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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #788 6/30/08 (Page 2)
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ironcladlou
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.44
Was anyone else convinced that Santino was gonna bust out a "Raymond Stereo"?



"I could drown the pain, and drink upon commuter trains, and here you stand in eastern standard time"
- Mike Doughty
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.76
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
      Originally posted by shawnpatrick

      They finally did something I've wanting, to stop the build-up crap that never works and just put the title on someone fresh, and they did just that.



    Oh, for God's sake. Yeah, building up wrestlers into credible champions over time NEVER works. It didn't work for Shawn Michaels. It didn't work for Bret Hart. It didn't work for Randy Savage. It didn't work for Edge. It didn't work for Eddie Guerrero. It didn't work for Chris Benoit. It didn't work for The Rock. It didn't work for Stone Cold Steve Austin. The list goes on of legends it never worked for.

    People who have been handed World Titles without that build up over time: Hulk Hogan, Sid, Diesel, Batista, John Cena.

    What do they have in common? They're all huge muscle dudes who, in Vince McMahon land, are instantly credible because they're huge and can overpower opponents. Vince McMahon has always known how to sell that, and it still doesn't always work.

    Which category does CM Punk fall into?

    Punk's trajectory SHOULD have been the Intercontinental Title, beating Jericho, JBL, maybe even HBK, and then challenging Cena or Batista at WrestleMania. That would have worked because... it always does.

    But again, whatever. CM Punk will sink or swim. Don't get me wrong, I hope he succeeds. I hope this experiment works. And I do like the unpredictability. I just think he's not ready and curiosity factor aside, I don't think the general fandom see him as ready. Time will tell.


I do agree that a new champ should be built up somewhat prior to winning, but Eddie and Bret are not great examples. Bret beating Flair was out of left field in 1992, and it took many fans a while to accept him at that level. He had just lost the IC belt a few months prior. Eddie was a tag team guy with a failed heel turn against Tajiri just a few months before beating Brock. True, those guys had fan support, but few probably thought they were on the cusp of being World champion.

If Punk had used the IC belt as his trajectory, he would come off as stupid for settling for that (now) meaningless belt, when he could have the cashed it in for the match of a lifetime vs. a World Champion.

So many people wanted new faces being pushed, and that is what we now have, at least on Raw. I am not a fan of Punk either way, but marked out with his win, because it was great television. As was his victory over JBL, because I had the sinking feeling he would drop the belt. But they didn't screw it up, so props to them for an exciting episode with legitimate drama.

I like the Cena/Cryme Tyme team up, and think they would make a good faction.

The best part about this show? It captured that element of unpredictability that Raw had about 10 years ago.




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 127 days
Last activity: 90 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.26
    Originally posted by kentish


    If Punk had used the IC belt as his trajectory, he would come off as stupid for settling for that (now) meaningless belt, when he could have the cashed it in for the match of a lifetime vs. a World Champion.



Oh no, I never meant that Punk should have cashed in the briefcase for an IC Title shot. First, that would be insane. Second, the Money in the Bank isn't meant for secondary titles, it can only be cashed in for a World Title shot, so that wouldn't have been possible anyway. But I knew I should have phrased that differently.

What I meant to write was: "Punk's trajectory SHOULD have been the Intercontinental Title, beating Jericho, JBL, maybe even HBK, and then cashing in Money in the Bank against Cena or Batista at WrestleMania."

Imagine that, a CM Punk who has momentum at his side from months of victories and a run as Intercontinental Champion cashing in his golden ticket on the top dog on RAW at the biggest show of the year. AND THEN having a match that wins his doubters over with his skill and tenacity on his way to becoming World Heavyweight Champion. That would have been a surefire way of creating a main eventer. (Although as Justin said, that might not be WWE's intention with Punk, which is a shame, and also I think, my point.)

Instead, Punk cashed in on a guy he has never beaten on his own in a straight match (and conveniently doesn't have to rematch because he's on a different brand) who was already beaten down by a credible main event guy. Then he beat another top guy because JBL was distracted by a different top guy, John Cena. Considering Punk is a babyface, I question the wisdom of this booking, is all. But if you loved it, good for you. I liked the "unpredictability" of it, myself, but little else.

