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26.11.14 2002
The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #932 4/4/11 (Page 4)
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kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#61 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
I am not thrilled with waiting a year to see the only true dream match left. Prior to Raw, I had hoped maybe Miz would beat Cena, who would blame Rock, and take him out for a massive heel turn and Rock would come back at SummerSlam to fight Cena. There were lots of talk last year about Slam tanking, and I assumed this would be a nice way to get a huge buy rate for a show other than Mania for a change. Mania sells itself, doesn’t it? it seems no matter what they put out there, people will still buy Mania, unlike the other shows.

Maybe it is not out of the question to think Rock returns to the ring prior to Mania, maybe even in a tag match with wacky tag partner Cena? If not, he was the only reason I had left to watch Raw, so you can imagine my disappointment.





"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

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#62 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.98
    Originally posted by Cerebus
    Fucking hell? Can't you people just be 'happy' that you are getting a Rock/Cena match? Isn't this what you've been wanting since the rapper Cena started bitching about The Rock not caring about and turning his back on the wrestling fans? Isn't this what you wanted five years ago when Cena was annoying and you just wanted The Rock to come in and shut Cena up?

    Just be happy people!

Five years ago? Please (The W).


    but I think there's one dream match I haven't heard of from others:

    The Rock vs John Cena

    Cena's the only man worth the Rock's return, and I don't think the Rock won't make an appearance for WMXX. So how about it?




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BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

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#63 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    Even then, that show might triple or quadruple the average, but Wrestlemania with a Rock vs. Cena match could beat out Trump/McMahon for the most worldwide buys ever.


Trump/McMahon really drew that well?

    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    It'd be an interesting experiment, but If I'm Rock and I'm coming back for my first and maybe only match, I'd want it to be at Wrestlemania for maximized attention, emphasis, and sense of history. Really, if I'm anybody involved, I'd want it to be at Wrestlemania. Rock vs. Cena at Wrestlemania with a yearlong build can join the likes of Hogan/Andre, Bret/Austin, Austin/Rock, Rock/Hogan, and Undertaker/Michaels as one of the most famous and most celebrated matches in WWE and modern wrestling history.



Maybe it is just me, but Rock/Hogan really doesn't belong in that group of matches. You might have been just naming things off the top of your head, but I've seen this match up thrown around a little lately, maybe because of the situation, but that match is a WrestleMania second tier match. Warrior/Hogan, HBK/Flair, Steamboat/Savage, the three team TLC tag match all seem to trump that match in WrestleMania lore. To be fair, I've never considered rewatching that match, but maybe I should.

lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#64 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.05
The reason SummerSlam did poor was due to WWE having way too much faith in Nexus. It also didn't help that everyone figured Cena was going to be the last person standing regardless of the beating to the point even JR on twitter questioned the ending. I think Mania is really the only PPV buyrate they care about since its one of the few that can or has broken records. The rest of the year they just use the ratings to help garner money from Ad revenue as well as the money from a live audience and merchandising at said events or online or in stores.

We should all probably take Cerebus' advice and just enjoy it. Time goes by fast plus there are few interesting ways to keep the feud interesting. The real problem for the WWE is this weird holding pattern they are doing after Mania. I figure that will bore the hell out of the new fans more then the wait for Cena/Rock. Hogan/Rock is the final match we watch when my friends get together before Mania, it is not second tier. The fact they had so little time to build it and what we got makes it in the top five if three matches at Mania.

(edited by lotjx on 6.4.11 1455)


The Wee Baby Sheamus.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#65 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.71
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    To be fair, I've never considered rewatching that match, but maybe I should.


