix37 on 18.2.03 0204)

(edited by Phoenix37 on 18.2.03 0208)

From The Ashes - A Phoenix Will Rise
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2927 days
Last activity: 2720 days
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54

    Originally posted by Ubermonkeys
    Shawn won the belt in the Elimination Chamber.


I hate to post off topic, but how can a guy whose
experience total looks like a phone number still
be ranked as a "jobber to the stars?" Please don't
tell me that this is all random. I'm an atheist,
but I'd like to believe that someone or something
is controlling these message boards.

Frank

("Good hand")
Phoenix37
Haggis








Since: 31.1.03
From: NP, Rhode Island

Since last post: 3165 days
Last activity: 2773 days
AIM:  
#26 Posted on
A bit off topic here.... but can someone please tell me how I can get my little picture thingy on the left to appear! Thanks in advance



From The Ashes - A Phoenix Will Rise
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2927 days
Last activity: 2720 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54

    Originally posted by Phoenix37
    A bit off topic here.... but can someone please tell me how I can get my little picture thingy on the left to appear! Thanks in advance


Perhaps if you loaded it onto the internet...

Or alternatively you could share your local
hard drive with the entire world.
Frank

(You're never too new to give smarmy advice to
people with even less experience than yourself.)
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3320 days
Last activity: 3320 days
#28 Posted on
Making people pay is the objective. Austin's got a shitload of loyal fans, more then probably any other wrestler. I think a lot of people would pay to see his first appearance back. Even if they don't, I'd rather take that risk then just saying screw it and giving it away for free.

However, the way they've gone about it isn't very good. They've diluted Austin's return with the Bischoff "match". I guess they figured they've jerked around the fans so much, no one believed Austin would really show up at No Way Out.

I would have ended RAW this week with the glass shattering, Austin steps out of the entrance and hit that copyright notice. Just to show everybody that they are delivering him at No Way Out. Anything more then that and they would have killed his return because they have/had no big return match in mind for No Way Out.

Personally, I don't think he should wrestle until Mania but they'll panic and rush it.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 1 day
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AIM:  
#29 Posted on

    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    Because Bruce Mitchell and Dave Meltzer think you'll get thousands of buys just to see Austin's return?

Well, considering they did the same thing last year with the nWo, and they popped a much higher buyrate than usual for an off-month PPV, I'd say there's something to the theory. They should have had Austin appear after the show went off the air to give the live audience their jollies like last week, but for the rest of the world, Austin should not return until you have to pay for the priviledge. Even if just 5,000 more people decide to pay to see Austin return, that's still something like $75,000 in extra revenue for WWE. And considering IIRC something like 50,000 or so more than usual bought No Way Out last year, now you're looking at some huge cash at stake.



The Most Bitter Place On The Net.

The current artist tickling my fancy: Brenda Weiler


Immortality
Excalibur05
Knackwurst








Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

Since last post: 27 days
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#30 Posted on

    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    Is this stuff that hard to write right?


Apparently, yes, because I don't find your solution any more palatable than theirs.

They've taken most of the right steps. They're promoting Austin for No Way Out, and that's when they'll deliver him. Just jamming him onto a RAW, with ANY storyline, doesn't help. Let him come out at the Pay Per View, and give fans who paid to see him first shot. He'll stunner Bischoff, drink some beer, his fans will all say "Yay! It's Stone Cold" and then the shmoes who didn't pay to see it will get it the next night. That's when he'll get integrated into stories and the such.

Wrestling is above all, a business, a point which has been driven harder and harder at us in the past couple months. There was a time when nobody gave a rats ass what ratings the show was drawing, but over the last several years we've been pouring over every quarter hour. Well, listen, if Ausitn is going to pop an anything you'll want it to be a buyrate.

If he comes back on TV, great, I'm sure there'd be a ratings surge, but as the novelty wears off, it'll start to normalize again. No real long term benifit, other than his return and some fans. If he comes out on PPV, you pop a buyrate get the cash that's inherent in doing so (you don't directly get cash from a few good TV ratings), get the same fans you would have before, Austin, and probably get some good TV ratings from the people who didn't order the PPV and still want to see him.

The WWE is doing the right thing in not rushing things. They've rushed things too often before, and it's gotten them nearly nothing in return. It's not like they're breaking anyone's heart here. Austin WILL be back, and he'll be back when they say he will, expecting him any sooner is foolish.

Would it have been nice to see him pop up before the PPV, yeah sure. But that doesn't mean it's the best thing for the company as a business, nor does it mean that it's the best thing for the fans/story. I've been more than satisfied with the build towards his return, and I look forward to seeing him back, both Sunday night and on subsequent Mondays.