On a related but different note, man, do I miss heel announcers. I miss the old Jerry Lawler and I miss JBL on the mic. All six announcers now are faces and any of those three teams would have reacted the same way: with jubilation for what Punk did.

What we needed as the different perspective from a heel announcer: that what Punk did was no different from what Edge did to Undertaker last year, which was such a dastardly act Michael Cole wanted Edge assassinated for it. Instead virtually the same thing happens again and Cole loved it. Because "Edge is a jerk." And yet so is Punk for pulling that stunt, but that's "okay." A good heel announcer like Bobby Heenan, Jesse Ventura, or Lawler ten years ago would have been all over that.



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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.31
The first RAW to have me hooked in a long time. I barely changed the channel. When Vince announced the draft, he said the company needed new faces and new feuds, and that's what we have.

JBL ate the finisher as well as Edge. Way to put over the new guy, fellas.

RAW was refreshing, and I'm a happy wrestling fan.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Packman V2
Bratwurst








Since: 16.3.04
From: Albuquerque, NM

Since last post: 7 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.48
Not only do I really like that they out of nowhere put the title on Punk, but the way they did it. He out-Edged Edge. He took the play right out of Edge's MITB Cashing in Playbook (not available on Amazon.com), and beat Edge with one of his own tricks.

Not only that, but with Edge's "you wont see me unless it's a draft show" promo writes out any chance of a rematch, and leaves a slow burning feud between Punk and Edge for down the road at some point.

Great Raw, fresh faces, fresh angles, and I for one, really like the team of Cole and Lawler.




Wpob
Lap cheong








Since: 21.11.02
From: Williston Park, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Quick Thoughts:

When Batista was killing Edge, I said out loud if Punk does not cash in NOW, then I am pretty much writing him off for good. I was glad he did and what made it more beleivable was when he kept motioning to the ref to ring the bell, like he knew if they did not ring it now, then a run in would happen and he would lose. Great opening segment and I hope that Punk is the man for at least two to three months to build him up as a viable ME.

Jericho rules. He is so on. I am hoping now that he moves onto challenge Punk or Batista or HBK. Dropping the IC was the total right thing to do and without HHH in his way, the ME is now a place he can be for a while.

I hate JBL the wrestler, but JBL on the mic is stellar. His opening promo on Punk was great and really had me beleiving Punk was going to be a 1:45 minute champ. A Cena/JBL feud is coming - I fear.



"Marriage is like that show ‘Everybody Loves Raymond’, but it’s not funny. All the problems are the same, but you know instead of all the funny, pithy dialogue, everybody is really pissed off and tense. Marriage is like a tense, unfunny version of 'Everybody Loves Raymond', only it doesn't last 22 minutes. It lasts forever."

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Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30


Like a lot of you, I decided to watch from the beginning tonight after many weeks of watching zero wrestling, and I wasn't sure where it was going.

After the Batista Bomb of Edge, I switched the channel to the Royals game. I only flipped back once to see JBL's security carrying Cena out of the building.

I guess I should have stayed on the channel after the Batista Bomb, huh?




The World Champion New York Football Giants
redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 291 days
Last activity: 291 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.97
This is a low risk move. If it works, you have fresh title matches with Punk against Batista, Cena, Michaels and Jericho. If it doesn't, you job him the first chance you get against any of the others, and you can build up other guys by having them go over Former World Heavyweight Champion CM Punk. Plus, it adds the whiff of unpredictability with a 'weak' World Champion, where any singles match he's in is a must watch because a title change could realistically occur.
As for using the I-C Title as an upward trajectory, the ECW Title is probably close to I-C Title status, so he went that route, before being jobbed out of town as the draft approached.
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.76
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
      Originally posted by kentish


      If Punk had used the IC belt as his trajectory, he would come off as stupid for settling for that (now) meaningless belt, when he could have the cashed it in for the match of a lifetime vs. a World Champion.



