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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW #728, 5/7/07 (Page 2)
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kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 30 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.50
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
      Originally posted by kentish
      If they go with Edge as SD! champ, Matt getting the win over KK last week might justify a revival of their feud.


    I was just thinking that. Furthermore, you know what could be fun? If they do an Edge vs. Matt revival, I'd like to see Ashley come back all whored up as a heel and hang off of Edge as his new girlfriend. Play up that Matt's chicks keep swinging over to Edge. Besides, Ashley's whole tough punk girl chick persona has zero credibility and she has even less so as a pro wrestler. A heel Ashley slutting it up would work for me.

    But we're veering deep into fantasy booking waters now. Sorry, sorry!


The Ashley idea isn't bad. Would they dare bring Lita back to side with Matt??? How surreal would that be? Again though, fantasy booking. Who are we kidding, Matt's not getting that push. It's about as realistic as expecting Benoit to main event again.




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Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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Last activity: 9 hours
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.10
Matt feuding with Edge actually might be a viable mini-feud for Smackdown during a month when Raw has the 'main event' of a PPV. Sort of like how Cena and Khali were supposed to be the mini-feud for Judgement Day with Batista-Undertaker in the Cell on top. The Hardys seem to be getting a renewed push, and Hardy's win over Kennedy was a big step.

Edge leaving, while it helps Smackdown, pretty much decimates Raw. The top heel options are now a) walking problem child Orton b) Umaga, who's been totally wasted in this feud with Lashley and overshadowed by the McMahons and c) Khali....nuff said. This means that HHH will be virtually forced to turn heel upon his return.

And, just to get back on topic, this Raw stunk. They're now officially in a holding pattern until Triple H comes back, and how sad it is when Triple H is the freshest thing about the program?



kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 30 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.50
Perfect time to turn Cena, I say. He is getting more boos than cheers now anyway. Although, I can't see the fans booing him against Khali. But I doubt there will be much cheering during their match either.




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geemoney
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Since: 26.1.03
From: Naples, FL

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.67
    Originally posted by kentish
    Perfect time to turn Cena, I say. He is getting more boos than cheers now anyway.

But they were booing him more than cheering him all the way back to WrestleMania when he fought Triple H and before. It's not like this is a sudden happening, it's been off-and-on for like a year and a half.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Turning Cena would be incredibly stupid.



kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 30 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.50
"incredibly stupid?"

What, fans won't come out to see a guy they hate get his ass kicked? How did Flair draw money all those years? Or HHH in his hey day?

I know his merchandise sells well, but did Austin's not sell a ton when they turned him in 2001? Or Rock in 2003?

Cena's face act is INCREDIBLY stale, and he needs something to freshen up his character. And a feud with Khali will not do it. Merchandise would drop of, but I think ratings and box office would increase.

Would it be a risky move? Yes. But incredibly stupid?




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 12 days
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.35
    Originally posted by kentish
    I know his merchandise sells well, but did Austin's not sell a ton when they turned him in 2001? Or Rock in 2003?


He sells almost exclusively to children. Children are much less likely to buy merch from a heel. Austin & Rock were focused on an older crowd.

Personally, Cena has completely turned me around over the last year. I think the world of him as a wrestler (especially since I only tend to watch the PPVs now), and it's still so damn fun to boo him at the theatre. It's the best of both worlds for me.



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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 2047 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Yes, incredibly stupid. Right now Cena gets booed precisely BECAUSE he's a face, and because there's half the crowd also cheering him. He's completely unique. You can book him in any situation, against face or heel, and there'll be crowd support for it. He galvanises every crowd he appears in front of. They'd be nuts to risk that because a small minority of people think his act is stale. When the crowds stop reacting to him at all - THAT'S when you turn him.

And he moves a TON of merch. Using Austin's turn in '01 or Rocky's in '03 to counter that is flawed - the Austin turn didn't stick, and Rock was a part-timer who turned back face as soon as he came back for his next run.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
Deputy Marshall
Liverwurst








Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

Since last post: 67 days
Last activity: 6 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
    Originally posted by hansen9j
    He sells almost exclusively to children. Children are much less likely to buy merch from a heel. Austin & Rock were focused on an older crowd.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Using Austin's turn in '01 or Rocky's in '03 to counter that is flawed - the Austin turn didn't stick, and Rock was a part-timer who turned back face as soon as he came back for his next run.

Both points are correct, but also somewhat moot - the comparison doesn't work because you're talking about The Rock and Steve Austin, who at the time of their heel turns had become icons in the sports-entertainment industry and the biggest mainstream/crossover stars since Hogan in the mid 1980s. You could make the argument that Rock started out as a heel, but it was him turning face that brought in the big money and made him what he was.

Cena's popular with kids (and women, which everyone always forgets to mention even though it does fill some seats), is on top during a decent period financially, and was in a movie that pulled in a decent amount of money once it hit DVD - but it's still not even close. Turning him would kill the sole reason he's on top in the first place - the women MIGHT still cheer for him, but those young kids would stop buying merchandise completely (as others have already pointed out).

So yes, it would indeed be a monumentally stupid thing to do financially. That being said, it's only a matter of time. They'll turn him heel the moment his merchandise drops and stays at a low level. When that happens is anyone's guess.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 9.5.07 1335)

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Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Also, it's really unfair to say "only women & kids like Cena", especially when you read house show reports like this one (wrestlingobserver.com):

    Without a doubt, Roanoke is Cena country. EVERYONE came to see John Cena, and they let him know. He picked up the win by dq when Armando interfered. He beat down Armando, and hit an FU on Umaga. Great Khali came back out to...basically stand there and then leave a short time afterwards. Cena cut a promo on him, saying he'd kick his ass at Judgment Day.

