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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #812 12/15/08 (Page 2)
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Hokienautic
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Since: 2.1.02
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.65
    Originally posted by kentish
      Originally posted by Tenken347
        Originally posted by CajunMan
        Shawn Michaels broke?? Not getting any $$$$ from the DX merchandise? Not getting paid by Vince?


      I think they were trying to imply that he just didn't have any savings left, nothing to use for his retirement or his children's future. Like, he's fine for now, but what's he going to do when he can't wrestle any more.


    Cole or Lawler said he was broke. I still don't buy it, even if both guys have done their best with the material. It just seems like they said, "Well, we have to do something with Shawn and JBL". Now if Shawn really was struggling, fine, but it's a bit of an insult to those who truly have lost everything this year knowing this guy more than likely has 10 million in the bank.

    The show was good overall, though. The tag title match and main event were both very good, long matches, and it's rare we get that on free TV.


Come on now, I thought we'd moved past this "that storyline is insulting/demeaning" logic here. How is it any more insulting than any other TV show or movie where they show an actor down on his luck. Was Nick Nolte insulting poor people in "Down and Out in Beverly Hills," or was it okay because he got to have sex with rich people? Do all the "ripped from the headlines" crime shows insult the people those have happened to because the actors portraying them aren't struggling? It's a plot on a TV show. It's not insulting to anyone.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.40
Speaking of the Michaels/JBL angle, JBL is looking ill. His weight loss worries me.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.19

Vince is supposed to be getting a private screening of the movie, I think from Aronofsky himself.

I can't imagine him liking it, since it will not "put smiles on people's faces."



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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.55
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    Speaking of the Michaels/JBL angle, JBL is looking ill. His weight loss worries me.


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kentish
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Since: 19.8.05
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.72
    Originally posted by Hokienautic

    Come on now, I thought we'd moved past this "that storyline is insulting/demeaning" logic here. How is it any more insulting than any other TV show or movie where they show an actor down on his luck. Was Nick Nolte insulting poor people in "Down and Out in Beverly Hills," or was it okay because he got to have sex with rich people? Do all the "ripped from the headlines" crime shows insult the people those have happened to because the actors portraying them aren't struggling? It's a plot on a TV show. It's not insulting to anyone.

So it's not insulting to ANYONE? That's a broad statement. As is the notion that we have all moved past the idea that a storyline can be insulting/demeaning because there is no difference between Shawn Michaels and Nick Nolte. Not everyone looks at it that way. While not insulted, I have stated since the beginning of the angle that this is just not believable. But that is just my opinion, and I would certainly not try to speak for everyone.




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Hokienautic
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Since: 2.1.02
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.65
    Originally posted by kentish
      Originally posted by Hokienautic

      Come on now, I thought we'd moved past this "that storyline is insulting/demeaning" logic here. How is it any more insulting than any other TV show or movie where they show an actor down on his luck. Was Nick Nolte insulting poor people in "Down and Out in Beverly Hills," or was it okay because he got to have sex with rich people? Do all the "ripped from the headlines" crime shows insult the people those have happened to because the actors portraying them aren't struggling? It's a plot on a TV show. It's not insulting to anyone.

    So it's not insulting to ANYONE? That's a broad statement. As is the notion that we have all moved past the idea that a storyline can be insulting/demeaning because there is no difference between Shawn Michaels and Nick Nolte. Not everyone looks at it that way. While not insulted, I have stated since the beginning of the angle that this is just not believable. But that is just my opinion, and I would certainly not try to speak for everyone.


I stand by my statement. You can discuss believability within the overall WWE storyline, but to say that it's insulting to someone who is poor because a TV character is portrayed as being down on his luck due to the economy? That's absurd.
spf
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by kentish
        Originally posted by Tenken347
          Originally posted by CajunMan
          Shawn Michaels broke?? Not getting any $$$$ from the DX merchandise? Not getting paid by Vince?


        I think they were trying to imply that he just didn't have any savings left, nothing to use for his retirement or his children's future. Like, he's fine for now, but what's he going to do when he can't wrestle any more.


      Cole or Lawler said he was broke. I still don't buy it, even if both guys have done their best with the material. It just seems like they said, "Well, we have to do something with Shawn and JBL". Now if Shawn really was struggling, fine, but it's a bit of an insult to those who truly have lost everything this year knowing this guy more than likely has 10 million in the bank.

