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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #788 6/30/08 (Page 3)
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eventhis
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Since: 14.9.07

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.48
I've only followed CM Punk since his entrance into WWE. For those of you who've followed CM Punk and seen his heel persona in RoH -- do you think he might be better served by turning and working as a heel champion, maybe not right away, but sometime around Summerslam or shortly thereafter? They already have him winning the title in a backhanded manner, and since the draft, people have been mentioning the face/heel disparity going on with RAW; other than Jericho and JBL, you don't have any other main-event level heels.
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Since: 2.1.02
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by eventhis
    I've only followed CM Punk since his entrance into WWE. For those of you who've followed CM Punk and seen his heel persona in RoH -- do you think he might be better served by turning and working as a heel champion, maybe not right away, but sometime around Summerslam or shortly thereafter? They already have him winning the title in a backhanded manner, and since the draft, people have been mentioning the face/heel disparity going on with RAW; other than Jericho and JBL, you don't have any other main-event level heels.

Punk can be an excellent heel, but now isn't the time. People want to get behind him, so you don't pull the rug on it right now. Wait until after he has some time with the belt, and then loses it. Then you can turn him into a bitter heel who wants you to know he is better than you.



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Since: 3.1.02
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

Agreed. Punk's heel "I'm better than you" character will only work if people really believe in the back of their minds that he really is better than them (and, by proxy, the rest of the roster). That's only going to come if Punk gets a legitimate push as champion while knocking off several top stars cleanly in the process. Edge in an actual match at the Bash, Cena at Summerslam (vitally important, this one), JBL for another go in-between, and maybe even Shawn Michaels at one point in the near future as a means of advancing the Shawn/Jericho feud further. That'll get Punk the credibility he needs to be established as a main-event talent and ultimately pull his heel character off a year or two down the road.

As far as filling the heel void on RAW in the interim is concerned, you can turn Batista heel very easily by reinvolving him in the Shawn/Jericho feud. You could even turn Shawn once the feud is over so that Jericho can go, "See, I told you so" to everybody and still get booed for being an honest man. (And I'll be honest through my bias: Jericho's the guy who should ultimately take the belt from Punk.)

And whither Orton, you say? To be honest, I'd actually prefer that Orton be put on Smackdown when he returns. Let him, Trips, Edge & UT circle-jerk the WWE title to their hearts' content and not mess with the new freshness that they've found for RAW in a flash.



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While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
Skarecrow
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Since: 5.5.05
From: Maryland

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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.46
I try not to hope for another Jericho title reign, I'm always disapointed.

I think the whole point of the MitB briefcase is that, at this point, it IS just about a guarenteed title at some point or other. They make a big deal over "Every time it's been used, the owner became champion!", etc.

I don't know how I feel about Punk as Champion. He certainly doesn't look like a champion, although part of that is what WWE has come to train me to expect as a champion. To be fair I felt the same way about Eddie (he never REALLY convincingly went over Brock or Angle that I remember, his whole lie, cheat, and steal sub-persona was still in effect), and to a much lesser extent Benoit (having him repeatedly go over HHH and Micheals cleanly made a big difference). I was just about positive that he was going to lose to JBL until I saw JBL's goons kick cena out of the building. I'm sorry, but I've been watching wrestling for too many years not to see the Cenaference coming a mile away.

I have no idea who Kofi Kingston is, having never watched ECW, and tonight didn't do much to tell me who he is. All I know is he's the guy who profited off of the feud between two people I actually am interested in seeing. Is he anything more than a "hey, I'm a jamacian!" gimmick? Watching NoC, I kept thinking about another time there was a surprise contender for the IC title, and this guy is no Ultimate Warrior. Does he have any charisma besides slapping the belt during his entrence?

I wanted nothing more tonight than after JBL declared martial law becuase he's "the richest man on raw" than to have new general manager Ted DiBiase Sr come out and say "no, no you're not".

