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26.10.14 0400
The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #925 2/14/11 (Page 5)
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It's False
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Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#81 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.91
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    If Hunter's coming back and Rock's coming back and Austin is gonna be on TE, that's the three heavy hitters of the Attitude era, all on WWE programming within a few months.


That would leave one person missing.

Hey, isn't Mick Foley due for the Hall of Fame right about now?




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Tyler Durden
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Since: 22.2.04
From: Frankfurt, Germany

Since last post: 4 days
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#82 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
    I think that Cena has the ability to be a Rock/Austin level guy. Problem is that unlike those two, when Cena turned face, he got a gimmick makeover.



They tried "Stone Cold University" for a few weeks (around WM 14), which is kind of a "Chain Gang"-thing. And all of a sudden Stone Cold was friends with total goofs like Jim Ross or Earl Hebner, which didn't make sense at all (DTA, you know?). So, they watered his gimmick down a lot as well, in my opinion. It wasn't a complete makeover, of course. But Cena didn't get a complete makeover as well. They just dropped the rapper thing.
dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#83 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Tyler Durden
      Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
      I think that Cena has the ability to be a Rock/Austin level guy. Problem is that unlike those two, when Cena turned face, he got a gimmick makeover.



    They tried "Stone Cold University" for a few weeks (around WM 14), which is kind of a "Chain Gang"-thing. And all of a sudden Stone Cold was friends with total goofs like Jim Ross or Earl Hebner, which didn't make sense at all (DTA, you know?). So, they watered his gimmick down a lot as well, in my opinion. It wasn't a complete makeover, of course. But Cena didn't get a complete makeover as well. They just dropped the rapper thing.


His friendship was Hebner was annoying because well..I think Hebner is annoying.
But at least with Jim Ross we learned that it really was friendship and that kinda developed naturally.

Austin never had to come out and go "Session's in, My Stone Cold Students!" like Cena does (or is asked to do)




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Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

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#84 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
The Chain Gang shit - which they seem mostly to have dropped, thank God - mostly reminded me of the Shawn Michaels "he's drawing from the power of the thousands of Kliq members worldwide!" stuff they tried to get over when they had no idea how to push him as a babyface in the summer of '96.

Cena would, no question, be as well-regarded a star as Rock, Austin, Foley and HHH had he broken through in '98/'99. He's got all the skills and he would've killed on the mic in the bad-taste Attitude era.
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#85 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.75
To go from face to heel, you need to make a change. If you don't then it becomes awkward. I think Austin turning face started with asking the fans their opinions and their answers being in the form of "Hell, Yeah." It also doesn't have to be interacting with the fans either, Rock had Foley's friendship to make him look less like an asshole. Rock was still a dick to Mick, but he did rescue him a few times mainly at RR 2000 and got Mick his job back a few weeks before. Rock was over when they started Rock N Sock, but he became a hero when the two of them took on McMahon-Helmsley. I also agree that a good heel like Vince or Flair or HHH circa 2000 will help make faces, but too strong of a heel like HHH from 2003 to 2005 will kill a show. WWE has not found the right balance since Eddie.

One of the problems for Cena when he started was taking him out of the comforts of Smackdown and shoving him on Raw. If he had stayed on Smackdown and they moved people over to him like Christian or Jericho, it would have worked better. Him standing around with Batista holding the belt next to him was really weird. I think he became the house guest no one wanted until he cemented himself with the kiddie population. It also didn't help they had him retire Jericho then threw him into a feud with Kurt then get verbally buried by Hunter leading into Mania.
.
Even with the rapping gimmick in place, I don't think it would have helped him with booking decisions that seemed at times to make a heel. The Superman booking didn't help either if he lost to Kurt or Jericho during the fall then I think people would have eased up on him. Yet, him running through the Raw roster and only losing the title for two weeks didn't him no favors in his first year. I still think to some fans, he is damaged goods or not their champion. Kids love him though and he sell merchandise which probably has more to do with how cool some of his shirts are.
GRL
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Since: 13.7.02
From: Austin

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#86 Posted on
For me Cena's ability to achieve any sort of legendary status is all going to come down to whether or not they pull the trigger and turn him into the biggest heel in the WWE. Once they pull that off successfully, I think we'd see whether or not he's an all-time great depending on how soon after the fans decide to turn him face again.