RAW Satire 2/17
Buffy 7.14 gets a 7.10 WAY better than last week, and I like the Principal Wood character alot.
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2927 days
Last activity: 2720 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54

    Originally posted by spf2119

      Originally posted by Boston Idol
      Because Bruce Mitchell and Dave Meltzer think you'll get thousands of buys just to see Austin's return?

    Well, considering they did the same thing last year with the nWo, and they popped a much higher buyrate than usual for an off-month PPV, I'd say there's something to the theory.



Ahh, but here's the problem. They've killed themselves
during sweeps because their bait-and-switch cuteness
turned off viewers. Also they may have undermined fan
support for the character of Stone Cold. He's supposed
to be a renegade who shows up on his terms, not some
flunky who only appears when he is booked to appear.

The nWo may have drawn higher buyrates, but they didn't
help the more important sweeps ratings (the WWE gets
lots of money from advertising too, at least when the
ratings are strong) and they didn't have much longevity
when they finally showed up because fans stopped buying
into the bait-and-switch hype for their return.

The first week Bischoff made it clear that Austin was
going to return at the PPV doing something, yet the
second week when Bischoff started into a promo for
the already announced magazine article the live fans
booed like hell as if they had been ripped off. That
is the problem, they expected Austin to appear even
though he wasn't scheduled because that has always
been the nature of his character in the past.

Oops.

We'll see if it hurts Austin's character long term.
I suspect he's also going to look a lot older like
Lawler did after a few months away. And whether his
"first appearance" increases buys and doesn't affect
his longevity or not, the WWE already tanked sweeps.

Double oops.

Frank

"The basics are the basics because they work."
- Bruce Mitchell
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 5 hours
AIM:  
#32 Posted on
Idol, on what grounds do you say they have tanked their sweeps ratings? Since Royal Rumble they have had 4 Raw's, 2 of them in Feb. sweeps. The first one after Royal Rumble did a 3.8. The next one did a 4.1. The first one in Feb. did a 3.5. The most recent one before last night's did a 3.9. There are still 2 more Raw ratings that need to come in before Feb's total numbers are even able to be calculated.

For reference sake, the November sweeps saw Raw do a 3.5, 3.1, 3.7, and a 3.4. So for the month that is supposedly tanking their sweeps, they already have one rating higher than their highest November sweeps rating, and the other rating thus far in Feb. equals the 2nd highest out of 4 November sweeps.

I'm not going to argue whether or not this was an effective move in terms of long-term storylines or character development, as frankly I think there are better ways they could have booked this. But to say this is a bad business decision I don't believe is borne out by the numbers. Now if tomorrow the Raw rating comes in at 2.9 then I'll eat my words. But if it comes in in the mid to high 3's or beyond, then I fail to see where WWE is hurting themself. Unless you believe that somehow Austin's return could have raised their ratings into the mid 4's or higher, which I would say would have been highly unlikely.

(edited to give 411Wrestling the credit for the Ratings #'s)

(edited by spf2119 on 18.2.03 0240)


The Most Bitter Place On The Net.

The current artist tickling my fancy: Brenda Weiler


Immortality
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2927 days
Last activity: 2720 days
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
: Apparently, yes, because I don't find your
: solution any more palatable than theirs.

Serves me right for asking.
: They've taken most of the right steps.

Vince made the match because why?

Austin agreed to the match because why?

Eric punked out Ross because why?

None of those major elements of the making
of this match made any sense at the time.
The WWE has panicked and tried to create
reasons after the fact, but that doesn't
mean the actions make sense as presented.

: They're promoting Austin for No Way Out,
: and that's when they'll deliver him.

They got heavily booed and later got silence
as live fans felt burned by bait-and-switch
cuteness surrounding the Austin announcements.
You and I can agree that Eric made it crystal
clear in his first statement, but the fans still
booed the next week and that is what counts.

It isn't good business to burn your fanbase,
especially the ones paying money to see shows.

: Just jamming him onto a RAW, with ANY
: storyline, doesn't help.

I didn't just jam him into RAW. The storyline
that Eric was trying to lure him back by giving
him a chance to vent in RAW magazine and by
kissing his butt on RAW is just as good if
not better than what the WWE has been doing.

: Let him come out at the Pay Per View, and
: give fans who paid to see him first shot.

The fans at those house shows seemed to feel
that they deserved to see him too, but who
needs house shows and hot crowds, right?

And the fans at home watching two hours of
bait-and-switch teasers, who needs them either.
Let them go watch 'Joe Millionaire' and make
them buy the pay-per-view instead.

The three legs of the business do not stand
independantly. People like Meltzer and
Mitchell who focus solely on PPV don't seem
to grasp the modern model of the business
where television is a revenue source rather
than a loss leader and where hot live shows
bring in money and fuel both ratings and
buyrates by making the product seem like
one of the hottest forms of entertainment.

