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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #814 12/29/08 (Page 2)
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Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.40
For the first time in a while, I'm more interested in the plotlines than the wrestling. Legacy's progress, Kelly/Orton, Beth's fan, Rey/Knox, HBK/JBL, Punk/Regal ... this is good stuff.

Manu/Hardy doesn't help either guy. Hardy beat a guy who's had maybe five singles matches on RAW. Manu lost to a world champ (nice moonsault though). No one's elevated, and the loser is the focus of the match's intrigue. Knox/Manu may have been a better test. Or Manu/Goldust. The winner gets into Legacy and hangs with Orton.

Cena's talk with Stephanie (where he mocked the backstage-skit template while deriding guest commentary) only proves that he needs to go heel. That's tweener behavior at best, and he should do it more often. But that clashes with his "respect" credo. Still, it was entertaining to see how far he'd push it.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 13 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    Cena's talk with Stephanie (where he mocked the backstage-skit template while deriding guest commentary) only proves that he needs to go heel. That's tweener behavior at best, and he should do it more often. But that clashes with his "respect" credo. Still, it was entertaining to see how far he'd push it.


For your own good, don't stir up that hornet's nest, Matt. Every time I ever say turn him heel, I am bombarded with responses of "He sells merch" and "the kids love him!" ; )

Did any of Cena's fanbase even get his Harry Caray impression? It was quite good, but he died before most of them were born. With the new PG rating making Cena even more watered down, and his undeserved title shot against Jericho upon his return, he is a heel to me now more than ever.




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.40
    Originally posted by kentish
    For your own good, don't stir up that hornet's nest, Matt. Every time I ever say turn him heel, I am bombarded with responses of "He sells merch" and "the kids love him!" ; )


I heard that when I suggested the many RAW video tributes leading to his return at Survivor Series were leading to a heel turn. And I'm not suggesting he needs to, but ... I see the crowd just aching to chant for Orton (and doing so when he fought JBL this week), and I wonder about the benefits of Cena providing a double-turn. I think he'd make a fine heel again. But it doesn't have to happen yet.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 13 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by kentish
      For your own good, don't stir up that hornet's nest, Matt. Every time I ever say turn him heel, I am bombarded with responses of "He sells merch" and "the kids love him!" ; )


    I heard that when I suggested the many RAW video tributes leading to his return at Survivor Series were leading to a heel turn. And I'm not suggesting he needs to, but ... I see the crowd just aching to chant for Orton (and doing so when he fought JBL this week), and I wonder about the benefits of Cena providing a double-turn. I think he'd make a fine heel again. But it doesn't have to happen yet.

I can see Orton as a face now much better than in 2004. He has really polished his act the last few years. Between you and me, I would love to see a Cena heel turn just to freshen him up. He is still stale when he returns from injuries, because the tough bastard only needs 2-3 months off when he gets hurt!




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
Oliver
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Since: 20.6.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.35
    Originally posted by kentish
      Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Cena's talk with Stephanie (where he mocked the backstage-skit template while deriding guest commentary) only proves that he needs to go heel. That's tweener behavior at best, and he should do it more often. But that clashes with his "respect" credo. Still, it was entertaining to see how far he'd push it.


    For your own good, don't stir up that hornet's nest, Matt. Every time I ever say turn him heel, I am bombarded with responses of "He sells merch" and "the kids love him!" ; )

Even heel factions sell merch. I can't remember how many nWo shirts I've bought over the years. Some of the latest WWE tee designs are pretty swank, even if they're for heels like Edge.

I think Orton shines as a face; I also think Cena's better as a heel.




Unicow, unicow...he's a unicorn cow!
dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.05
I don't see any face-ish upsides to Orton.
He is so damn good at being a complete dick.

Cena ->heel can be done easily, the same way Jericho did it.
"I show you respect, and I get booed? Well then I don't want it."
It will break the hearts of many kids, but his heat would be awesome I bet.

Nothing really stands out in my mind from this Raw. Some decent matches but nothing that made me veer up.
I just hope Manu isn't out of the Legacy, that would be lame (after being part of starting it up really)





Avatar Mud
used2bcool
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Since: 5.11.08
From: Lake Forest, IL

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.89
I've my doubts about face Orton, mainly due to the debacle of 2004. Heel Cena will work if he goes back to ripping on people and rapping.