Let me suggest this: Turn the match on and don't watch the screen. Just listen to the audience. The workrate is maybe a tertiary consideration for that match. After the pinfall, turn back to the screen and watch Hogan and Rock stand together. And listen to that crowd.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
KJames199
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Since: 10.12.01
From: #yqr

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#66 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.59
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    Trump/McMahon really drew that well?
I'm not going to dig through old Observers right now, but it was the most-pushed match on the most-bought (or was it the most profitable?) Wrestlemania in history.
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    Maybe it is just me, but Rock/Hogan really doesn't belong in that group of matches.
It's kind of amazing. Turn the sound off and it's terrible. Turn the sound up high and it's just awesome to watch.
    Originally posted by hansen9j
    Meanwhile the non-Wrestlemania dream matches (Rock/Goldberg, Hogan/HBK, other matches I've forgotten which prove my point) seem basically forgotten by comparison.
Agreed. The Mania setting makes everything bigger and more memorable, even the failures (i.e., Bret/Vince).

But I will say that Shawn/Hogan is one of my favourite matches of all time.
CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
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#67 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.82
    Originally posted by KJames199
      Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
      Trump/McMahon really drew that well?
    I'm not going to dig through old Observers right now, but it was the most-pushed match on the most-bought (or was it the most profitable?) Wrestlemania in history.
"If Meltzer says it enough times, [ Justin | James | you ] will believe it."



lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#68 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.05
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by KJames199
        Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
        Trump/McMahon really drew that well?
      I'm not going to dig through old Observers right now, but it was the most-pushed match on the most-bought (or was it the most profitable?) Wrestlemania in history.
    "If Meltzer says it enough times, [ Justin | James | you ] will believe it."


I think they also stated that 23 was the most bought one or most successful one on the new Wrestlemania DVD.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#69 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.71
    Originally posted by hansen9j
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Rock vs. Cena at Wrestlemania with a yearlong build can join the likes of Hogan/Andre, Bret/Austin, Austin/Rock, Rock/Hogan, and Undertaker/Michaels as one of the most famous and most celebrated matches in WWE and modern wrestling history.
    Meanwhile the non-Wrestlemania dream matches (Rock/Goldberg, Hogan/HBK, other matches I've forgotten which prove my point) seem basically forgotten by comparison.


Yep. If your match wasn't at Wrestlemania, you can really only get into the conversation by being infamous for reasons beyond wrestling (Bret/Shawn Montreal) or by taking a beyond-sane amount of risk and physical damage at the height of wrestling's popularity (UT/Mankind HIAC).

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Even then, that show might triple or quadruple the average, but Wrestlemania with a Rock vs. Cena match could beat out Trump/McMahon for the most worldwide buys ever.


    Trump/McMahon really drew that well?


Yep, WM23 is the most-bought show of all-time. From WM20 on is when they expanded PPV internationally, so those numbers are inflated compared to the wrestling boom Wrestlemanias. 23's North America-only total is slightly lower than 17, 18, 16, 15 in that order. But it's the highest total overall by a good margin.


    Maybe it is just me, but Rock/Hogan really doesn't belong in that group of matches. You might have been just naming things off the top of your head, but I've seen this match up thrown around a little lately, maybe because of the situation, but that match is a WrestleMania second tier match. Warrior/Hogan, HBK/Flair, Steamboat/Savage, the three team TLC tag match all seem to trump that match in WrestleMania lore.


I dunno, I think it's just you. I haven't seen the Wrestlemania history DVD but I'm guessing they pooped their pants over it even with Hogan on the outs. Second-biggest PPV ever based on the standard in the above paragraph + insane crowd reaction + time-traveling dream match = has it on most people's shortlists I reckon.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 6.4.11 1703)
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#70 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.70
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by hansen9j
        Originally posted by JustinShapiro
        Rock vs. Cena at Wrestlemania with a yearlong build can join the likes of Hogan/Andre, Bret/Austin, Austin/Rock, Rock/Hogan, and Undertaker/Michaels as one of the most famous and most celebrated matches in WWE and modern wrestling history.
      Meanwhile the non-Wrestlemania dream matches (Rock/Goldberg, Hogan/HBK, other matches I've forgotten which prove my point) seem basically forgotten by comparison.


    Yep. If your match wasn't at Wrestlemania, you can really only get into the conversation by being infamous for reasons beyond wrestling (Bret/Shawn Montreal) or by taking a beyond-sane amount of risk and physical damage at the height of wrestling's popularity (UT/Mankind HIAC).




So, what would be the most famous "modern era" match in the WWF/WWE/WSEE that wasn't at Wrestlemania and didn't involve "controversey?"

