Originally posted by TheBucsFan That's a bullshit argument. I certainly hope you've never criticized the execution of a move ever. I certainly hope you've never criticized the performance of an actor in a big-budget film. I certainly hope you've never criticized anyone ever who is doing something you haven't mastered yourself.
More and more on WWE TV it seems like there are moves that are impossible to believe are real - and if you aren't suspending disbelief, if you're thinking the whole time, "this is all fake and pointless," then what's the point? There are at least three or four times a week when I find myself thinking, "they really expect me to pretend this is real?" Usually it's because of totally blown moves or kicks that cameras clearly show were a foot away from the intended victim, but every once in a while there's a move like this that just has no purpose.*
What was impressive about the move? Orton didn't touch him until he was already on the mat, so it couldn't have been the RKO part ... but all that leaves is the same move we've seen Bourne do a million times. If what you mean is you want me to teach them how to go touch a guy's head after he's bellyflopped from the turnbuckle to the mat, though, I can absolutely do that.
* - if you're wondering why I still watch, it's because I'm curious to see where the NXT angle is going, and if it ties into whoever they choose as GM. It's the most compelling storyline they've had since Jeff Hardy vs. CM Punk, in my opinion.
(edited by TheBucsFan on 13.7.10 1106)
I am fully capable of watching a TV show knowing it's not real and enjoying it.
But are you capable of reading? I'm pretty sure I used the phrase "suspending disbelief" there. I'm pretty sure I used the word realism too.
Oh shit I didn't realize who I was responding to.
Jeez, don't you think you're laying it on a little thick? It's obvious everyone just disagrees with you on this, bro. I have never been an Orton fan, in fact I've been a vocal hater for years, but even I can't bring myself to say that that move looked "terrible". Did it look perfect? No, but you're making it sound like it was an obvious hideous botch.
I, like you, don't like my wrestling so ridiculously contrived as to be completely impossible to care about or invest in emotionally, but as those moments go, your average fifty closed fist punches in a wrestling match with no bruises and/or irish whip probably stretches the bounds of disbelief suspension far more than this one move did.
Good old-style wrestling like you seem to want is dead. It's all overly choreographed, there's no more calling spots on the fly, there are no more spontaneous promos where the guy has bullet points and is told GO. (WELCOME TO OBAMA'S AMERICA lolz!!) I miss it and I think the current way blows, but it's this or TNA, and TNA makes me feel like getting a prostate exam from a stingray.
Originally posted by Hogan's My DadI, like you, don't like my wrestling so ridiculously contrived as to be completely impossible to care about or invest in emotionally, but as those moments go, your average fifty closed fist punches in a wrestling match with no bruises and/or irish whip probably stretches the bounds of disbelief suspension far more than this one move did.
I don't know ... it's ultimately going to come down to personal tastes, but for me, those punches and kicks and such are things I'm willing to accept as not stretching my disbelief too far. Just like I know Steve Carrel doesn't really manage a paper company in Pennsylvania, I know that the wrestlers aren't really punching each other. I can accept it, as long as it looks somewhat convincing. Good acting - and acting is exactly what pro wrestlers are doing - makes you forget that what you're watching isn't real. Bad acting reminds you that it's fake.
That RKO wasn't good - it reminded me immediately that what I was watching was fake - and there was nothing they could do to make it look good. That whole thing amounted to Evan Bourne doing a flip in the air and that's it - and I've seen him do that before. I would have preferred that they not show the camera angle in which you could clearly see Bourne's legs and perhaps his stomach on the mat before Orton even touched him. It would be like, I don't know, Steve Carrel reading from a script on camera, or yawning during a take and leaving it in the final cut or something. I know RAW is live, which makes it harder on them, but that's all the more reason not to go out there trying moves that have no way of looking the way you want them to. I just don't see any way possible that Randy Orton could have gotten into position to deliver the RKO in time.
The thing I immediately thought of when I saw that RKO last night was Rikishi falling off the cell into a truck bed lined with hay at Armageddon in 2001. The idea of a huge dude like Rikishi plummeting off that cell a la Mick Foley is a great image, but they (understandably) couldn't find a way to do it that was both safe and looked good. I would prefer that this means they not do it, but WWE instead just does it in a way that takes away from the moment.
And it's not just this one move - if it was, it wouldn't have bothered me. It's a trend - again, if they can't pull off the move in a way that looks real, I would just prefer that they not do it. Most of the punches I see from WWE wrestlers look pretty real, even if I know they aren't. When I see something that "shows light," if I'm using that term correctly, it just distracts me from the show.
I see wrestlers intentionally getting into position to have move preformed on them way more today than I ever remember in the past. I don't know if I'm getting more attentive of the wrestlers are getting worse or (my theory) the camera work isn't as good, but virtually every match has at least one move where it is apparent the attacker wasn't within a foot of touching the victim.
WWE can't seem to make up its mind just how much it wants to be "drama" over "athleticism." If it's the former, they're going to have to come up with things much better than Santino wanting to kiss Mrs. Brady. If it's the latter, then I'd like to see more realism in the ring. As it is, they don't really go all out in either and end up being mediocre at both (in my opinion). If I like two girls, and spend half my time with both of them, I can't combine them and say I have one girlfriend - I really just have two girls that probably aren't any more committed to me than I am to them. Same with WWE - they need to pick which they are and become better at it, the Nexus angle notwithstanding. It seems like they have one good month- or two-month-long angle a year and that's it.
Good old-style wrestling like you seem to want is dead.
To be clear, I do not want to go back to the 1970s. I enjoy high flying moves and such and like a lot of the crazy spots we see in gimmicked matches. I like watching athletes be athletic, just in ways that I can believe it actually is happening.
