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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW Draft #935 4/25/11 (Page 3)
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redsoxnation
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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      Nothing like shuffling pieces around to mask the fact that they simply can't create stars anymore. Used to be you'd see a guy like Christian given a shot here, as he's got a golden chance with the amount of fan support he's going to have going into the PPV.


    What do you mean, "a guy like Christian" here? Is Miz a guy like Christian? Is Sheamus a guy like Christian? Is Del Rio, Christian's opponent in that pay-per-view, a guy like Christian?

    This sounds, to me, like a comment I have heard perpetually since I began discussing wrestling with people on the Internet. I can't tell if the problem is that there exists some myth that WWE/the WWF was ever some star-producing machine that generated Hulk Hogans like clockwork, or if it's that people have such short memories that the handful of guys who nabbed their first world title reigns within the past year and a half have already been forgotten. Either way, I don't see the argument that things are any different now than they ever were, in this specific field of discussion. I mean, somebody has to be headlining the shows, right? So as long as there are shows, there must be "stars" on them ... is it that you just don't like the ones that are there, so you decide they just aren't even there in the first place? Is it because you think in the past they've had more than [whatever number you think goes here]?

    The nature of WWE's storylines, characters ... hell, the entire product has changed so dramatically that it's worth repeating that it's almost silly to compare across eras. But there are still "stars" there.







The problem they have is no longer the 'glass ceiling' of the early portion of the 2000's, but the apparent inability to build up a babyface from the post class of 2002 field. Of the guys who've come in post class of 2002, I believe only Punk has won the title as a face. They've shown a willingness to push the envelope on a young heel, but on a young face, they seem to have severe starts and stops and can never get the momentum to get over the top.
lotjx
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.02
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
      But the WWF was a completely different product in the 80's and was still successful.


    What on earth is your point? WWE posted its largest profit margin in a decade last year (source). WWE is successful today.

    (edited by TheBucsFan on 27.4.11 0031)


Compared to what it was in the 80s, its above average. You have to add inflation to the money we are talking about. WWE will always be successful now due to having a monopoly on wrestling as well as THE brand name of wrestling even though they are running away from it faster then a loose chick from Jason Vorhees. No one is saying WWE is not successful, yet they are not as popular as they were in the 80s and 90s. You can take a look at the PPV and audience figures just make sure you take out the foreign numbers for the PPVs which didn't start til X-7 or X-8, I think.

The argument is being made is they could be more popular and as high as their profit margin is, its not equaling ratings or PPV buys or even attendance. Christian reminds me of Bret or Shawn. A good tag team partner then gets a decent singles run for a few years and final a world title. Miz is really the last person to go through that type of scenario. Most guys now are singles out of the gate then get a title run then either move up or die on the vine.

(edited by lotjx on 26.4.11 1745)


The Wee Baby Sheamus.
TheBucsFan
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.86
    Originally posted by lotjx
    No one is saying WWE is not successful


Well, I'm pretty sure the user I quoted was saying exactly that, but as he never explicitly spelled it out, if he wants to claim that, then I guess I'll have to let him. But it won't be true.


    The argument is being made is they could be more popular and as high as their profit margin is, its not equaling ratings or PPV buys or even attendance.


Let me get this straight: You think WWE seeks high profits because they can lead to "ratings or PPV buys" right? That's what you're saying? I think you've got it a bit backwards.
Tribal Prophet
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      Nothing like shuffling pieces around to mask the fact that they simply can't create stars anymore. Used to be you'd see a guy like Christian given a shot here, as he's got a golden chance with the amount of fan support he's going to have going into the PPV.


    What do you mean, "a guy like Christian" here? Is Miz a guy like Christian? Is Sheamus a guy like Christian? Is Del Rio, Christian's opponent in that pay-per-view, a guy like Christian?


"A guy like Christian", means a guy that the company has shown little to no faith in. They made him ECW Champion, but to say ECW mattered more than NXT is a stretch. McMahon thinks he's too small. He's too old. He got over in another company. They have a list of reasons why NOT to push him. They have a list of reasons why NOT to push just about every midcard guy. When they do decide to, it lasts a few weeks, then when they don't reach the level they thought they should, the guy is a jobber. Sheamus, McIntyre, Swagger, Morrison, Daniels, DiBiase. All guys that got a push until someone decided they didn't have what it took, so they made them jobbers. Then they realize they don't have anyone else, so they try to make them top guys again, but the stigma of being a jobber is on them.