JBL as top heel SUCKS. I've never understood the JBL love. Any heel in the business can play the same character he does (and most HAVE played that character), and he's got big floppy manboobs that mean I'm supposed to take him seriously as a wrestling god (when we've got micheals and jericho on the same program as him) and a huge powerhouse (when we've got cena, batista, and kane on the same program as him)? I just don't buy it.



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Since: 24.7.02

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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.97
Unless you are Ken Kennedy and you are dumb enough to accept a challenge for the briefcase. Briefcase holder 4-0 all-time in title matches, 0-1 all-time in briefcase defense matches.

(edited by redsoxnation on 2.7.08 0800)
hansen9j
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Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Unless you are Ken Kennedy and you are dumb enough to accept a challenge for the briefcase. Briefcase holder 4-0 all-time in title matches, 0-1 all-time in briefcase defense matches.

    (edited by redsoxnation on 2.7.08 0800)


Edge and Rob Van Dam would like to point out that briefcase holders are 2-1 in defenses.



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Since: 27.2.03
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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
    Originally posted by Skarecrow
    JBL as top heel SUCKS. I've never understood the JBL love. Any heel in the business can play the same character he does (and most HAVE played that character), and he's got big floppy manboobs that mean I'm supposed to take him seriously as a wrestling god (when we've got micheals and jericho on the same program as him) and a huge powerhouse (when we've got cena, batista, and kane on the same program as him)? I just don't buy it.


I agree that JBL is nothing special in the ring, but I think he's probably the best talker in the entire company right now, and I'm not forgetting about guys like Jericho either. I doubt I'd enjoy another world title reign out of him (in fact, I'd probably be a lot happier if he went back to commentary or got moved into a manager role), but if you want an established guy to take care of the like 3 nightly promos the top heel needs to do, then you could do a lot worse than JBL.
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Since: 10.10.02
From: New Hampshire

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.18
When C.M. Punk was thanking people and holding the belt and JBL came over and stared him down, that look of intimidation is something few others on the roster can pull off without seeming corny to me. He was very intense and quiet at the same time.
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
I have no problem with JBL until he gets in the ring. He plays the role of the bully perfectly. If his money can't get what he wants, he takes it with his fists. His character is great, and he gets it over with maximum impact.

Problem is that while that can make for a good interview and a character that sounds appealing, his work in the ring, though competent, just feels very bland. Once he gets in the ring he's the same guy who has been wrestling a very generic big man match since he was John Hawk 15 years ago.




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Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.38
    Originally posted by spf
    I have no problem with JBL until he gets in the ring. He plays the role of the bully perfectly. If his money can't get what he wants, he takes it with his fists. His character is great, and he gets it over with maximum impact.

    Problem is that while that can make for a good interview and a character that sounds appealing, his work in the ring, though competent, just feels very bland. Once he gets in the ring he's the same guy who has been wrestling a very generic big man match since he was John Hawk 15 years ago.


Wow, I could not disagree more. If anything I like JBL once he's in the ring. I dig his in-ring style, particularly the Stan Hansen big-man throwback stuff.

It's his promos I can't stand. Half the time it seems like he doesn't know where to put the emphasis, and the other half of the time he doesn't put emphasis on anything. So he just comes out and "talks...real...low". Puts me to sleep every time.

I gotta say, the segment I enjoyed most on RAW was the one with Jamie Noble and Kane. Noble stepping to Katie Lea was freaking hilarious..."I was a big deal on Smackdown". THEN getting in Kane's face, kicking him in the gut and running away? Pure gold. Talk about guys that are underutilized...perhaps the only more purely entertaining dude on the roster is Santino, and he can't work one-tenth as well as Noble can.

Punk winning was cool and all, but my initial reaction to Michael Cole announcing CM Punk was your new World Heavyweight Champion was "my God, it's official - RAW's no longer the A show." There are ways they CAN make this work from here on in, but Punk has been far from protected, especially since his MitB win.

redsoxnation and Justin Shapiro were discussing the opportunities presented of having a "weak" champion who could drop the title at any given moment. To an extent, I agree, in that people will tune in to see if this is the week he gets beat. The problem, however, is that this strategy really only works for a couple defenses, if that. Then you either establish that it wasn't a fluke and he's a legit champion or pull the plug and have him drop it, because it gets old real quick, and those types of champions traditionally don't draw.