Your thoughts, please, on the following moves: The W-O-R-M karate chop The People's Elbow elbowdrop The You Can't See Me Five Knuckle Shuffle fistdrop The Ballin' elbowdrop The 619 swingout double kick And the list goes on and on of moves where people have to end up in unlikely places for extended periods of time - hell, even the shooting star press occasionally qualifies...
Originally posted by The BucsFanI see wrestlers intentionally getting into position to have move preformed on them way more today than I ever remember in the past. I don't know if I'm getting more attentive of the wrestlers are getting worse or (my theory) the camera work isn't as good, but virtually every match has at least one move where it is apparent the attacker wasn't within a foot of touching the victim.
All of the above. "WWE style," lack of seasoning around the world and/or in the indies, emphasis on body type over wrestling ability, the same songs you've heard sung for YEARS. And "WWEHD"
And the most important: Yep, you're seeing it better but that also means you're older - and way out of the current WWE target demographic of 2-17, who get a big kick out of John (Cena|Morrison) saying "butt" and using phrases which are alliteratively close to swearing, but aren't. And unfortunately, it looks like there is no light at the end of THAT tunnel for quite a while. So all that's left is to give up on the current product and switch to the DVDs and "Classics" channel.
Originally posted by TheBucsFanI'm going to wait and see who is behind the Nexus deal before I quit watching for the second time this year.
There's nobody behind it. They've already made that abundantly clear. Wade Barrett is the de facto leader because, well, he's the obvious candidate regardless of winning NXT.
Also, I wonder how sad David Otunga is that he had to give up his $300/week hair cuts due to the probable fact that it probably wouldn't get him in good with the locker room if he brought his personal barber with him on the road.
Then again, Miz was dismayed at having to pay less than $50 for a haircut awhile back, so what do I know? $50 worth of haircuts would last me about a year and a half.
Originally posted by CRZYour thoughts, please, on the following moves: The W-O-R-M karate chop The People's Elbow elbowdrop The You Can't See Me Five Knuckle Shuffle fistdrop The Ballin' elbowdrop The 619 swingout double kick And the list goes on and on of moves where people have to end up in unlikely places for extended periods of time - hell, even the shooting star press occasionally qualifies...
Funny, I thought about posting a "moves that are impossible to believe are real"-list earlier as well and I came up with the exact same moves you are mentioning. Not all of them, but you get what I mean.
The point is that WWE (or Orton and Bourne for that matter) simply tried to - god forbid - entertain us and give us something new and spectacular and all the IWC (or at least the W) can do is bitch about it not looking real. Come on. If you're problem is that wrestling is or certain moves look fake, then you're really watching the wrong programme! You sound like a bored girlfriend having to sit trough a wrestling show on TV, I'm sorry! ("You see? He didn't even touch him. That's so fake!")
By the way, other moves that really look fake and always remind you that what you're watching isn't real: Mick Foley's (or Ric Flair's or Bret Hart's) so called "punches"! ;)
One more thing: If I watch a movie like "Die hard 4.0" I sometimes really get pissed of, if Bruce Willis does things, that just aren't possible and don't even look possible, because you can see it's all just computer animated. But, on the other hand, if I watch an X-Men movie and Magneto bends the Golden Gate Bridge with his mind, I don't even think about things like realism, because I know it's a movie about superheros and their powers. WWE to me is closer to watching a movie about superheros than a movie about a cop or FBI agent or anything like that. That's why I don't care about realism like I would, if I watched something different. I sometimes just enjoy what's being offered to me.
Originally posted by John Orquiola< Oh Lord, I hated that promo. Sugary babyface John Morrison is just... ugh. And now he and Cena have the same joke writers. Kings of comedy, those two.
Morrison, to me, is something of a dilemma. On the one hand, his babyface promos do, indeed, reek of desperation and pandering. They're rarely funny and I seem to recall his promos alongside the Miz being much better (although maybe my memory's faulty and Miz carried the load there). On the other hand, Morrison's wrestling style and flashy moves are far more suited to him being a babyface. The Flying Chuck, the Standing Shooting Star, and Starship Pain are pretty much always going to get pops simply because they look awesome (although your mileage may vary). He also sells pretty well and can draw heat from taking a beatdown. I'm a big fan of the guy in the ring, but completely understand that his mic skills are holding him back from the next level. Maybe he should try a more serious babyface persona, a la Bret Hart or Ricky Steamboat, instead of the babyface Jericho/Edge/Cena jokey sarcasm he's attempting now? Maybe he needs someone to coach him?
"Never piss off a hawk with a blowgun" - Conan O'Brien
I know we've had the Immortal Hulk Hogan, but has it ever occured to anyone that Doink the Clown is immortal? Since it is a guy in makeup and costume, we could potentially see a Doink match fifty years from now? (shudders)
I'll take any rumor about JR being removed with a grain of salt. Also, wasn't Vince and Taker at Brock's first few fights? As for not punishing the other three it kinda makes some sense, they seem to want Austin back in some form for something at least once a year, there always a Rock rumor at least every third month that he is coming back and Goldberg is more then likely one of the big if not the big star for the WCW HOF this year in Atlanta. I do think out of the four Bill is the easiest to punish since they can easily take that spot away from him and give that money to Flair who seems to be burning through his TNA dates while still doing a decent job for the company. JR did sign a contract with WWE recently that no makes no sense to punish him. It might be a swerve though that Cole is the GM and didn't want people to remember JR thus that is why he is cut. Who knows either way, its stupid.
The X Division is (or was) one of the principle things that separated TNA from WWE. Good wrestling, smaller guys, long matches. Now it's a punchline for an over-the-hill wrestler. The whole "it's funny, so who cares?