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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW 12/15: What the HELL was that?!? (Page 2)
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The 5th Horseman
Kolbasz








Since: 23.10.02
From: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Since last post: 2970 days
Last activity: 2959 days
#21 Posted on
Maybe it's another angle where Mick turns against the fans because they don't appreciate him or only like him for damaging his body? He has done turns like that before in both ECW and WWF. That tribute video was full of him taking a beating and taking sick bumps. Then, the fans did cheer when Bischoff said the fans don't care about the suit wearing Mick Foley, but they do care about the "Hardcore Legend". He could come back and say he was disgusted that he got a much bigger cheer while coming out to wrestle than the cheer he got for coming out in the suit earlier in the show.


Of course, I don't understand why they would want, or how they could use, a heel Mick Foley at this point in his career.

(edited by The 5th Horseman on 16.12.03 0136)
Swordsman Yen
Frankfurter








Since: 16.2.02
From: Shaolin

Since last post: 3904 days
Last activity: 3887 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
If I can be serious for a minute...
    Originally posted by InVerse
    I'm beginning to see why the WWE doesn't bother with good writing, most of their fans have no ability to look more than 30 seconds in to the future...

    Tonight's ending, while certainly anti-climactic, is the perfect setup for the one thing Foley does better than take huge bumps.... cutting the most intense promos of all time.

    In two weeks, I have a feeling we're going to see one of Foley's best promos. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that it'll include the return of Steve Austin, but you take the bad with the good.


The writers don't bother with good writing because they aren't capable of good writing, and the last 3 years reflect that. Forgive me if I'm got gleeful about a possible killer Foley promo, as I tend to like a little wrestling mixed into my sports entertainment shows. Apparently, that was too much to ask of our genius WWE writers, who seemed to think making Foley look like a complete coward was much more compelling television.



BASTARD!
LotusMegami
Salami








Since: 22.9.03
From: Indiana

Since last post: 3390 days
Last activity: 3390 days
AIM:  
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.30
I couldn't even read the Fashion Report this week - it reminded me too much of the pain I suffered during the show.

Molly's Title reign has some things in common with Rob's.
She really does get no attention or respect because of it. The girls in the love angle get all of that.

Nothing against either of them, but Molly is holding a belt, and she's just treading water.



Don't all professional wrestlers have "more guts than brains" when it comes right down to it?
T.i.O a B.m.F
Mettwurst








Since: 25.10.03
From: T.i.O in U.s.A

Since last post: 3808 days
Last activity: 3807 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I liked the Mick angle. Mick's return match shouldnt be given away on free TV without even any build-up. They will proably say Mick remebered what Shawn said and thought of his family and decided to stay retired.

People complain tht WWE doesnt set-up WMania feuds. Well WWE just set up a Foley/Orton Mania match which will proably be for the IC title. They also made the IC title gain some credibility becuase its something Foley really wanted. This was a great RAW. The crowd was going nuts forthe HBK match too.



"T.he I.mmoral O.ne's A B.ad M.otha F.u*ka"
acrid 2.0
Bauerwurst








Since: 24.6.02
From: Wassenaar, The Netherlands

Since last post: 138 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
I agree. Good way to set the match up and make the fans want to know what Foley's motivation is.

Everyone's always complaining about the writing and how atrocious it is, in my opininon the storylines have been very solid and thought out since Summerslam and the writers are definitely thinking long term and RAW last night changed nothing. They are definitely going somewhere with the current angles and I for one can't wait to see what happens leading up to WrestleMania XX.

Some of you people should really try drop the almighty smark mantel and lighten up a little. Enjoy the WWE as presented and try to not get your panties in a bunch everytime the booking isn't done "the way you would have done it."

It's a wrestling TV show for god's sake.



Dave Gagnon
Mettwurst








Since: 25.7.03
From: Rimouski

Since last post: 3670 days
Last activity: 3667 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.48
This thing will lead somewhere in the future. Calm down everybody.





Even more Dave Gagnon goodness at www.1ryderfakin.com/gagnonmain.htm !!!
The Yak
Polska kielbasa








Since: 4.10.03

Since last post: 3041 days
Last activity: 2244 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
    Originally posted by LotusMegami
    I couldn't even read the Fashion Report this week - it reminded me too much of the pain I suffered during the show.

    Molly's Title reign has some things in common with Rob's.
    She really does get no attention or respect because of it. The girls in the love angle get all of that.

    Nothing against either of them, but Molly is holding a belt, and she's just treading water.



Speaking of the ladies, what in the HELL was up with that wicked diving-reverse headbutt from Lita? Look, I like the woman, and she has certainly done a lot for the WWE, but keep her out of there until she can keep herself safe, please.