I think Manu will find a way back into the Legacy. Leaving him out would just leave him floundering with nothing to do. Maybe it's all a big setup for the next Legacy beatdown. Anyway, I'm not too sure about the Legacy anyway...I think it drags Orton down. There's no reason why he should be hanging with these midcarders. It doesn't help when Orton is head and shoulders above the group.





Forfeit the game, before somebody else takes you outta the game, and puts your name to shame
Cover up your face, you can't run the race
The pace is too fast, you just won't last
- "Points Of Authority" - Linkin Park
Spaceman Spiff
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Since: 2.1.02
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
So, if you turn Cena heel, who is Raw's top face?

-Orton? Unproven as a face right now, and really good at being a heel.

-Batista? Currently injured, pushing 40 years old, and has a history of injuries.

-Rey? He's great, but his body is starting to fall apart.

-HBK? Older, probably doesn't want the grind of being the top guy.

-Punk? He worked fine as champ, but he'll need some building up since he's been midcarding it of late. Plus, I don't think he's ready to be THE #1 GUY.

Remember that Austin heel turn? Really entertaining, and we got some great matches out of it. Problem was, it tanked business-wise. Cena turning heel isn't simply a matter of "won't somebody think of the t-shirt sales?" Cena brought in a TON of women & children, and by turning him heel you risk driving those people away.



spf
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Since: 2.1.02
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by Oliver
      Originally posted by kentish
        Originally posted by Matt Tracker
        Cena's talk with Stephanie (where he mocked the backstage-skit template while deriding guest commentary) only proves that he needs to go heel. That's tweener behavior at best, and he should do it more often. But that clashes with his "respect" credo. Still, it was entertaining to see how far he'd push it.


      For your own good, don't stir up that hornet's nest, Matt. Every time I ever say turn him heel, I am bombarded with responses of "He sells merch" and "the kids love him!" ; )

    Even heel factions sell merch. I can't remember how many nWo shirts I've bought over the years. Some of the latest WWE tee designs are pretty swank, even if they're for heels like Edge.

    I think Orton shines as a face; I also think Cena's better as a heel.


Heel factions sell merch to later teens and adults. Faces sell merch to kids. WWE just lowered all their ratings to PG, and really who over the age of 14 wants to be seen in a wrestling shirt these days? 8 year olds buy Cena merch. If he turns heel will 20 year old frat guys suddenly find him cool just because he starts rapping and making John Ritter jokes?

Cena is fine exactly where he is, as a face character who will often get booed by the crowd. Either way, he inspires more genuine reaction than anyone else in the company. And is one of the few people who actually draws money for them.



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by Oliver
        Originally posted by kentish
          Originally posted by Matt Tracker
          Cena's talk with Stephanie (where he mocked the backstage-skit template while deriding guest commentary) only proves that he needs to go heel. That's tweener behavior at best, and he should do it more often. But that clashes with his "respect" credo. Still, it was entertaining to see how far he'd push it.


        For your own good, don't stir up that hornet's nest, Matt. Every time I ever say turn him heel, I am bombarded with responses of "He sells merch" and "the kids love him!" ; )

      Even heel factions sell merch. I can't remember how many nWo shirts I've bought over the years. Some of the latest WWE tee designs are pretty swank, even if they're for heels like Edge.

      I think Orton shines as a face; I also think Cena's better as a heel.


    Heel factions sell merch to later teens and adults. Faces sell merch to kids. WWE just lowered all their ratings to PG, and really who over the age of 14 wants to be seen in a wrestling shirt these days? 8 year olds buy Cena merch. If he turns heel will 20 year old frat guys suddenly find him cool just because he starts rapping and making John Ritter jokes?

    Cena is fine exactly where he is, as a face character who will often get booed by the crowd. Either way, he inspires more genuine reaction than anyone else in the company. And is one of the few people who actually draws money for them.


See what I mean, Matt?




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.62
The trouble about a Cena heel turn is that if he goes back to rapping and being cruelly sarcastic (i.e. what got him over in the first place) then he'll suddenly get 'cool heel' cheers from the older fans similar to the ones that Orton is currently getting.