Using that same line of thinking, there is one guy on the roster now that has a rising star right now that's going to be fun to watch. The guy like the Rock that the fans love too much as a heel they can't help but turn him face. And that guy, to me, is CM Punk right now.



"Maybe I'm getting off topic, but this thread already sucks, so I don't feel bad about it. " -LotusMegami


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Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

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#87 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
Disagree. CM Punk is, I think, more in the Edge mould - you turn him face and he suddenly becomes lame. He's not a "cool" heel to anyone but the IWC crowd.
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#88 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.75
Edge has been getting some decent pops of late now if this is due to how much everyone hates Vickie, I am not sure. Now, will that hold going into Mania if he faces Alberto, who knows, but for now he is doing pretty good. Punk could be a face, but really only a tweener. He has greatly improved when he got his first title and I can see him throwing around the pop culture references better then anyone. I also think, he has developed more on the mic.

The real problem is WWE doesn't have a strong heel that isn't a woman. Vickie sadly is their best heel for the amount of heat she gets. Nexus has turned into the NWO with more branches then PNC Bank. Miz is a chickenshit heel that only now are they starting to get him some good wins, but that could all change this Sunday. Punk is a great heel, yet he seems less interested in the title then anyone else. Wade is not doing much on Smackdown. Alberto is coming into his own, but he is just one guy. They need a threat like Nexus was supposed to be. Yet, they didn't do anything meaningful. Wade was never champ, Cena's firing was reversed a month later and Punk pulled a coup on them. In the scheme of things they are just a blip on the radar.

WWE needs to build a strong threat. A threat so powerful, it calls for heroic efforts. Probably now more then ever, they need to turn Cena. They also need to have only one belt, so whoever the champ can be seen as a real threat to everyone not one brand. Their best bet was having Cena turn heel and take over Nexus instead of Punk. That would have sent shockwaves through everything. Then you could build up Morrison, R-Truth and maybe turn a few guys face like Miz or Punk to take on this threat. People want to cheer for the underdog, there are no face underdogs left.

(edited by lotjx on 17.2.11 0852)
dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

Since last post: 13 hours
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#89 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by GRL

    Using that same line of thinking, there is one guy on the roster now that has a rising star right now that's going to be fun to watch. The guy like the Rock that the fans love too much as a heel they can't help but turn him face. And that guy, to me, is CM Punk right now.


The best thing about Punk is that he has no true redeeming factors as a heel. No catchphrases, no flashy cool moves, and he constantly reminds people that he is a jerk. He doesn't pop them like Orton somehow did just before he turned face. He makes people hate him, and I don't see the average fan suddenly fall in love with him.

    Originally posted by lotjx

    WWE needs to build a strong threat. A threat so powerful, it calls for heroic efforts.
    ...
    That would have sent shockwaves through everything. ... People want to cheer for the underdog, there are no face underdogs left.


I agree with you on the face underdogs part.
They need to make a heel that people will truely hate and besting them would be an uphill battle.

That's why initially the Nexus story was so good.
Hell, it was still good up until Cena joined (then they rushed through things) Wade might not have had the title but people reaaallly wanted to see him/them get their ass kicked.

Alberto is not going to be that threat.
More than CM Punk, I can see the people turning him face because of his amusing expressions and all that.
And a face will always play the "hahaha, you crazy mexican" card to make fun of him.




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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#90 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.33
    Originally posted by dMp
    Austin never had to come out and go "Session's in, My Stone Cold Students!" like Cena does (or is asked to do)



Oh god I wish he had.
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#91 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by dMp
      Austin never had to come out and go "Session's in, My Stone Cold Students!" like Cena does (or is asked to do)



    Oh god I wish he had.

In a better universe than this one JR is yelling about how Austin just hit someone with the School of Hard Knocks.