IYH Stampede tag match?
Bret/Bulldog at Wembley?
Vince/Austin at St Valentine's Massacre?
Halftime Heat?



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 107 days
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#71 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.77
    Originally posted by odessasteps
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro
        Originally posted by hansen9j
          Originally posted by JustinShapiro
          Rock vs. Cena at Wrestlemania with a yearlong build can join the likes of Hogan/Andre, Bret/Austin, Austin/Rock, Rock/Hogan, and Undertaker/Michaels as one of the most famous and most celebrated matches in WWE and modern wrestling history.
        Meanwhile the non-Wrestlemania dream matches (Rock/Goldberg, Hogan/HBK, other matches I've forgotten which prove my point) seem basically forgotten by comparison.


      Yep. If your match wasn't at Wrestlemania, you can really only get into the conversation by being infamous for reasons beyond wrestling (Bret/Shawn Montreal) or by taking a beyond-sane amount of risk and physical damage at the height of wrestling's popularity (UT/Mankind HIAC).




    So, what would be the most famous "modern era" match in the WWF/WWE/WSEE that wasn't at Wrestlemania and didn't involve "controversey?"

    IYH Stampede tag match?
    Bret/Bulldog at Wembley?
    Vince/Austin at St Valentine's Massacre?
    Halftime Heat?


If Mankind/Taker at King of the Ring counts, definitely that.

If not, this is a fun question. Michaels/Taker at Badd Blood or maybe Royal Rumble 1993 or 1994 are good candidates too.
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#72 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.05
I would say Foley's title win was a famous one and watched by a lot of people as well as one of the best moments of the Attitude Era if not the WWE.




The Wee Baby Sheamus.
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 162 days
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#73 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.70
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by odessasteps
      So, what would be the most famous "modern era" match in the WWF/WWE/WSEE that wasn't at Wrestlemania and didn't involve "controversey?"

      IYH Stampede tag match?
      Bret/Bulldog at Wembley?
      Vince/Austin at St Valentine's Massacre?
      Halftime Heat?


    If Mankind/Taker at King of the Ring counts, definitely that.

    If not, this is a fun question. Michaels/Taker at Badd Blood or maybe Royal Rumble 1993 or 1994 are good candidates too.


Given that I don't remember that Foley/Taker match, I don't think so. :>

I would also throw out the RAW 10-man with the Radicals, which I guess is now a 9-man match.

(edited by CRZ on 6.4.11 2241)


Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#74 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.77
I am quite sure you remember the Foley/Undertaker KOTR match. It only featured the most replayed moment in WWE history with the possible exception of Andre being slammed by Hogan.

And was previously mentioned by JMShapyro as an example of a match that went to some extreme to gain fame away from WrestleMania.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 7.4.11 0017)
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

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#75 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.98
The Taker-Mankind and Taker-HBK HIAC's are at the top for sure. Also (?) ...

E&C vs Hardy ladder match
HHH vs Cactus street fight
HHH vs Cactus HIAC
TLC 1
Rock vs Brock
Stone Cold vs Jake Roberts. :-)

You can't disqualify matches because they're garbage matches or spotfests.

Edit: I thought we were doing non-WM PPV matches, cause otherwise the Hogan-Andre rematch is #1 with a bullet.

(edited by Mr Shh on 6.4.11 1822)


You askew my mirror. I askew yours.
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odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#76 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.70
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    I am quite sure you remember the Foley/Undertaker KOTR match. It only featured the most replayed moment in WWE history with the possible exception of Andre being slammed by Hogan.

    And was previously mentioned by JMShapyro as an example of a match that went to some extreme to gain fame away from WrestleMania.

    (edited by TheBucsFan on 7.4.11 0017)


that was at King of the Ring? I thought it took place later in the year.

Plus, that wouldn't fit the definition of the argument.

I figured it was a different match, since the post right before mine referenced Foley/Taker HIAC as one of the types of matches not under consideration.