    Oh no, I never meant that Punk should have cashed in the briefcase for an IC Title shot. First, that would be insane. Second, the Money in the Bank isn't meant for secondary titles, it can only be cashed in for a World Title shot, so that wouldn't have been possible anyway. But I knew I should have phrased that differently.

    What I meant to write was: "Punk's trajectory SHOULD have been the Intercontinental Title, beating Jericho, JBL, maybe even HBK, and then cashing in Money in the Bank against Cena or Batista at WrestleMania."

    Imagine that, a CM Punk who has momentum at his side from months of victories and a run as Intercontinental Champion cashing in his golden ticket on the top dog on RAW at the biggest show of the year. AND THEN having a match that wins his doubters over with his skill and tenacity on his way to becoming World Heavyweight Champion. That would have been a surefire way of creating a main eventer. (Although as Justin said, that might not be WWE's intention with Punk, which is a shame, and also I think, my point.)

    Instead, Punk cashed in on a guy he has never beaten on his own in a straight match (and conveniently doesn't have to rematch because he's on a different brand) who was already beaten down by a credible main event guy. Then he beat another top guy because JBL was distracted by a different top guy, John Cena. Considering Punk is a babyface, I question the wisdom of this booking, is all. But if you loved it, good for you. I liked the "unpredictability" of it, myself, but little else.

    On a related but different note, man, do I miss heel announcers. I miss the old Jerry Lawler and I miss JBL on the mic. All six announcers now are faces and any of those three teams would have reacted the same way: with jubilation for what Punk did.

    What we needed as the different perspective from a heel announcer: that what Punk did was no different from what Edge did to Undertaker last year, which was such a dastardly act Michael Cole wanted Edge assassinated for it. Instead virtually the same thing happens again and Cole loved it. Because "Edge is a jerk." And yet so is Punk for pulling that stunt, but that's "okay." A good heel announcer like Bobby Heenan, Jesse Ventura, or Lawler ten years ago would have been all over that.


You make a good point about the unpredictability providing a great moment, but I am not excited either about him as champ. While I don't prefer muscle bound freaks as champ, Cm Punk just looks like the guy who works on my car. Then again, redsoxnation makes a great point. You don't know if any given match with Punk might be his last as champ. that is intriguing.

I also agree that a heel announcer is needed. JBL is sorely missed in that regard. Hell, why can't King work as a heel these days? Is he like Cena and sell too much merchandise to be a heel? I doubt it.






"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
If they wanted to get me back as a regular viewer, they could have done this a few weeks ago, instead of giving away a couple of million bucks.

I'm an admitted CM Punk fan. I've seen him working high school gyms. Friends of mine remember him in his backyard wrestling days. He's been someone I've always thought could get to this level one day, but never really expected it to happen.

I haven't been this genuinely excited about a moment in WWE since the end of WMXX. This feels the same way to me in many ways. He didn't have the same sort of struggles and Benoit and Guerrero did, but his path was different. With them it was like watching a great unsigned band go from small clubs to big arenas. But they were always on a different level than those admiring them. With Punk it feels like a peer has succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 17 min.
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.39
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Plus, it adds the whiff of unpredictability with a 'weak' World Champion, where any singles match he's in is a must watch because a title change could realistically occur.


A fine point. They could've had something similar with Rey but instead just beat him clean repeatedly in non-title matches.

    Originally posted by kentish
    While I don't prefer muscle bound freaks as champ, Cm Punk just looks like the guy who works on my car.


What does Shawn Michaels look like? A male librarian?
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.76
    Originally posted by kentish
    While I don't prefer muscle bound freaks as champ, Cm Punk just looks like the guy who works on my car.


What does Shawn Michaels look like? A male librarian?


And Shawn hasn't been champion in 6 years. However, when he rose to stardom, he was bigger/more muscular, and had the look of a star. Just check him out right now on 24/7. Punk is greasy, scrawny, and tattooed. I can't help it, he ACTUALLY looks like the guy who works on my car. That wasn't a joke.