The Miz is doing all the work to make himself a star. The WWE has given him three or four televised wins in his four or so months as champion. The only reason he still has the belt is because he's busting his ass to get mainstream exposure. If he didn't, he would have been given the belt and then lost it just like Swagger did and Cody was supposed to.

Del Rio has a chance, they're doing everything right with the guy so far. He's been fed people (especially Christian) in the past few months. He's gotten air time on the mic and has done really good on it. So far they got a winner with him. Dolph Ziggler had a chance before he decided looking like Indy Wrestler #512 was a good career move.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    This sounds, to me, like a comment I have heard perpetually since I began discussing wrestling with people on the Internet. I can't tell if the problem is that there exists some myth that WWE/the WWF was ever some star-producing machine that generated Hulk Hogans like clockwork, or if it's that people have such short memories that the handful of guys who nabbed their first world title reigns within the past year and a half have already been forgotten. Either way, I don't see the argument that things are any different now than they ever were, in this specific field of discussion. I mean, somebody has to be headlining the shows, right? So as long as there are shows, there must be "stars" on them ... is it that you just don't like the ones that are there, so you decide they just aren't even there in the first place? Is it because you think in the past they've had more than [whatever number you think goes here]?



Giving a guy a world title does not make him a star. The titles are useless now. The WWE has made sure that fans don't think much of them after years of playing hot-potato with them. I had to check Wikipedia earlier today just to double check if I had ever won the World Title* If the fans aren't behind a guy, then he's not a star. Does anyone care that Morrison is in the main event of the PPV this week? Didn't seem like the WWE even bothered to care about it on the last RAW before it.

WCW made Goldberg a star. They didn't just put him in matches and say "he's in the main event, he's a top guy", they made the guy a bonafide star in pro-wrestling. They took a guy who was very limited in what he could do, and fed him people until fans believed he could take out the entire locker room at once. If Morrison charges down to clear the ring out of 10 heels, are people going to go nuts expecting him to do it? They won't for him or just about anyone else on the roster not named Cena or Orton.

The entire reason they had this draft was because Edge retired and McMahon realized he has no star to take his place. They had two options: An easy one where you just move a face who the crowd pops for, wins just about all of his matches, and is expected to be on or near the main event of the shows he's on. The harder option is to book a midcard guy as a winner. Take someone who has charisma and potential to move merchandise, and start feeding him people to make him look like a big player in your company instead of just another random guy given the top spot for the month.

It's just frustrating to know that McMahon knows they have no stars on Smackdown big enough to carry the show as faces, so rather than build a guy up, the bring a RAW guy over and therefore push everyone else on the show down a rung on the ladder. They got a lot of top guys (ones that have credibility with fans as top guys) that are close to calling it a day. Edge was just the first. Rey is turning 37, Jericho is 40 for when he comes back, Cena is 34, Orton is only 31 if he can stay healthy. These guys probably all gone in 5 years, and there seems to be no one in the midcard that they could move up.


*I haven't =(
It's False
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.96
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
    Giving a guy a world title does not make him a star.


This should be amended to say giving a guy the World Heavyweight Championship does not make him a star. The WWE Championship is still making stars and, one could argue, made The Miz a bonafide main eventer.

But the Big Gold Belt doesn't mean jack. Ask Jack Swagger how much winning that title did for his career.



JustinShapiro
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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.02
WWE has opened up a whole lot of new revenue streams over the last decade like DVD, bigger Wrestlemanias, expansion into international markets, new licensing opportunities, marketing history, etc that has allowed them to continue to be really profitable (along with the fact that they'll trim expenses and cut corners if they ever think they're in danger of not being profitable). Over the last few years they've also done a lot of damage to their core business. PPV is drastically down and they've killed off a lot of a lot of things that used to be easy draws like the world title, retirements and other consequence-based stipulations, and surefire big gimmick matches like Hell in a Cell and Elimination Chamber

So their core business is down, but it's not really their core business anymore, at least in terms of their profit margin -- but it's a measurable indictment of the people in the company who work exclusively at that old core business.