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CHAPLOW
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Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

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#92 Posted on
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
    And The Rock single handidly showed us the pathetic shell that the WWE has become in the past decade. Everyone has become so accustomed to mediocrity that they've started thinking guys like Shaemus, Miz and Ziggler are main event material.

    The Rock is so beyond everyone else in the charisma department that it was like watching a different show.


Really couldn't have said it better myself.

I would have liked to think that it was just nostalgia or that I wasnt familiar with the newer generation of wrestlers, but just seeing The Rock doing what he does out there proved how the quality of personalities/entertainment has fallen by leagues.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#93 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.47
    Originally posted by It's False
    Hey, isn't Mick Foley due for the Hall of Fame right about now?


If he comes back, I sincerely hope it's only for this purpose. He doesn't need to put over another young buck with some beatdown that's a)scary and b) never in doubt.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
GRL
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Since: 13.7.02
From: Austin

Since last post: 3 days
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#94 Posted on
    Originally posted by CHAPLOW
      Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
      And The Rock single handidly showed us the pathetic shell that the WWE has become in the past decade. Everyone has become so accustomed to mediocrity that they've started thinking guys like Shaemus, Miz and Ziggler are main event material.

      The Rock is so beyond everyone else in the charisma department that it was like watching a different show.


    Really couldn't have said it better myself.

    I would have liked to think that it was just nostalgia or that I wasnt familiar with the newer generation of wrestlers, but just seeing The Rock doing what he does out there proved how the quality of personalities/entertainment has fallen by leagues.


I do truly agree with this sentiment - in essence - but what I think keeps getting missed in this sort of look at it is that, honestly, Rock wasn't surrounded by that many people back during his time of much greater import than we have now.
Rikishi = Santino
Billy Gunn = Ziggler (obvious comparison of late, it seems)
Triple H in prime = combo of Orton/Edge
Stone Cold = Cena, in terms of merchandise at least

I know that'll spark anxiety in its comparison, so I guess my point is that the decks are stacked relatively equally. Rock is simply THAT much more charismatic than his peers, regardless of what era he's in. Credit to the Rock, not credit FROM the current roster.




"Maybe I'm getting off topic, but this thread already sucks, so I don't feel bad about it. " -LotusMegami


"The only way TV Gangrel could change is if Real Gangrel changed." -Filipino Elvis
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 16 days
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#95 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
Man, Ziggler is so much better than Billy Gunn he should sue everyone who keeps making these comparisons.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 6 hours
#96 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.47
    Originally posted by GRL
    Billy Gunn = Ziggler (obvious comparison of late, it seems)



And I can't understand it. They're both blonde, use the Fameasser, and so far haven't held a world title. Otherwise, no.

Ziggler has been killing it in matches for more than a year now, and his ring work has surpassed a very bad gimmick, name, and booking. Gunn was the opposite; he had a number of decent gimmicks and significant chances to prove himself which he seemed to blow (the Kiss My Ass Match, the Survivor Series return). Ziggler seems to have moved up the ladder solely because of his work ethic, and I enjoy watching him, even in extended feuds.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

Since last post: 13 hours
Last activity: 45 min.
#97 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by GRL
      Billy Gunn = Ziggler (obvious comparison of late, it seems)



    And I can't understand it. They're both blonde, use the Fameasser, and so far haven't held a world title. Otherwise, no.

    Ziggler has been killing it in matches for more than a year now, and his ring work has surpassed a very bad gimmick, name, and booking. Gunn was the opposite; he had a number of decent gimmicks and significant chances to prove himself which he seemed to blow (the Kiss My Ass Match, the Survivor Series return). Ziggler seems to have moved up the ladder solely because of his work ethic, and I enjoy watching him, even in extended feuds.


Detailed comparisons aside, GRL is right.
The Rock's supporting cast wasn't that much better as far as charismatic gods goes.

For every Foley there was a Headbanger.
For every Christian there is a DH Smith.
They might be decent enough but don't set any worlds on fire.

The one difference is that back then, the writers were better/had somehow hit upon a working formula for the entire product.




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