Instead the WWE gets booing or silence at
live shows and on TV as ratings suffer.
They'll be left with one leg to stand on,
and based on last year's lessons that leg
won't last long on it's own.

: He'll stunner Bischoff, drink some beer,
: his fans will all say "Yay! It's Stone
: Cold" and then the shmoes who didn't pay
: to see it will get it the next night.

If they bother to tune in at all. You
can't burn people indefinitely, even
pro wrestling fans.
: That's when he'll get integrated into
: stories and the such.

He's already been integrated into a story,
just in totally nonsensical fashion. And
don't hold your breath for a better story
in the next cycle as he's likely going to
face the Rock in a blowoff match at Mania.

: Wrestling is above all, a business,

See ad revenues and house show gate receipts...

"What?"
- Meltzer and Mitchell

: a point which has been driven harder and harder
: at us in the past couple months. There was a
: time when nobody gave a rats ass what ratings
: the show was drawing, but over the last several
: years we've been pouring over every quarter hour.
: Well, listen, if Ausitn is going to pop an anything
: you'll want it to be a buyrate.

Austin _wrestling_ after all these months should
pop a buyrate and since the WWE is already selling
Austin _wrestling_ on the next PPV there is little
point in saving Austin _showing up_ as another draw.

With the nWo it was supposed to be _show up_ on
the first PPV and _wrestle_ on the second PPV,
but audiences were so sick of the bait and switch
that the WWE ended up giving away _wrestle_.

: If he comes back on TV, great, I'm sure there'd
: be a ratings surge, but as the novelty wears off,
: it'll start to normalize again.

Nah, unlike Trip, Austin is a ratings draw. The
ratings already spiked on speculation that he
would return, but they fell again when it became
clear that RAW was just a jackoff, if you'll
pardon the coarse metaphor.
: No real long term benifit, other than his return
: and some fans.

What is the _long term benefit_ of _one_ buyrate?
They'd make more money off advertising based on
an increase in ratings during sweeps.

"What?"
- Meltzer and Mitchell

And that surge in interest would fuel excitement
going into Wrestlemania, prompting better buyrates.

"What?"
- Meltzer and Mitchell

And since Austin's first _wrestling_ appearance is
likely to spike the No Way Out buyrate as much or
more than a _showing up_ appearance, the WWE would
not have lost anything by putting him on RAW anyway.

"What?"
- Meltzer and Mitchell

Same boost to the buyrate based on first _wrestling_,
better ratings during sweeps,
and higher customer satisfaction going toward Mania.

Frankly Meltzer and Mitchell have locked themselves
in the tower on this one. All they are looking at
is one buyrate, a short term payoff in only one part
of a multi-part business. I'm the one looking long
term and trying to mazimize all aspects of the business.

: The WWE is doing the right thing in not rushing things.

Was I rushing things? Once you decide to have Austin
_wrestle_ on the PPV, the fact that he is also just
going to be there is moot.

: They've rushed things too often before, and it's gotten
: them nearly nothing in return.

They did the same bait-and-switch nonsense last year
and blew sweeps and blew support for the nWo. They
got one buyrate, plus Hogan vs Rock but that would
have drawn anyway. So much for long term planning
and taking it slow. They shot that whole wad over
two pay-per-views.

: It's not like they're breaking anyone's heart here.

I heard a lot of booing and a lot of crickets.
You think the WWE can simply abuse fans who
pay money to attend house shows? Think again.
That's why they have so many empty seats now.

: Austin WILL be back, and he'll be back when they
: say he will, expecting him any sooner is foolish.

He's Austin. In the past he showed up whenever
he damn well pleased. The character sets the
expectation. Failure to deliver undermines the
character. They killed off the nWo in two months
and tanked sweeps in the process. Not smart.

: Would it have been nice to see him pop up before
: the PPV, yeah sure.

Forget "nice", I'm no fan of Austin, I'm arguing
from a business standpoint. You seem willing to
ignore two-thirds of the business model, foresaking
the TV fans who generate ad revenue and the house
show fans who buy tickets and merch because you
think PPV fans are the only fans who matter.

Like Meltzer and Mitchell, you just don't get it.

: I've been more than satisfied with the build
: towards his return,

You're in the minority judging by the response
from house show fans and from TV fans online.

Does it make good sense to cater to the minority?

: and I look forward to seeing him back, both
: Sunday night and on subsequent Mondays.

I look forward to better storytelling than we
have been seeing lately where matches are made
for no reason, then dumb stuff is done also for
no reason to give the already made match a reason.