All that said, I think Christian has more than earned a shot at being a top player but I would never suddenly start to build a brand around him. He can still hopefully be involved in the top mix even if Orton is around as the top man. Will he? I dunno :-/

(edited by JustinShapiro on 26.4.11 2005)
Cerebus
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Since: 17.11.02

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.77
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by lotjx
      No one is saying WWE is not successful


    Well, I'm pretty sure the user I quoted was saying exactly that, but as he never explicitly spelled it out, if he wants to claim that, then I guess I'll have to let him. But it won't be true.



No, I wasn't even thinking about WWE being successful. My point is that people are still trying to compare WWE today, at this moment, to what it was in the past, and you can't do it. The only thing that's the same is the brand name.

Let's look at those profits!

1994-1995: $ 87,352,000 ($ 4,431,000 deficit)
1995-1996: $ 85,815,000 ($ 3,319,000 profit)
1996-1997: $ 81,863,000 ($ 6,505,000 deficit)
1997-1998: $ 126,231,000 ($ 8,446,000 profit)
1998-1999: $ 251,474,000 ($ 56,030,000 profit)
1999-2000: $ 373,100,000 ($ 68,973,000 profit)
2000-2001: $ 456,043,000 ($ 15,987,000 profit)
2001-2002: $ 409,622,000 ($ 42,233,000 profit)
2002-2003: $ 374,364,000 ($ 19,455,000 deficit)
2003-2004: $ 374,909,000 ($ 48,192,000 profit)
2004-2005: $ 366,431,000 ($ 39,147,000 profit)
2005-2006: $ 400,051,000 ($ 47,047,000 profit)
2006: $ 262,937,000 ($ 31,617,000 profit)
2007: $ 485,655,000 ($ 52,137,000 profit)
2008: $ 526,457,000 ($ 45,416,000 profit)
2009: $ 475,161,000 ($ 50,303,000 profit)
2010: $ 477,655,000 ($ 53,452,000 profit)

...WOW! According to this, they are making a shit load of our money.

You say the product sucks, PG is killing the business, Ratings and PPV buyrates are down. I see PG is working great, Ratings don't really matter much, PPVs are actually glorified commercials for the merchandise and they are still gonna make a shit load of money no matter what we think.

No wonder Vince doesn't want to be in the 'wrestling' business, he makes a shit load of money off the entertainment side.

I think I just like saying a shit load of money.



Forget it Josh... it's Cerebustown.
geemoney
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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.33
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
    Rey is turning 37, Jericho is 40 for when he comes back, Cena is 34, Orton is only 31 if he can stay healthy. These guys probably all gone in 5 years, and there seems to be no one in the midcard that they could move up.



I agree with most of what you said (and actually, most of what TheBucsFan said as well), but I think some of these guys, like Orton and Cena, will be around much longer than five years. The WWE style they wrestle now is very low impact compared to what they were doing years ago. The style was likely put into place so guys could have longer runs in the company. The PG environment has something to do with that, as even a PPV like Extreme Rules isn't all that extreme anymore.
Peter The Hegemon
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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet

    WCW made Goldberg a star. They didn't just put him in matches and say "he's in the main event, he's a top guy", they made the guy a bonafide star in pro-wrestling. They took a guy who was very limited in what he could do, and fed him people until fans believed he could take out the entire locker room at once. If Morrison charges down to clear the ring out of 10 heels, are people going to go nuts expecting him to do it? They won't for him or just about anyone else on the roster not named Cena or Orton.



And WCW didn't do it for anyone not named Goldberg.

The thing about the Goldberg push is that you can't do it more than once in a blue moon. For one thing, if you kept giving guys the Goldberg push, it wouldn't be special anymore. For another, if you keep doing Goldberg pushes, then everybody who doesn't get one ends up in deep jobberhood (since they have to keep jobbing decisively to the guys getting pushed) and you bury too much of the roster. So they gave Cena something very much like the Goldberg push, and they gave Orton something fairly like the Goldberg push, and that's probably all they can do with that. (If you want to argue that Orton was the wrong guy to push that way, I'm with you, but it would still be one guy.)