      The show was good overall, though. The tag title match and main event were both very good, long matches, and it's rare we get that on free TV.


    Come on now, I thought we'd moved past this "that storyline is insulting/demeaning" logic here. How is it any more insulting than any other TV show or movie where they show an actor down on his luck. Was Nick Nolte insulting poor people in "Down and Out in Beverly Hills," or was it okay because he got to have sex with rich people? Do all the "ripped from the headlines" crime shows insult the people those have happened to because the actors portraying them aren't struggling? It's a plot on a TV show. It's not insulting to anyone.

If they're just actors, they should be part of SAG.

WWE cannot have it both ways. You can't bring in the real lives of the actors, and then demand that they be totally removed from those lives when the storyline demands it. We know they are all playing roles, but when the storyteller blurs the lines between the story and the world outside of the "WWE universe" as they often do, you cannot blame the fans for not cooperating when suddenly the storyteller wants you to totally ignore any other information.



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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.31
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    BLACKSAW JIM DUGGAN


Dude.

BLACKSAW JIM THUGGIN' was right there.



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Since: 8.10.03
From: Columbia MO

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.86
Another good show for WWE. They're on a bit of a roll this week.

I don't really see how it isn't believable in the current economic atmosphere that a person could lose a ton of money they have tied up in the market. A lot of people have lost a lot of money this way lately. I wish they wouldn't act as if he's dead broke, just say he lost his retirement and his childrens college fund. I think his explanation of being close to the end of his career and not being sure how much longer he can make the big paydays is completely plausible. He could also say he has a lot of medical bills with all the injuries over the years. I am glad they said the DX ads were filmed weeks before, as I was irritated that he was in the one until they did.

Also, it's a wrestling angle, just try to suspend your disbelief a little.

Was anyone else thinking that they would have Rhodes and Manu offer Rey a spot in the Legacy? I was thinking maybe they would and Deuce was just a red herring. And where is Dibiase Jr.?

That was a heck of a last match and angle. Agreed with those who say every RAW should end with Batista getting kicked in the head. I'm loving the Legacy right now. Sweet moonsault press from Rhodes. And I love how Orton broke up the Batista Bomb by ramming Manu's head into Batista. He is Samoan after all!

Tag title match was good stuff. I'm glad they gave it 12 minutes and had the Kane stuff after the match. The reverse Russian legsweep bomb by Kofi was sweet. He seems to bust out something new and unique every time I watch him. I figure that Kofi is the guy Kelly Kelly was protecting by telling Kane it was the Miz. They did make a nice mixed tag team on ECW earlier this year. Either that or KK didn't want to admit she was with the Miz to the other girls. I'm intrigued by the KK and Kane thing, but also dread another terrible Kane storyline.

Candice Michelle is not that great looking. But I'd still hit it.

Yeah, I have no idea where there Cryme Tyme/Duggan thing is going, but I have a feeling it will lead to some bad comedy.

I'm digging everything about Dolph Ziggler but the name. Could that one kid have look any less excited to get a present? I also heard the ref say "Don't do this to Santa!" which got a good laugh from me.

Jericho refusing to wrestle fit his character perfectly.

I like the way they are determining the new #1 contender for Cena. Matches for next week are:

Punk/Jericho-Jericho, as Punk will feud with Regal
Michaels/Kane-Michaels
Rey/JBL-JBL, he'll be in there with Michaels to push the employer/employee angle
Batista/Orton-Orton, as Batista can't compete because of concussion

Hmm. Of course there's no face for the fans to root for in that scenario, so I'm probably wrong.

I wonder if they actually take the time to build the Punk/Regal IC title match to the Rumble?










Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.02
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    or my guess...

    Kofi Kingston. K2 <3 K2. Kane <3 K2 and thus must send K2 to Hell.

    It's the first angle that can be easily explained via txt. lol.


Quoted because that made me laugh more than anything about wrestling since Canadian Bulldog was doing his thing.

Hokienautic, the problem with your logic is that Shawn Michaels the storyline character is a successful wrestler who has been making main-event money for years and can still command big bucks. It's not as though they brought in a new wrestler whose character is poor and people were complaining because we know that the guy has money in real life.
Hokienautic
Toulouse








Since: 2.1.02
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.65
    Originally posted by MUTigermask

    Punk/Jericho-Jericho, as Punk will feud with Regal
    Michaels/Kane-Michaels
    Rey/JBL-JBL, he'll be in there with Michaels to push the employer/employee angle
    Batista/Orton-Orton, as Batista can't compete because of concussion

    Hmm. Of course there's no face for the fans to root for in that scenario, so I'm probably wrong.