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
emma
Cherries > Peaches








Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 23 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.36
Funniest moment of the whole show: Edge is down, Punk's in the ring with the ref & the briefcase, we're doing this ... & there's about a minute's worth of discussion between the ref, the timekeeper, Lillian making the announcement, & the bell actually ringing. During which, Punk is in the background frantically gesturing "keep it moving", "time is money", tapping his wrist. It's the little things that are so important. :-)
DrewDewce
Bratwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Derby City

Since last post: 39 days
Last activity: 3 hours
Y!:
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.15
Put me down as one of the people who had not watched regularly in some time (and pretty much none for the last year or so) who was just about riveted last night and I'm not a CM Punk fan for some of the same reasons mentioned by Kentish and others above (although we go to different auto repair shops I believe). And as mentioned above, I really hope Jericho gets a shot at Punk as he would match up with him well physically as well as probably cut promos on quite a bit of the stuff mentioned above against him.

They certainly took advantage of the draft this year and I'll check it out again next week to see if they can keep my attention.





It is a good rule in life never to apologize. The right sort of people do not want apologies, and the wrong sort take a mean advantage of them.
P. G. Wodehouse (1881 - 1975), The Man Upstairs (1914)
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.76
    Originally posted by DrewDewce
    Put me down as one of the people who had not watched regularly in some time (and pretty much none for the last year or so) who was just about riveted last night and I'm not a CM Punk fan for some of the same reasons mentioned by Kentish and others above (although we go to different auto repair shops I believe). And as mentioned above, I really hope Jericho gets a shot at Punk as he would match up with him well physically as well as probably cut promos on quite a bit of the stuff mentioned above against him.

    They certainly took advantage of the draft this year and I'll check it out again next week to see if they can keep my attention.




There ya go. Proof positive that this was a much better way to bring back fans, not bribing us with million dollar giveaways.




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
SEADAWG
Boudin rouge
Moderator








Since: 5.7.03

Since last post: 445 days
Last activity: 8 days
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.82
    Originally posted by pieman
    After the Batista Bomb of Edge, I switched the channel to the Royals game. I only flipped back once to see JBL's security carrying Cena out of the building.

    I guess I should have stayed on the channel after the Batista Bomb, huh?


The Royals coming back from a 5-1 deficit on the road, ultimately tying the game with a pinch hit homer in the 9th with 2 outs on an 0-2 count, is an occurrence perhaps equally as rare as CM Punk winning a world title.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.21
No mention of Santino calling him "Rey Mastrio"? I have never been won over by Punk, but his jubilation over winning the title made me realise that the old days of just pinning a guy and holding up the belt and pointing at yourself is old and tiring. New blood with gold is a good thing.
Texas Kelly
Lap cheong








Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

WORLD CHAMPION CM PUNK = RATINGS!

RAW draws a 3.5 (1wrestling.com)

That's an immensely positive sign considering that last night was exactly what the E has been needing to do with the flagship for YEARS. Here's hoping that it keeps going next week and onward.



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While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
2P4E
Boerewors








Since: 4.1.05
From: SE12, London, UK.

Since last post: 255 days
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.24
Or will they think those ratings reflect everyone's heartfelt concern for the condition of Mr McMahon?
Oliver
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Since: 20.6.02
From: Derkaderkastan

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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.38
I had to leave for work partway during RAW...and all I could think about the uneasy feeling that JBL was going to leave Monday as champ. I'm very glad they didn't go that route; I like JBL and all, but I've already seen him as champ. I love the idea of new blood getting a chance with the title.

    Originally posted by Kentish
    While I don't prefer muscle bound freaks as champ, Cm Punk just looks like the guy who works on my car.


That's actually what I like about CM Punk. Instead of a huge musclebound guy (Batista), or unusally large people (Khali, Henry, Big Show, to an effect) or and others, CM Punk adds a sense of believability to the title. He looks like Everyman; just another blue collar Joe or whatever.

When I think of CM Punk as champion, I see that anyone can achieve their dreams and become a world champ.

WWE programming hasn't been priority TV for me in some time, but yeah, with Punk as champion...definately gotta see where this goes.

(edited by Oliver on 1.7.08 1742)


You wouldn't like Ozu Makito when he's mad!




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