Now, I'm not arguing with you on the bigger picture that they need to do a better job creating stars. But they've got to get over in different ways.
TheBucsFan
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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.86
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
        Nothing like shuffling pieces around to mask the fact that they simply can't create stars anymore. Used to be you'd see a guy like Christian given a shot here, as he's got a golden chance with the amount of fan support he's going to have going into the PPV.


      What do you mean, "a guy like Christian" here? Is Miz a guy like Christian? Is Sheamus a guy like Christian? Is Del Rio, Christian's opponent in that pay-per-view, a guy like Christian?


    "A guy like Christian", means a guy that the company has shown little to no faith in.


So what you said is, it used to be that this was a spot where they would get behind someone they have no faith in? I disagree with that. Maybe you can give me a specific example of what WWE used to do that it's not doing here?


    The Miz is doing all the work to make himself a star.


This is just silly. It implies that a) WWE has nothing to do with Miz's popularity, which is silly, and that b) "stars" before Miz were just picked out of a crowd and *poof* they were famous. Everyone who has become a superstar in WWE has done it by busting their ass, AND by taking advantage of exposure that only WWE can offer them.


    WCW made Goldberg a star. They didn't just put him in matches and say "he's in the main event, he's a top guy", they made the guy a bonafide star in pro-wrestling.


Is this a joke? It's one guy. Has WWE not made a star out of one guy in your view? In the past decade? If WCW can still get credit for Goldberg, why can't WWE still ride the credibility it got from Austin? (Not that WWE needs to.)


    Rey is turning 37, Jericho is 40 for when he comes back, Cena is 34, Orton is only 31 if he can stay healthy. These guys probably all gone in 5 years


I'm not disagreeing with any of this. What I'm disagreeing with is, in this statement by you and others:


    they simply can't create stars anymore


... the implication that things are any different now than they ever were. This stuff has always been true.


    there seems to be no one in the midcard that they could move up.


Now this I disagree with. Once again, it's something I think that has always been said. The fact is, there can only be a limited number of people who are, like, at the very top. Austin/Taker became Rock/Austin became Rock/HHH became Austin/HHH and so on until it became Cena/Batista or Cena/Orton or Cena/HHH or whatever combos. There are often third or even fourth pieces also lingering around near the top. But they never have had and almost certainly never will have a roster full of viable main eventers. It's just an unreasonable expectation. If Cena and Orton and whoever else suddenly went on the shelf, then they would get behind one of their myriad other young former world champs who already have that bit of credibility and are just a renewed push away from being believable as top guys again.

Really, the only time in WWE's history that I can't think of that is even close to your idealist scenario is when the Rock was waiting in the wings when Austin went down. Rock was kind certainly a star before that, and then he really took off with Austin out of the picture in 2000. But that's the Rock, dude. A once-in-a-lifetime performer.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 27.4.11 0851)
Tribal Prophet
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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      "A guy like Christian", means a guy that the company has shown little to no faith in.


    So what you said is, it used to be that this was a spot where they would get behind someone they have no faith in? I disagree with that. Maybe you can give me a specific example of what WWE used to do that it's not doing here?


When the Rockers broke up they though Jannetty would be the breakout star. He screwed up of course, and so they had to salvage what they could with the "other guy" on the team. While they may not have said "The guy will be our greatest worker ever", they held back from the lazy booking of late that would have him look like a loser to fans for years, and then wonder why fans think he's a loser when they tried to make him Mr. Wrestlemania. There's a history of midcard guys that they thought would never headline their shows, but they were smart enough to not ruin their current standing with the fans just because of that. I am sure McMahon never thought Bret Hart would be one of his greatest wrestlers, but at least they didn't pair him up with a giant Eagle mascot for no reason while having him lose to every top guy on the show.

The bigger picture isn't that they show little to no faith in Christian, it's that they show little to no faith in *anyone*. They start giving a guy a push, then decide for some stupid reason (for example, they are confident) to job them out for a while.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan

      The Miz is doing all the work to make himself a star.


