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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #831 4/27/09 (Page 2)
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oldschoolhero
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Since: 2.1.02
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
I'm confused. You WANT MVP to be in Shane's place, to job to Orton next week?
Again, I state: MVP and Shane are two separate issues. Bitching about Shane is all well and good, but he's not stealing "a spot" from MVP. He's not going to go on and win the WWE title, or probably even appear on PPV again in the near future. Christ, if anything it would be bad continuity if Shane, who was clearly still healthy at Backlash's end, vanished without a trace. You guys are acting like he beat up Orton AND MVP.




"And here...we...go."
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.23
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Bitching about Shane is all well and good, but he's not stealing "a spot" from MVP.


No, but his presence there mitigated whatever "spot" MVP was supposed to be filling. The Brooklyn Brawler could have filled the same role with the same significance, if not the same skill.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Last post for a while so as to avoid pissing off the boss, but saying that the Brooklyn Brawler could have interrupted the champ then got the better of him for ten minutes is patently absurd. Look, if MVP's work last night is forgotten come next week, if this doesn't play into his moving up the card, then I'll happily eat crow on this. But how's about we actually wait and see on that before comparing him to the fucking Brooklyn Brawler?



"And here...we...go."
spf
Scrapple








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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    I'm confused. You WANT MVP to be in Shane's place, to job to Orton next week?
    Again, I state: MVP and Shane are two separate issues. Bitching about Shane is all well and good, but he's not stealing "a spot" from MVP. He's not going to go on and win the WWE title, or probably even appear on PPV again in the near future. Christ, if anything it would be bad continuity if Shane, who was clearly still healthy at Backlash's end, vanished without a trace. You guys are acting like he beat up Orton AND MVP.


I fail to see how it would be lack of continuity if, after the beatings taken by his father and sister and brother-in-law Shane was said to be with the family right now.

The problem with the McMahon family involvement, for me anyhow, was that it pretty much guarantees that MVP's involvement is one of those things designed just to give Orton something to do in between PPV's, and keep Legacy busy for a while. Next week is Orton/Shane. The week after that will be the buildup to Orton/Batista. After the PPV, the clock begins ticking on when HHH comes back to claim vengeance on behalf of the McMahon family.

I mean, I guess it was nice for MVP to get to interrupt a promo by Orton, but it seems more likely to end up like when Bubba Ray Dudley challenged HHH than anything substantial, while the same couple feuds that have been going on and on keep going on and on.



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John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Last post for a while so as to avoid pissing off the boss, but saying that the Brooklyn Brawler could have interrupted the champ then got the better of him for ten minutes is patently absurd. Look, if MVP's work last night is forgotten come next week, if this doesn't play into his moving up the card, then I'll happily eat crow on this. But how's about we actually wait and see on that before comparing him to the fucking Brooklyn Brawler?


Agreed. Although need I remind that according to Todd Grisham, the Brooklyn Brawler is a WWE legend the equal of if not superior to "ECW legend" Tommy Dreamer.

(edited by John Orquiola on 28.4.09 1024)
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.23
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Last post for a while so as to avoid pissing off the boss, but saying that the Brooklyn Brawler could have interrupted the champ then got the better of him for ten minutes is patently absurd.


Man, it sure is a good thing I didn't say that!

Is it patently absurd to say the Brooklyn Brawler could be in the middle of a match, only to be completely forgotten (along with the outcome of said match) when someone completely unrelated to him comes out to interfere and overshadow him? Because I'm pretty sure that's the claim I made. The point is, it could have been ANYONE in the ring with Orton when Shane came in, because the only reason that segment existed was to give Shane something to interrupt. They didn't remember he was there five seconds after the match ended, so I don't know how you can be so optimistic they'll all of a sudden re-remember it a week or more later.

Of course you're right that it's hopefully a sign of better things for MVP. But that's not saying much, and it's a retarded way for the company to get it started.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 29.4.09 0027)
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.32
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Of course you're right that it's hopefully a sign of better things for MVP. But that's not saying much, and it's a retarded way for the company to get it started.


I think it's saying a lot. I hated the finish and I hate Shane, but verbally punking the world champion and then having a long competitive match with him is skipping ahead quite a few levels in create-a-player story mode from where the guy had been at. If I was a big MVP fan I'd be more happy than annoyed.
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.87
For all the talk of the super-boring main event, I found the opening segment to be unbearable. It took Randy and the Oatmeal Twins like seven minutes just to get into the ring and start talking. And the reward for all that waiting was Randy on the mic. Which is like running through an obstacle course, dodging bullets, and leaping an electrified fence only to be bashed in the sack with a baseball from one of those machines they have at batting cages.