Orton wouldn't work as a face at all. He is completely perfect as a dickhead heel --- he's one of those people who should probably never turn.
djp
Morcilla








Since: 16.2.07
From: 3rd Floor, NW window

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.54
    Originally posted by kentish
      Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Cena's talk with Stephanie (where he mocked the backstage-skit template while deriding guest commentary) only proves that he needs to go heel. That's tweener behavior at best, and he should do it more often. But that clashes with his "respect" credo. Still, it was entertaining to see how far he'd push it.


    For your own good, don't stir up that hornet's nest, Matt. Every time I ever say turn him heel, I am bombarded with responses of "He sells merch" and "the kids love him!" ; )

    Did any of Cena's fanbase even get his Harry Caray impression? It was quite good, but he died before most of them were born. With the new PG rating making Cena even more watered down, and his undeserved title shot against Jericho upon his return, he is a heel to me now more than ever.


I didn't think it was good at all. Not everyone can do a Harry Caray impression, but anyone *can* do an impression of Will Ferrell doing a Harry Caray impression. That was way over the top and he had already gone too far at that point. He was dying up there. It's ok with me - turn him heel!
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.18
Cena deserved the title match against Jericho because he had a shot coming to him in the Scramble match that he missed. I mean seriously. Stephanie is well aware.
MUTigermask
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Since: 8.10.03
From: Columbia MO

Since last post: 293 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    Cena deserved the title match against Jericho because he had a shot coming to him in the Scramble match that he missed. I mean seriously. Stephanie is well aware.


Yeah, but it was Shane who made the match for SS. Without consulting Steph! The nerve!

I usually don't have a problem with SuperCena, I think because I wasn't watching from late 2004 to late 2007 so I missed his megapush in those days. That said, the backstage skit with Stephanie was painful for me to watch. The Rock could do shit like that and make it work, Cena not so much. Also, Rock never spraypainted that someone is "poopy" on their car.

Big Bad is right though, if he goes back to the rapping and ripping on people, it wouldn't turn him heel, that's what got him over as a face in the first place. And while I believe Orton should never turn face, I'll still root for him like one.

I guess if someone was announcing on the announcers they would say that Cole's performance was "vintage Michael Cole". And yes, the COILING VIPER stuff was overdone, as well as the CRUCIFIED stuff. They always feel as if they have to repeat themselves over and over to get things through the fans heads. Glad I wasn't the only one who heard Cole say Ziggler was undefeated on RAW.

Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.40
    Originally posted by MUTigermask
    Glad I wasn't the only one who heard Cole say Ziggler was undefeated on RAW.


It's a RAW memory disease. JR made the same claim about Snitsky when he had his last match against Cena.

But I do think Cole was the same guy who claimed during a Rikishi match that the steel steps weighed 300+ pounds.

I would pay to hear the audio feed from the backstage to the announcers.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Spaceman Spiff
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Since: 2.1.02
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
If/when Cena does turn heel, he shouldn't go back to the rapping gimmick solely for the fact that it would be a character regression. A heel turn should be as a result of a progression of his character, not reverting back (at least) half a decade.

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 2.1.09 1315)


JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.17
    Originally posted by MUTigermask
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Cena deserved the title match against Jericho because he had a shot coming to him in the Scramble match that he missed. I mean seriously. Stephanie is well aware.


    Yeah, but it was Shane who made the match for SS. Without consulting Steph! The nerve!


Err ... shit.

    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    If/when Cena does turn heel, he shouldn't go back to the rapping gimmick solely for the fact that it would be a character regression. A heel turn should be as a result of a progression of his character, not reverting back (at least) half a decade.


Agreed. That'd be like Steve Austin turning heel by growing his hair out and doing the "roll camera" taunt.

Hey, what's this in today's Observer.

    Originally posted by David A. Meltzer
    Cena’s merchandise numbers for 2008 were the best of anyone in company history except Austin during his peak years, and ahead of 80s Hogan marks. That’s the reason no thought is given to turning him heel at this point. If his merchandise were to stop selling and people booed him, then it would likely be considered, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one happening.
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Thanks for explaining why. Was the whole card good, or just the fights already mentioned? My girlfriend said she might tape it for me, but I told her not to worry about it. If it's as good as it sounds, I might have to change my mind.
- eviljonhunt81, PPV Of The Year (PRIDE Non-Spoiler) (2003)
Related threads: RAW #813 12/22/08 - RAW #812 12/15/08 - Snitsky released - More...
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