    This is just silly. It implies that a) WWE has nothing to do with Miz's popularity, which is silly, and that b) "stars" before Miz were just picked out of a crowd and *poof* they were famous. Everyone who has become a superstar in WWE has done it by busting their ass, AND by taking advantage of exposure that only WWE can offer them.


The Miz is still champion because he is great on mainstream tv. Were it not for the fact that they are on a rush for mainstream press, his reign would most likely have been a failure like Swaggers was, and like Cody and Drew's would have been had they not broken their own record time in killing their pushes.

What has the WWE done to make The Miz look like a threat to anyone? What have they done to protect him at all? Another wrestler might be able to get by with less charisma than The Miz because the company would put them in spots where they are physically impressive (doesn't have to be a show of strength. Someone can win through good booking and look impressive) and that could mask shortcomings.

Right now they are doing that actually. They're doing it to Mason Ryan. They have him out there in big spots such as the last RAW guy in the battle royal, and they give him these spots regularly. The problem is, instead of a few months in training, the guy needs a few more years. So what will happen is they will give up on him because he really does look out of place in a wrestling ring. They'll use whatever push they're giving him now to make him job to other guys until the day comes where he's actually decent in the ring, and then they will call him Chris Masters.

If you think I mean The Miz would be on TMZ without the WWE then you're misunderstanding what I said. I am talking simply booking and WWE-related. To say that people in the WWE get exposure on WWE tv that people not in the WWE don't get, I am willing to concede that point to you.


    WCW made Goldberg a star. They didn't just put him in matches and say "he's in the main event, he's a top guy", they made the guy a bonafide star in pro-wrestling.


Is this a joke? It's one guy. Has WWE not made a star out of one guy in your view? In the past decade? If WCW can still get credit for Goldberg, why can't WWE still ride the credibility it got from Austin? (Not that WWE needs to.)

My point was that the company booked him to be a star. They had a guy, saw his shortcomings but also his potential as a draw, and put a plan in motion. They didn't just sit back and wait for the next Austin or Rock to show up, which is what McMahon is doing. When the next Austin and Rock didn't show up for years, McMahon went back and got Austin and Rock to be the new Austin and Rock.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan

      there seems to be no one in the midcard that they could move up.


    Now this I disagree with. Once again, it's something I think that has always been said. The fact is, there can only be a limited number of people who are, like, at the very top. Austin/Taker became Rock/Austin became Rock/HHH became Austin/HHH and so on until it became Cena/Batista or Cena/Orton or Cena/HHH or whatever combos. There are often third or even fourth pieces also lingering around near the top. But they never have had and almost certainly never will have a roster full of viable main eventers. It's just an unreasonable expectation. If Cena and Orton and whoever else suddenly went on the shelf, then they would get behind one of their myriad other young former world champs who already have that bit of credibility and are just a renewed push away from being believable as top guys again.


There is always a top one or two guys. But you have a company that used to have Jericho, Angle, Benoit, Edge, Triple H, Undertaker, Cena, Batista, Michaels, JBL, Orton, and Big Show all in the main event scene in a couple years period. These were all guys that could be put into a feud for the title and fans would have bought it. Now it's just Cena/Orton and whoever random person is trying to take their title. Even guys that are in and out of the main event picture like Kane, Big Show, and Rey won't be around much longer. Punk looks to be heading out soon too.

These young former world champs like Swagger have the rep of being jobbers to big name guys. The fact that when anyone from the Attitude Era (which I think is highly praised without deserving it, btw) goes face to face in a promo against any of the WWE Universe guys, it just shows how out of their league the Universe group is.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Really, the only time in WWE's history that I can't think of that is even close to your idealist scenario is when the Rock was waiting in the wings when Austin went down. Rock was kind certainly a star before that, and then he really took off with Austin out of the picture in 2000. But that's the Rock, dude. A once-in-a-lifetime performer.