Mark Coale
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ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#77 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.71
Does Hall and Nash vs. Sting, Luger, and Savage count? 'cause that. Hogan/Piper on MTV and Austin/Undertaker at the end of the Highway to Hell are the only other ones I can think of that haven't come up. I'd say Undertaker/Mankind is the most famous non-WM match by a large margin.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 6.4.11 2318)
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
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#78 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.70

I thought we were only talking WWF/WWE.

Of course, i doubt any WCW/NWA match would come close, even the Bash match. Maybe the finger poke of doom, for all the wrong reasons.

Also out of the time frame, but maybe Ali/Inoki?




Mark Coale
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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#79 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.71
Yeah I think the only match from WCW that would list is Bash at the Beach and I'd put it second behind HIAC and ahead of Montreal. Hogan/Goldberg would be their only other match that would be close to the conversation, and maybe the Rodman/Malone match. Sting/Hogan is their biggest buyrate but I think it was too shitty to be remembered. Maybe "Flair vs. Steamboat" as a general idea. I don't know how to separate my insiderness in evaluating how famous it is beyond hardcores but WWE-approved history does push it as a legendary match(es).

Also Melina vs. Alicia Fox.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 6.4.11 2358)
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#80 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by InVerse
      Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      it makes the next year of programming seem a complete non-starter, and will also make next year's Rumble even more superfluous than it's already becoming.


    How does this make the Rumble superfluous? Because one guy might not be in it? The *last* time John Cena won the Rumble, he didn't make it to Wrestlemania anyway. He used the shot at Elimination Chamber.


Yeah which was really, really stupid, and hurt the mystique of the Rumble. They have so few gimmicks that are still good and that their fanbase still takes seriously. They've ruined Hell in the Cell, to the point where it means nothing on PPV now. They've ruined Elimination Chamber, which also means pretty much nothing now. They're well on their way to ruining Money in the Bank, since something like sixteen to twenty different people will wrestle in two different Banks one after the other sometime in July. And now you're arguing reducing the Rumble to "winner gets a shot at some point during Wrestlemania" isn't even a little bit dumb?


    Originally posted by InVerse
    And I'm assuming you're referring to Edge vs del Rio going on first as something else that's making it superfluous?

I'm not. I defended that move in the WM reax thread, since MITB has been opening recent Manias and they needed a match perceived as big and unmissable to open the show again. But that only made sense because it was the first year without MITB.


    Originally posted by InVerse
    If so, that's retarded.

Was this necessary? Your point of view was crystal clear without it.


    Originally posted by InVerse
    Nobody enters the Rumble hoping to go on last at Wrestlemania. They enter the Rumble hoping to get a title match. Nobody competing for a world title is going to give a shit where that shot is on the card.

"Wrestles the Champion in the main event of Wrestlemania" has been a part of the Rumble hype since forever (or 1993). If it's just about a title match, the Rumble is sure a lot of work for something you could easily accomplish during the year by winning a random triple threat match. For Mania 28, you're gonna battle 29 (or perhaps 39) other men for the right to be forgotten on the Rock/Cena undercard. If you're a glory hungry ring gladiator, you want the last image people see on the biggest show of the year to be you proclaimed Champion. Going on half-way through is having your Superbowl turned into the Rose Bowl (with the REAL Superbowl going on later).


    Originally posted by InVerse
    And as for the next year of programming being a non-starter... First of all, John Cena rarely accounts for more than a quarter of the programming on a good (for him) night. Secondly, what the fuck does this even mean? If CM Punk attacks John Cena in July, nobody is going to give a shit about that feud because Cena is going to wrestle The Rock nine months later?

The biggest thing you can possibly see in wrestling is a year away. This would be less of a concern if the product was good, but it isn't. I must be missing the ten obvious mega-feuds Cena has simmering in the next eight to ten months that they haven't already done ten times. CM Punk could have been that feud, actually, but they already gave that away on free TV if you remember.



(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 6.4.11 2123)


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Same thing here. My real name is "Canadian" Bill Dog. Re: the Nash interview, was just having some fun. Hell, I agreed with him on some of his points (just not the ones that I posted).
- CANADIAN BULLDOG, Nash Creates Some New Fans (2004)
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