I'm thinking they might put Rey over JBL and Michaels over Kane, with JBL then taking Michaels' spot in the Fatal Fourway.

And to clarify ... Stephanie called it an elimination match, but I don't believe it was ever referred to as such the rest of the night. Did she slip, or did I miss a reference later on?

    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon

    Hokienautic, the problem with your logic is that Shawn Michaels the storyline character is a successful wrestler who has been making main-event money for years and can still command big bucks. It's not as though they brought in a new wrestler whose character is poor and people were complaining because we know that the guy has money in real life.



Then that's a believability issue, not an issue of "that's insulting to poor people." And I think they at least approached the realm of explaining that last night -- yeah, he's made lots of money, but he's spent lots of it too. Even rich folk can live paycheck to paycheck, and he stated that while he might be secure for now, he needs to keep the future of his kids and other relatives secure too.

I have no issue with anyone who debates the believability of the angle. I just think it's silly to insist that someone will be insulted or offended because a wrestler is involved in an angle about a subject that affects them in real life. Hell, I've been dumped before -- does that mean I should be insulted if a married wrestler is dumped by his on-screen girlfriend?

(edited by Hokienautic on 16.12.08 1320)
Dahak
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Since: 12.5.02
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.01
I for now at least like the HBK works for JBL storyline. However I want to see what's in it for JBL. Yes, JBL is a dick but there has to be a monetary or title payoff or something. Next weeks title shot matches will hopefully shed some more light on this storyline.



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CajunMan
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Since: 2.1.02
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.71
Shouldn't JBL be a big money loser too, I mean if Shawn is losing money than how is JBL making money with the market being what it is now? It would make more sense for JBL to be the man going broke in this storyline.

(edited by CajunMan on 16.12.08 1406)
spf
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by CajunMan
    Shouldn't JBL be a big money loser too, I mean if Shawn is losing money than how is JBL making money with the market being what it is now? It would make more sense for JBL to be the man going broke in this storyline.

    (edited by CajunMan on 16.12.08 1406)

Well, if they really want to blur the lines of reality and work further, bring in the fact that pretty much the loudest voice predicting all this shit coming down before it did was Meredith Whitney, a.k.a. Mrs. Layfield.



2007 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
Hokienautic
Toulouse








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.65
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by CajunMan
      Shouldn't JBL be a big money loser too, I mean if Shawn is losing money than how is JBL making money with the market being what it is now? It would make more sense for JBL to be the man going broke in this storyline.

      (edited by CajunMan on 16.12.08 1406)

    Well, if they really want to blur the lines of reality and work further, bring in the fact that pretty much the loudest voice predicting all this shit coming down before it did was Meredith Whitney, a.k.a. Mrs. Layfield.


Well, they DID want to blur the lines of reality and work further, because they DID bring that fact up. JBL stated that because his wife was able to see all this coming, they were able to move their assets into more solid investments and not only didn't lose money, but continued to gain money.
spf
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by spf
        Originally posted by CajunMan
        Shouldn't JBL be a big money loser too, I mean if Shawn is losing money than how is JBL making money with the market being what it is now? It would make more sense for JBL to be the man going broke in this storyline.

        (edited by CajunMan on 16.12.08 1406)

      Well, if they really want to blur the lines of reality and work further, bring in the fact that pretty much the loudest voice predicting all this shit coming down before it did was Meredith Whitney, a.k.a. Mrs. Layfield.


    Well, they DID want to blur the lines of reality and work further, because they DID bring that fact up. JBL stated that because his wife was able to see all this coming, they were able to move their assets into more solid investments and not only didn't lose money, but continued to gain money.

I know they alluded to it, but I think they could be more explicit about it.



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kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.72
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by MUTigermask

      Punk/Jericho-Jericho, as Punk will feud with Regal
      Michaels/Kane-Michaels
      Rey/JBL-JBL, he'll be in there with Michaels to push the employer/employee angle
      Batista/Orton-Orton, as Batista can't compete because of concussion

      Hmm. Of course there's no face for the fans to root for in that scenario, so I'm probably wrong.