I think from your pairing of stars earlier, and this last statement, your argument is that there are only 2 stars in a company at a time. I am saying that they used to be able to "mix and match" guys around. A few years ago, Cena could have Triple H, Benoit, Jericho, Batista, Undertaker, Edge, and Orton all come out to believably say "we want a title match". These were all guys portrayed as threats to the title, and protected in their booking. The fans would have bought any matchup with them. Now, he'd have Miz, Orton, R-Truth, Morrison, and Swagger.

This company used to be run like a good sports team. They even have a farm team to pull players up from. You had a top group (not just duo), and solid midcard, and then the pre-lim guys that would start the shows off. Now, instead of a team that is always moving lower ranked guys up and looking for people to grow and develop, they start and stop so many pushes that the fans can't get behind anyone as an equal to Cena/Orton.

Having Triple H, the man arguably running the company's creative soon come out on his return and say that no one in the entire locker room is even close to a challenge to him and Taker doesn't help. Him on Ryder's True Long Island Story basically shocked to the point of insulting the interviewer that anyone could be a fan of someone they're not pushing is absurd. Cena took the question and answered it as professionally as Triple H should have, and he's NOT the guy running the place soon.

I saw in another thread that some people are wondering if guys are losing motivation to work there because Triple H is taking over given his style of humiliating guys he sees as "not as important as me", it certainly seems like he's giving a lot of guys reason to want out.

Problem is, where do they go?
lotjx
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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.01
    Originally posted by Cerebus
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        Originally posted by lotjx
        No one is saying WWE is not successful


      Well, I'm pretty sure the user I quoted was saying exactly that, but as he never explicitly spelled it out, if he wants to claim that, then I guess I'll have to let him. But it won't be true.



    No, I wasn't even thinking about WWE being successful. My point is that people are still trying to compare WWE today, at this moment, to what it was in the past, and you can't do it. The only thing that's the same is the brand name.

    Let's look at those profits!

    1994-1995: $ 87,352,000 ($ 4,431,000 deficit)
    1995-1996: $ 85,815,000 ($ 3,319,000 profit)
    1996-1997: $ 81,863,000 ($ 6,505,000 deficit)
    1997-1998: $ 126,231,000 ($ 8,446,000 profit)
    1998-1999: $ 251,474,000 ($ 56,030,000 profit)
    1999-2000: $ 373,100,000 ($ 68,973,000 profit)
    2000-2001: $ 456,043,000 ($ 15,987,000 profit)
    2001-2002: $ 409,622,000 ($ 42,233,000 profit)
    2002-2003: $ 374,364,000 ($ 19,455,000 deficit)
    2003-2004: $ 374,909,000 ($ 48,192,000 profit)
    2004-2005: $ 366,431,000 ($ 39,147,000 profit)
    2005-2006: $ 400,051,000 ($ 47,047,000 profit)
    2006: $ 262,937,000 ($ 31,617,000 profit)
    2007: $ 485,655,000 ($ 52,137,000 profit)
    2008: $ 526,457,000 ($ 45,416,000 profit)
    2009: $ 475,161,000 ($ 50,303,000 profit)
    2010: $ 477,655,000 ($ 53,452,000 profit)

    ...WOW! According to this, they are making a shit load of our money.

    You say the product sucks, PG is killing the business, Ratings and PPV buyrates are down. I see PG is working great, Ratings don't really matter much, PPVs are actually glorified commercials for the merchandise and they are still gonna make a shit load of money no matter what we think.

    No wonder Vince doesn't want to be in the 'wrestling' business, he makes a shit load of money off the entertainment side.

    I think I just like saying a shit load of money.


To be fair, they are not making the same profit they did from 1998 to 2000. I find it hard to believe they only made $15 million in 2000 to 2001 and grossed $456 million. Was that the first year they gave out stock or something. Not shocked to see 2002 to 2003 lost money.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.
Zeruel
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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
    Originally posted by lotjx
    I find it hard to believe they only made $15 million in 2000 to 2001 and grossed $456 million. Was that the first year they gave out stock or something.


XFL. Enough said.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.02
    Originally posted by lotjx
    To be fair, they are not making the same profit they did from 1998 to 2000. I find it hard to believe they only made $15 million in 2000 to 2001 and grossed $456 million. Was that the first year they gave out stock or something.