    Biggest Pops:
    1. John Cena by FAR!
    2. Hardyz
    3. Cryme Tyme
    4. Mickie James
    5. Maria




kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 30 days
Last activity: 2 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.50
Austin's turn didn't last because he was still incredibly popular, but was in need of refreshing his character. Plus, he was an awesome heel. The people booed Rock because they felt he deserted them in 2002-03, but he was so damn entertaining as a heel, he was turned face again, a common occurrence for him during his career. It does compare to this situation in that Austin and Rock needed something to breathe new life into their characters, as I believe Cena does now. It has been the same act for about 3-4 years now with him. Can we not agree on that, at least?

Agreed, Cena's fan base is primarily children. Perhaps the problem is, the overall product (including Cena) is not marketed to children. If so, I doubt that he would have had to compete for air time with two guys yelling "Suck it". I do not want it to go that direction (marketing to kids), but I also am not ready for a return to the envelope pushing days of the late 90s.

I am not ready to anoint Cena as most improved wrestler just yet. Yes, his matches are entertaining, party due to his ability to sell. But his moveset is weak and limited. I think he has mostly benefited from working with better workers like Angle, HHH, HBK, and Edge over the last year and a half.

I am not a Cena hater, but every time he gives a promo it is the same old shit, and comes off scripted and manufactured, lacking none of the hardcore edge that got him over in the first place. I just with we could have more of that edge, whether it be as a heel, or whatever. If turning him heel is not the solution, what CAN refresh his character?




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Cena carried Umaga to a **** match in January. Sure, he's benefited from working with Michaels and Angle, but that's kinda the point. He's worked with the best and learnt from 'em. It's the same thing that's happened with Edge - they worked with good in-ring guys, then put their new skills to use against each other.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 3 hours
AIM:  
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Business-wise, they don't need to change a thing with regards to Cena. He's drawing people who want to boo him and to see him get his ass kicked, and he's drawing people who want to cheer him & to see him kick ass. He selling tons of merchandise. He's bringing in new fans. Half the fun of Cena matches is seeing what the crowd does. The split crowds are some of the best moments. If you're the WWE, why mess around with what's working?

I like the guy. Do I wish he'd get a little of that harder edge back? Sure. Do I wish he'd cut out the gay jokes? Sure. Would a heel Cena be an insanely fun character? Hells yeah! But now is not the time.

If the company was going to turn him heel, the time to do so would have been before his feud w/ Edge, when the boo's were really bad. And even turning him then would have been a total panic move. Turning him now would be a complete "WTF???" move.

EDIT: also, working against Angle & HHH really didn't do Cena any favors with regards to the crowd, as both of those guys were more interested in working "cool heel" against him, instead of wanting to get themselves boo'd. Working against Edge & Umaga really swung the crowd back in Cena's favor.

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 9.5.07 1528)


KJames199
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: #yqr

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 20 hours
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.23
    Originally posted by kentish
    I know his merchandise sells well, but did Austin's not sell a ton when they turned him in 2001? Or Rock in 2003?
Those are staggeringly bad examples if you're trying to suggest that a Cena turn would be successful and draw money.



JK
ekedolphin
Scrapple








Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 186 days
Last activity: 24 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.29
Eh, I dunno... remember when Hulk Hogan turned heel and joined the nWo back in 1996? That was really the last time I can remember such a high-profile heel turn being radically successful, but WCW also had a compelling storyline behind it and, really, changed the very way they put together their television shows.

A Cena turn might be successful under similar circumstances; "I didn't turn on the fans, the fans turned on me", he joins forces with two other guys and they're intent on running the whole damn show in WWE. But really, when WWE has allowed themselves to become a lot like McDonald's in a way-- just like you can always count on the Big Mac to be made exactly the same way, you can practically have a drinking game with the everyday things you see in WWE (like going to commercial after someone gets knocked from the ring, and returning to TV just in time to watch the first babyface comeback) I don't really give them credit for the kind of creativity such a storyline would require.



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kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.50
I would say the HHH heel turn, while not on the level of NWO/Hogan, was a great heel run from late '99-2000.

I am, again, only stating what I would LIKE to see happen, as this tired, "please cheer me" routine by Cena is stale in my opinion.




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hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.35
    Originally posted by kentish
    I would say the HHH heel turn, while not on the level of NWO/Hogan, was a great heel run from late '99-2000.


Well, to be fair, it took a substantial time for said heel turn to actually be anything you could call "successful". Depending on your definition, that'd either be about 5 months later, when he won his first title, or 9 months later, when his feud with Foley turned him into a true star.



Proud member of the Dwight Army of Champions.

Word Up, Thome
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 30 days
Last activity: 2 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.50
    Originally posted by hansen9j
      Originally posted by kentish
      I would say the HHH heel turn, while not on the level of NWO/Hogan, was a great heel run from late '99-2000.


    Well, to be fair, it took a substantial time for said heel turn to actually be anything you could call "successful". Depending on your definition, that'd either be about 5 months later, when he won his first title, or 9 months later, when his feud with Foley turned him into a true star.


I agree with you. His feud with Vince, and marriage to Stephanie in late '99 put him on the map. Then, his legendary feud with Foley made solidified him as a superstar, in addition to his matches later in 2000 with Rock and Jericho, among others.




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
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