Cart before the horse... and screw house show and
television fans in the process because who needs
those two sources of revenue anyway, right?

Frank
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#34 Posted on
Dear God, I hope that wasn't your signature. I gave up reading it about 2672 lines down...

The reason they gave for Vince making the match was that he hates Bischoff, and wanted to let him know first hand what he's gotten into by bringing Austin back. That was said at the end of last week's show before the match announcement.

Austin agreed because Bischoff is someone who he honestly hates, and that was mentioned on tv over the last couple weeks.

Eric punked out Ross because it's Austin's best friend. It's kinda like why if Jericho was having a match with Test at the PPV, Test might want a match with Jericho's friend Christian to "send a message" like they did last week.


Tribal Prophet



Wrestling exists in the eternal present. What is, has always been, and when it no longer is, it never was. It has no past and no future, and sometimes even today is in question. - Madame Manga
tomvejada
Andouille








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 4131 days
Last activity: 4131 days
#35 Posted on
Random Raw Thoughts:

Good tribute to Hennig. I also liked Jericho's gum swat.

The crowd was dead, or if you're JR, "stunned" at most of the matches.

That Steph-Carrot Top commercial was weird.

I found it strange that they didn't mention Test-Jericho.

Some of Bischoff's antics during the match against JR were funny.

Overall, another so-so RAW.



"I just got pinned by a friggin twelve-year-old."

Kurt Angle
FurryHippie
Frankfurter








Since: 29.10.02
From: New York

Since last post: 3038 days
Last activity: 1725 days
AIM:  
#36 Posted on

    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
    The reason they gave for Vince making the match was that he hates Bischoff, and wanted to let him know first hand what he's gotten into by bringing Austin back. That was said at the end of last week's show before the match announcement.

    Austin agreed because Bischoff is someone who he honestly hates, and that was mentioned on tv over the last couple weeks.

    Eric punked out Ross because it's Austin's best friend. It's kinda like why if Jericho was having a match with Test at the PPV, Test might want a match with Jericho's friend Christian to "send a message" like they did last week.


    Tribal Prophet



Boston Idol, I agree with some of your points, but Tribal Prophet just basically summed up the WWE's logic very simple. It works if you don't hunt for reasons that it doesn't work.

I've said it once, I'll say it here, and I'm sure I'll say it again sometime down the road - if you don't look at it as brain surgery, the simple steps WWE take sometimes *do* have logic.



ahem....

BOO-yah!
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 5 hours
AIM:  
#37 Posted on

    What exactly did Nowinski do to get his push killed, though?

What push?



Matthew: You would've loved it, David. A week in a foreign country, strange people, strange customs...
Dave: Oh, I know what you mean. I've been to Canada.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 537 days
Last activity: 537 days
#38 Posted on
A few RAW Thoughts:

Hmm, I've been in a half boston crab for a while. Lets see, I'll start running around after I break it then not sell it at all for the rest of the match. That, in a nutshell, is why RVD won't ever be champ.
Before people go crazy over Trip jobbing to Booker in the tag match, remember two things: He who jobs on the RAW before the PPV does not job on PPV, and Trip jobbed to Booker back in November, and it really didn't do much for him then either.
Nice to see Rodney Mack is a graduate of the Ahmed Johnson Tiger Bomb School.
Why, oh why, is Jeff Hardy being pushed? And, I was shocked no Test run-in. I did like the handcuffing of Michaels though, seemed like an NWA/WCCW move from the 80's.
J.R. in two main events in less than two months, three if you count the McMahon interview? Nice way to develop the young talent.



The only military skill provided by the French is demonstrating the methods of surrendering.
Dexley's Midnight Jogger
Pepperoni
Moderator








Since: 10.10.02
From: New Hampshire

Since last post: 320 days
Last activity: 235 days
#39 Posted on
And the return of the exploding concrete block! Although this one did appear to be stronger than the last. Didn't whatshisface smash one over some knee? I tried to block that out.



Where are you, Bunkhouse Buck?
Underwater
Boerewors








Since: 5.10.02
From: Battle Creek, Michigan

Since last post: 3336 days
Last activity: 2985 days
#40 Posted on

    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

      What exactly did Nowinski do to get his push killed, though?

    What push?



He was getting a steady amount of victories and mic time for a little while, plus they jobbed Al Snow out to him. Shortly after Maven returned, they just kinda gave up on him. I would guess it was because he pretty much sucks in the ring, but none of the tough enough kids have been good workers, so expecting him to be great seems stupid.

And I believe the last time the exploding concrete block was used was either Hall or Nash on Austin's knee. Heh, maybe they're setting up a Nash run-in at the PPV.(please God no)



It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!

Can't Do It In Real Life? Do It On Underwater. YES PLEASE
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