IIRC the XFL lost like $70 million.
hansen9j
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Since: 7.11.02
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
And the 2002-2003 loss was from the Times Square restaurant.



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Since: 8.6.02
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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73

I'd would like to point out, firstly, that WCW also made DDP a star. People always forget him but he was definitely over big time during the Monday Night Wars era, and he was pushed in a completely different style than Goldberg was. Goldberg was a big ass-kicker who looked stiff (because he was) and looked like he was really hurting people (because he was), and yeah, it got over. DDP's popularity was built around being that guy who would have difficult matches but would always come out on top with his awesome out of nowhere finisher. Two VERY different approaches, but both guys drew money.


    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    If Cena and Orton and whoever else suddenly went on the shelf, then they would get behind one of their myriad other young former world champs who already have that bit of credibility and are just a renewed push away from being believable as top guys again.

See this is the fundamental disagreement here. I do not think think things have always been the way they are now. When I think back to the 80's and the 90's and the Aughts, it seems to me that when they got it in their head to push people they pushed them no matter what. Were there times where they halted pushes when it just wasn't working? Sure, of course. I can think of Luger in the early 90s and Billy Gunn in the late 90s. But they kept on with Diesel, even though he sucked. They kept on with HHH during his initial WWF Title reign, which wasn't over at first. After he beat up Vince and married Stephanie, he finally seemed to gain that acceptance. Even Orton, Cena, and Batista were pushed in that mould. They haven't really and truly gotten behind anyone that strongly, and those guys were all minted six years ago. And what's more, they all got a chance to work with Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, 'Taker, Ric Flair, etc. So they certainly had great successful workers to learn from, and that's all gone now.


But intrinsically, it's the booking. There's never been a start-stop style to pushing guys more pronounced than we have today. I hated Seamus as WWE Champ, and thought he didn't deserve it, but shit or get off the pot. He's been treated like a clown for six months now, put in a riciculous plastic crown because Kevin Dunn, if you believe the rumours, who is completely fucking useless by the way, dislikes him. Swagger also, somehow, sabotaged himself. Wasn't Dolph WH Champ? I don't even know, which is bad. Yes, there will always be only a couple of tippy-top guys, but people like Seamus, Swagger, and Kofi should have been consistently pushed as top guys, beaten already entrenched top guys through some means other than wanton flukery, and better established. I think Tribal Prophet would argue, and I'd agree, that these guys are not one renewed push away from being taken seriously.




edit: grammar


(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 28.4.11 1930)

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
Nous ne nous pouvons pas sortir.
I think Jericho's a good example of a guy they had no faith in (everything after his Undisputed reign was mostly him playing hot potato with the IC title) who got treated like a million bucks when he returned. Maybe that would help someone like Punk.

As for Mason Ryan, I think he should be brought up the exact same way as Bautista. The Deacon damn sure looked like he needed a few years training but they stuck him in a stable, then a tag team, and forced him to work (seemingly) hundreds of tag matches with guys like Flair, Jericho, and Benoit in the hopes that'd train him by osmosis. And it worked.

(edited by J. Kyle on 28.4.11 1648)


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Since: 25.7.02
From: Franklin, PA

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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by J. Kyle
    As for Mason Ryan, I think he should be brought up the exact same way as Bautista. The Deacon damn sure looked like he needed a few years training but they stuck him in a stable, then a tag team, and forced him to work (seemingly) hundreds of tag matches with guys like Flair, Jericho, and Benoit in the hopes that'd train him by osmosis. And it worked.

    (edited by J. Kyle on 28.4.11 1648)


There are plenty of guys who could use some "osmosis training". It was working in bits with Luther Reigns, it'd definitely work with Ryan. What the Corre needs is a better wrestler to join. Nothing wrong with the current lineup, but no one guy in the group is good enough for the other to osmos talent off of.



I'm Charlie Owens, good night, and good luck.
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Jericho and Angle both rule all. I remember Angle's comment about Triple H's injury. (paraphrased) “You hurt your quad and had to sit out for eight months, boo hoo. Hey, I tore my quadricep this morning, and look at me! I'm fine!” HA!!!!
- ekedolphin, Jericho rules (2002)
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