    I'm thinking they might put Rey over JBL and Michaels over Kane, with JBL then taking Michaels' spot in the Fatal Fourway.

    And to clarify ... Stephanie called it an elimination match, but I don't believe it was ever referred to as such the rest of the night. Did she slip, or did I miss a reference later on?

      Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon

      Hokienautic, the problem with your logic is that Shawn Michaels the storyline character is a successful wrestler who has been making main-event money for years and can still command big bucks. It's not as though they brought in a new wrestler whose character is poor and people were complaining because we know that the guy has money in real life.



    Then that's a believability issue, not an issue of "that's insulting to poor people." And I think they at least approached the realm of explaining that last night -- yeah, he's made lots of money, but he's spent lots of it too. Even rich folk can live paycheck to paycheck, and he stated that while he might be secure for now, he needs to keep the future of his kids and other relatives secure too.

    I have no issue with anyone who debates the believability of the angle. I just think it's silly to insist that someone will be insulted or offended because a wrestler is involved in an angle about a subject that affects them in real life. Hell, I've been dumped before -- does that mean I should be insulted if a married wrestler is dumped by his on-screen girlfriend?

    (edited by Hokienautic on 16.12.08 1320)

In my original post, I did say "a bit of an insult", not insulting to the point of protesting the company. I didn't personally lose everything, but I can imagine that somewhere out there is someone who has, who watched this and was annoyed by a multi-millionaire pretending it happened to him. However I will gladly retract my original statement if it means you will stop "insulting" others who do not agree with your opinion, by using words like silly and absurd.

MUTigermask, I totally agree with you. Just losing his savings/retirement is a much more believable way to go. That actually sounds cool. Otherwise, are we expected to believe that JBL is paying Shawn more than Vince does each month? Hell, just headline another WrestleMania, that should cover it.







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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.91
You cannot get more explicit than "My wife and I saw the recession coming and invested in gold," which is almost word for word that he said two weeks ago.

I simply cannot wrap my head around how much people are complaining about this story line. There are leprechauns, boogeymen, guys who can shoot lightning and fire out of their hands, collapsing stages, a man that only reacts to the ringing of a bell, a man that kicks people in the head without repercussions, an African pretending to be Jamacian, and Mike Adamle.

...but THIS is ridiculous.

thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
The HBK money problems story would've worked better if they set up the money problems at all before doing the big JBL bit. If it was such a big problem to HBK, then it should've been a big problem before JBL made his offer.

The funny thing is, they knew where they were going with this before that promo, because JBL was doing the run-in and vaguely explaining his offer. It was only one week before, and ideally this is something set up long before (with HBK trying to find a more wrestling based way of solving his personal credit crunch, but ultimately not being able to make it work) but even a little hint of issues might make the setup easier to buy into. Instead, they compressed a whole lot of story into a couple segments, and it's a lot to swallow. That promos have come tried to get across a sentiment of "it's come to this!", but they failed to let the fans know they were actually going somewhere.

I think it's reasonable to not like the story because of all the loose threads, and it's just as reasonable to decide you're suspending disbelief already and just go with it because the segments themselves have been good.

I don't that it's a great story, and I'm sure it hasn't been great storytelling, but the speeches have been nice.

(edited by thecubsfan on 16.12.08 1501)


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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.83
    Originally posted by Dahak
    I for now at least like the HBK works for JBL storyline. However I want to see what's in it for JBL. Yes, JBL is a dick but there has to be a monetary or title payoff or something.
THIS is the point that I'm concerned with. At least when JBL told Mr. McMahon that Hornswoggle was Finlay's son and not his, you felt like he was doing it so that he could get some benefit from the Chairman (although...all he got out of it was a "no rules" match with Finlay at WrestleMania?)

Here, I have no idea what's his motivation. JBL has never struck me in the past as a guy who messes with lives because he can. He's more like - oh no, here comes a Trekker reference - he's more like a Ferengi, where he's only motivated by profit first and his own legacy a close second ("longest reigning champion in the history of Smackdown") and I don't see how rescuing HBK from his disastrous financial situation by making him his own Orlando Jordan II fits into either of those goals. ESPECIALLY since the original Orlando Jordan is probably available... and at a much cheaper rate. ;-)

EDIT: Test #1

EDIT: Test #2



(edited by CRZ on 17.12.08 1106)

(edited by CRZ on 17.12.08 1107)

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