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Since: 2.1.02

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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.82
It's his facial expressions after he makes one of his dickhead points that does it for me. It drives me up the wall, and I agree that he plays the character well. I just don't like him as top heel. He's more of a third heel.

I'm not a huge fan of him in the ring. He's better in heavily gimmicked matches and I do admire his willingness to bleed.

Alessandro
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Worcester MA

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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.04
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    What does Shawn Michaels look like? A male librarian?


So what the heck's wrong with looking like a male librarian?



EDIT: Actually, I always thought that an evil male librarian would make a great wrestler (I think GLOW or something has featured the female librarian) ... You could call him "Dewey Decimate" and have him berate the fans for having overdue library books.

That's indie GOLD, Jerry!





(edited by Alessandro on 3.7.08 1512)


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Since: 26.8.02

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#53 Posted on
Add me to the list of people who want JBL to take over the General Manager position. Not that anyone has actually expressed that thought, but I'm sure it was just an oversight.

CM Punk as champion obviously has to lead to one think: A feud with Sargent Slaughter.
Skarecrow
Polska kielbasa








Since: 5.5.05
From: Maryland

Since last post: 2137 days
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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.46
JBL as general manager would go a very long way towards making me stop watching RAW.

See, here's the thing. JBL is playing the same character as half the heels in wrestling history (you've got your overconfident heel, and your cowardly cheating heel), and he simply doesn't do it anywhere near well enough to be Top heel. Say what you want about about Hunter and his real-life behind-the-scenes ego, he had a certain air of legitimacy as top heel. Same with the million dollar man, macho man randy savage, stone cold steve austin (when he was actually a real heel, and not a cool tweener heel), and even edge (when compared to JBL). Hell, even orton should be higher up on the heel totem pole than JBL.

I don't think it's title reigns either. You could put the belt on him another half dozen times, and that wouldn't do it for me. He just doesn't have that air of believability. When HHH, for example, would tell you that he was "that... damn... good" sure you could boo him, but you had to admit that from a realistic point of view, he probably was one of the better wrestlers in the company. When JBL calls himself a wrestling god, it doesn't make me dislike him with heel heet, it makes me dislike him with x-pac heat. It makes me just want to watch him less.

Think of Roddy piper circa 1984 or 1985. You wanted to see him get beat, and he was genuinely entertaining (in heel fashion, of course) before, during, and after the match. JBL I want to get beat just because every time he gets beat it puts a little more hope in me that he may be pushed further down the card to feud with the IC titleholder or something like that. He isn't entertaining before the match... all he does is waste a TON of time in non-amusing fashion (anybody remember when he stood in the ring with his arm in the air and fireworks went off for like 5 minutes solid when he returned to RAW??). He isn't entertaining during the match. He's got a veteran's ring sense and that's about it. I've NEVER seen a 5 star match out of JBL. NEVER. I've seen him get carried to about a 3 and a half star match, that's about it.

Even assuming he was good at the promos (which I hate) and good at wrestling (which I'll vote as passable, but no better, compared to his peers who've been in the business as long as him like taker, micheals, and hell even kane), the WWE still treats his character wrong. He hardly ever gets his comeuppance. He gets beat in a match and then he's back again next week bullying somebody else. Nobody wants to see the bullying, they want to see the comeuppance. I think the last time JBL really got was was coming to him, if memory serves, is when Jericho strangled him with some cabling. When you compare the way the JBL character is handled (and the way JBL himself behaves) to Adam Copeland and the Edge character, there is absolutely no equality. Edge is heads and shoulders above JBL.

I'm not saying Boot JBL from the WWE, I'm just saying that there is no way he should be the top heel feuding for the championship. he should be midcard to upper midcard, constantly jobbing to future stars and occasionally beating a lower midcarder to keep his credibility.