I guess beyond the talent being stale is the issue of the format of all WWE shows being stale. We still have the obligatory opening segment featuring top talent, with heel authority figure making matches arbitrarily. It's the same format from 1998. That's eleven years of the same shit, and they've done every conceivable variation on that that they can. We've seen feuding GMs, talent raids, firings, hirings, and returns from Vince. We've seen GM-for-a-week gimmicks, we've seen chaos-due-to-no-GM gimmicks. Enough already. It's just a hot mess and it needs to go.



Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
CRZ
Big Brother
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.51
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    It's just a hot mess and it needs to go.
Okay. So what do you replace it with? The ROH TV format?



spf
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      It's just a hot mess and it needs to go.
    Okay. So what do you replace it with? The ROH TV format?

They succeeded in having a mostly off-camera authority figure for many years. Decisions would often be "made" by the Commissioner who was a mostly non-partisan figure, and for very important moments he would actually appear.

I guess the problem with that would be that since the WWE is in a weird sort of closed universe where apparently everyone just arrives at an arena once a week and proceeds to live out storylines therein, rather than being athletes arriving for a planned sporting event, you need someone there as the focal point for the chaos. When the matches are just setups for the angles advanced in the backstage promos, rather than having some intrinsic meaning, it is hard to just list off that the Commissioner has approved contracts for these matches for the evening.

But then this is the sort of thing that gets us back into the Jim Cornette thread.



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
Hokienautic
Liverwurst








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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.67
    Originally posted by blackdragon

    Miz did a good job with his promo time, but the cynic in me just knows it's a set up for Cena to squash him in two minutes the week before Judgement Day.



I dunno. I thought much the same when a young idiot punk challenged Brock Lesnar way back when, but John Cena seems to be doing alrighty nowadays. So it's hard to tell where this might go, to be honest. It could be a start of something big. Or, he entire reason for the segment could have been just to reinforce the "Dave's not here, man" point they were trying to make with Cena.

That said, I fully agree with redsoxnation that The Miz should demand an apology from the announcers since Cena was obviously in the building and didn't come out. If nothing else he should reference it himself that he called him out and Cena no-showed.
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.87
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      It's just a hot mess and it needs to go.
    Okay. So what do you replace it with? The ROH TV format?


Well, I am unfamiliar with the ROH TV format. How do they do it?

What I mean, generally, is as SPF mentioned, having the authority figures come out for big moments ala Jack Tunney. Even apart from the GM point, wrestlers coming out to do the weekly interview segments has been old hat for years. Only you can't even call them interview segments anymore, because no one actually conducts the interviews. They're monologues. It's just unnatural; you rarely even see monologues in movies, and when done, they're done mostly in conversation. At least have someone out there to ask the questions; a conversation is (almost) always more entertaining than a monologue, and "How do you feel about such-and-such" works better than "people have been asking me how I feel about such-and-such and here's how" any day of the week.

To summarize, even good talent, if plugged into a stale formula, will come off flat. It's not like we've got a bunch of Rocks and Austins here, so the last thing WWE needs to be doing is putting the talent behind the 8-ball to begin with.



Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.64
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Of course you're right that it's hopefully a sign of better things for MVP. But that's not saying much, and it's a retarded way for the company to get it started.


    I think it's saying a lot. I hated the finish and I hate Shane, but verbally punking the world champion and then having a long competitive match with him is skipping ahead quite a few levels in create-a-player story mode from where the guy had been at. If I was a big MVP fan I'd be more happy than annoyed.

You are right, it would seem out of nowhere for MVP to suddenly be a main event guy. And why? Because they did their best to bury the guy in 2008 after he was maybe THE breakout star of 2007 with his feud against Matt Hardy. That ads a whole new level of frustration to the situation for me. A year ago he was a hot heel, ready for a semi main event spot, and WWE decided a losing streak and sympathy face turn was a better idea. The face turn is sort of over (that promo helped) but he is still not even on the level of Shane, a non wrestler.




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.32
I think one of the worst things about WWE since about 2005 has been, with the combo of the draft lottery and most of the Vince stuff besides his feud with Trump, is that all the wrestlers have lost any sense of self-efficacy and are just random playthings who get sent to different shows.

But I think that's just lazy writing, it has nothing to do with the concept of the GM. Heel matchmakers is really just an evolution from the lead heel managers. Bobby Heenan never booked Hogan in handicap matches against Rick Rude and Mr. Perfect, but the concept of the guy sending threat after threat trying to get the title off the star babyface is archetypal wrestling.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 28.4.09 1820)
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    I think one of the worst things about WWE since about 2005 has been the combo of the draft lottery and most of the Vince stuff besides his feud with Trump is that all the wrestlers have lost any sense of self-efficacy and are just random playthings who get sent to different shows.

    But I think that's just lazy writing, it has nothing to do with the concept of the GM. Heel matchmakers is really just an evolution from the lead heel managers Bobby Heenan never booked Hogan in handicap matches against Rick Rude and Mr. Perfect, but the concept of the guy sending threat after threat trying to get the title off the star babyface is archetypal wrestling.