He should be an early 2000s Kane.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
You really could've condensed that down to about three sentences. Also, you're wrong. JBL is and will always be an obstacle heel. His job is to stand in your way and generally piss you off until you find a way to beat him. And he does it well.

Backstage, JBL basically said "Are you fucking serious" with only his eyes. That example pretty much elevates him above Edge's boringness, John Cena's Nostalgia Road promos, and Triple's talk of Ancient Times and dragons and whatever shit he talks about.

Bottom line: JBL is better than you. AND that night he did the fireworks was the greatest night ever.

Edit: MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

(edited by Super Shane Spear on 2.7.08 1730)
Alex
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Since: 24.2.02

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.49
JBL is one of the best actual heels in the company, second perhaps only to Vickie Guerrero.

Super Shane Spear, you are selling Edge wayyyy short, Edge is just the scummiest most weaselly son of a bitch, whereas JBL is pretty much exactly as you say. It doesn't hurt that he was exactly right in calling Punk out on the cheapass way he won the title.

There is no such thing as X-Pac heat.
Skarecrow
Polska kielbasa








Since: 5.5.05
From: Maryland

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.46
Sure I could have condensed it down to 3 sentences, but I majored in English in school. I have to do something useful with all that money invested.

Besides, a page of text with examples and elaboration makes for a much more interesting read than "I don't like JBL, he sucks."

Back on topic:

JBL is one of the best heels in the company solely for lack of good heels. He can play the part decently enough to act as a foil for faces, but I still, after 3 or 4 years of this, view him as a shadow of Ted DiBiase. His facial expressions are good, I'll give him that, but as soon as he opens his mouth he loses me.

If you go on pure entertainment value, I'd vote Santino as a more interesting heel, and I'm hardly a huge Santino fan. Santino is nowhere close to being top heel, but I'd much rather hear santino's music hit than JBL's during a face promo. When JBL's music hits, I already know exactly what he's going to say, exactly what I'm going to hear, and that is ok if you're the Rock. It's not ok if you're not.

Maybe it's because I never heard him on commentary (I didn't watch SD during the time he was on the mic). Maybe he's a lot better when he's commenting on other people. Jesse Ventura was great on the commentary mic, and I didn't want to see him in the ring in the least. But when he's comparing himself to other people, refering to everybody else as "son" and piling on himself more accolades than ric flair, sean micheals, bret hart, and hulk hogan all together deserve, without even a hint of tongue-in-cheek, it just makes me want to fast forward to the next segment.

If that's what does it for you guys, if that's what you like, I suppose that's why they keep him on the show. To each their own I suppose.



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Since: 17.11.03
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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00


    JBL is one of the best heels in the company solely for lack of good heels. He can play the part decently enough to act as a foil for faces, but I still, after 3 or 4 years of this, view him as a shadow of Ted DiBiase.


Really, the only thing he has in common with Ted Dibiase's character is they both have money.

JBL's character is "I'm rich, I can DO anything I want" whereas Dibiase's was "I'm rich, I can BUY anyone I want and have them do the work for me". Big difference.

(edited by JoshMann on 3.7.08 0026)


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Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.90
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

    Originally posted by JoshMann
    JBL's character is "I'm rich, I can DO anything I want" whereas Dibiase's was "I'm rich, I can BUY anyone I want and have them do the work for me". Big difference.

Not only is that true, but it's kind of odd in a way, given that when you consider their wrestling abilities, Dibiase should have gone with the DO approach while JBL should have gone with the FOR approach.



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While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
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Since: 16.4.02
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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
Welcome home, men of the 2nd Bn, 127th Inf, 32d "Red Arrow" Brigade, WI Army Nat'l Guard! Good luck to those down south.

    Originally posted by Skarecrow
    Maybe it's because I never heard him on commentary (I didn't watch SD during the time he was on the mic). Maybe he's a lot better when he's commenting on other people. Jesse Ventura was great on the commentary mic, and I didn't want to see him in the ring in the least.


Bingo. JBL as a heel color guy on SmackDown! was awesome. He and Cole reminded me a lot of the McMahon/Ventura duo of old. Great stuff.









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