    (edited by JustinShapiro on 28.4.09 1647)

But the GM concept has ballooned far beyond that concept. Yes, the original idea of Mr. McMahon and Eric Bischoff being on-screen evil bosses can be seen as the ultimate evolution of the concept. But for how long has Teddy Long existed now as some sort of GM character? Or Commissioner Foley? Or Commissioner HBK? Or whenever a McMahon is in charge and having one of their face runs?

The lack of self-efficacy however I would say is in fact a major reason why the GM has to be there in this current structure. There is really no sense of logical progression due to the matches happening in the ring. All storyline progression occurs through interaction with that authority figure except for the initial incident that begins an angle.

Here is where the lazy writing comes to the fore. They don't really have any means to progress angles beyond what evil or what commupance the GM is going to dole out. If you're on Raw and you're a heel, you wait for Vickie to give you an opportunity to somehow unfairly beat the face you dislike. If you're a face on Smackdown, you ask Teddy Long to give you a shot at a fair fight. If you're not important enough to have an issue requiring their attention, then you might just get to wander out for a match that has no intrinsic meaning, since title matches generally occur based on previous grudges or through the blessing of the on-screen GM.

So I guess my point is that I agree and disagree all at once. I guess it could be worse. Someone could try and explain what the supposed power structure of TNA is :)



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.23
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Of course you're right that it's hopefully a sign of better things for MVP. But that's not saying much, and it's a retarded way for the company to get it started.


    I think it's saying a lot. I hated the finish and I hate Shane, but verbally punking the world champion and then having a long competitive match with him is skipping ahead quite a few levels in create-a-player story mode from where the guy had been at. If I was a big MVP fan I'd be more happy than annoyed.


"That's not saying much" meant there are a lot of things that would have been a huge improvement for MVP, and 99.99999999 percent of them don't end in wasting it with another useless Shane McMahon run-in. If they wanted to up his stature, there are a lot of ways they could have done it that to them apparently were less appealing than having MVP completely disappear after Shane McMahon interjected himself in MVP's match and denied MVP a conclusion to his one-on-one match with the champ.

How many times has this company teased pushing someone by making them tangentially related to the big boys? And how many times has it worked? I don't see how you can watch that segment and come away thinking "man, they sure are serious about pushing MVP." He was an afterthought. It wasn't MVP they were talking about at the end of the segment.

Another issue, not MVP-related" If we are thinking in kayfabe terms, shouldn't somebody be pissed at Shane McMahon, a very high-ranking official in the company and son of the owners, running in and prematurely ending matches on his company's shows?

(edited by TheBucsFan on 29.4.09 0952)
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.32
The push is half-full. The push is half-empty. They could've had Orton pin him. They could've had MVP and Shane run them off together. Shane will get killed by Orton next week and go away. Shane will get a lot of shit offense in as if they were equals. We sit here, Janus-faced.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 28.4.09 2359)
SKLOKAZOID
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#38 Posted on
Maybe they should evolve beyond the current GM concept into having filmed (with actual film) Mad Men style drama segments backstage as we see the McMahons having to compete with big Wall Street investor types for control of the company. There'd be sex, scandal, and intrigue as we see the inner-workings of an actual wrestling company.

The Wall Street types would try to create new gimmicks with advertisers influencing their ideas (so you'd get "Mountain Dew Jones" as a hot new prospect), they'd try to force the McMahons out of business, and everything backstage would influence what happens live.

The live crowd would watch events unfold on the TitanTron in between matches and commercials. Or, this would be an hour-long drama played in concert with the other shows during the week, probably Sunday nights on SyFy.


I'm only half-kidding, and it's a horrible idea, but we've been doing this GM/evil owner thing for over 10 years and it hasn't been exciting for at least 5. Of course, I only speak for myself personally, but I need something new.

Or we need more wrestlers with magic powers. Or guns.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 29.4.09 1221)
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID


    The Wall Street types would try to create new gimmicks with advertisers influencing their ideas (so you'd get "Mountain Dew Jones" as a hot new prospect), they'd try to force the McMahons out of business, and everything backstage would influence what happens live.


Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Vs. Not Sure, it could work, again.

    Originally posted by spf
    I guess the problem with that would be that since the WWE is in a weird sort of closed universe where apparently everyone just arrives at an arena once a week and proceeds to live out storylines therein, rather than being athletes arriving for a planned sporting event, you need someone there as the focal point for the chaos. When the matches are just setups for the angles advanced in the backstage promos, rather than having some intrinsic meaning, it is hard to just list off that the Commissioner has approved contracts for these matches for the evening.


I guess that had been my problem with the WWE that drove me away from them for years. Their Sports and Entertainment have been out of equilibrium for a while, with too much focus on the Entertainment and less Sports. I hope it is starting to swing back in the other direction.



-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

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