And as far as the Foley thing goes, sorry dudes, but that glob of spit pretty much kept me from slicing this in any positive manner. It was a terrible story, and I'm a little surprised Foley had anything to do with it.
KingSlender
Chaurice








Since: 2.12.03
From: Buffalo

Since last post: 3746 days
Last activity: 3547 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.06
I'm kinda new here (as far as posting goes) so I'll try not to step on too many toes, but come on people. It appears that no matter what the WWE does it will never satisfy the members who post here. For months on end RAW was a sinking ship riddled w/ plot holes and ridiculous storylines that seemed to insult both the hardcore and the avid fan alike. Now I'll be first to admit that I see some things on RAW and on Smackdown that dont suit me but that doesnt make it unentertaining. One of the great things about RAW is the drama, even if it tends to be a bit dumbed down a bit at times, there is a real drama and as of late the whole, "you never know what to expect" feeling is back. I totally expected to see HBK and RVD get royally pummeled in there match tonight and then BAM!!! they get the suprise victory. The main event seemed so stacked in Foleys favor tonight that it was too good to be true. If Foley fights that match and theres a screwjob finish by lets say one of Bischoffs other lackeys like Christian maybe then the predictable ending plays out and everyone logs on to the the Wienerboard en' masse to cry about the way Mick got screwed. Tonights outcome did many things the way I see it.
1. Added mystique to Ortons character. By having Foley, one of the toughest sob's ever, walk out on a main event w/ so much on the line, simply because he knew he couldnt beat the younger, faster and more determined Orton he gave him "the rub" w/ out having to even lock up w/ him
2. Foley got his way anyways. It appears that Foley came back to do 2 things , bring back Austin, which will be done in 2 weeks, and to be a pain in the ass to Bishoff and Evolution.
3. Gave us a genuine moment between HBK and Foley backstage where Foley asked HBK if it was all worth it to get that one last match, then gave Shawn the title shot, that IMHO he deserves. HBK even as a semi-part-time performer has given some of the best in and out of ring work besides maybe Jerricho and Goldberg.

All I ever hear is they dont push new stars, they dont make good storylines, the writers are inept, my favorites never win (ie: Booker, RVD, Jerricho) and its always the same old predictable RAW, wah wah wah, I'll BOYCOTT DAMNIT, NEVER WATCH RAW AGAIN... till next week so I can cry some more. Well folks, tonight you got the opposite in every way and you still complained. Good luck makin anyone happy WWE.
Pike
Italian








Since: 7.4.03
From: KS

Since last post: 3732 days
Last activity: 3724 days
AIM:  
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.54
It suck nothing more to say then that.



Great Muta is a wrestling GOD!! praise the Great Muta.
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 33 days
Last activity: 2 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.12
    Originally posted by The Yak
    Speaking of the ladies, what in the HELL was up with that wicked diving-reverse headbutt from Lita?


I believe you're talking about her moonsault. If you can watch it again, take a look at how shaky her legs are climbing the ropes. She had no strength left in them, yet still tried the flip.

    Originally posted by acrid 2.0
    Some of you people should really try drop the almighty smark mantel and lighten up a little. Enjoy the WWE as presented and try to not get your panties in a bunch everytime the booking isn't done "the way you would have done it."


I remember back when the WWF used to say that bait-and-switching the main events and not delivering the matches they promised throughout the show was a big reason why fans were going to turn off Nitro and give up on WCW's booking. Funny how they've not only bought WCW's tape library, but also they're respect for the fans.

Also, I don't have to "enjoy the WWE as presented". Unless you're last name is McMahon, or you collect a WWE paycheck and your 'wife really likes the show and the direction of the characters', I'm not sure why you think the WWE should be given the right to not have fans complain when they don't like something that sucks. I can change the channel again just like I did tonight. Of course, I don't have a neilson box, so it doesn't *really* matter, but I certainly care less about the product by missing 50% of their programming for the week, and at least I wasn't as frustrated as I would have been had I kept watching.


    It's a wrestling TV show for god's sake.


No kidding. That doesn't mean that we should expect crap from it. I've seen this show be on a roll that lasted for a year straight (no "one week good, two weeks shit" deal they've been running lately) and that was when they were losing the ratings war.


Tribal Prophet



Wrestling exists in the eternal present. What is, has always been, and when it no longer is, it never was. It has no past and no future, and sometimes even today is in question. - Madame Manga
knightvibe
Salami








Since: 12.7.03
From: st louis, missouri

Since last post: 3539 days
Last activity: 3538 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.79
we saw an amazing hadicap tag match which saw HBK pin the new World Champion & and WTF ending that leaves us having no idea where it's going. And all everyone wants to do is complain. WEll the WWE has a story going here. I don't think Mick would even agree to do this if he didn't like the story. Plus, Austin has been reported to be very excited about the story he is coming back to and we all no how ficle he can be. Everyone tune in to RAW in 2 weeks and some things might appear clearer.



and thats all i have to say about that!
TheMASKEDComputerGeek
Chourico








Since: 7.1.02
From: Franklin, Wisconsin

Since last post: 47 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.36
I'm certain that this is where the Foley angle ends guys, with him walking away from a match with no explanation ever. Plus, anyone who argues that his aura has been diminished and that new fans will think he's a coward fail to realize there aren't many new fans that exist to realize that. I didn't believe in their long term booking but they're still trucking with the Jericho/Trish angle, so I'm not willing to shoot myself in the foot again. I'm happy, as I thought having the Orton/Foley match would be a waste a big time match on a throwaway episode of RAW before they come back in a couple weeks.



Caped Boy: Excuse me, ladies. You may remember me as the guy who came to dinner a few weeks ago with underwear on my head. My name is Keith Stat from Milbourne, New Jersey. State bird, the mosquito. And as you may have heard I am recently a crowned class B dungeon-master. So if any of you would like to play D&D today, please speak now or forever hold your peace.
[He chuckles, and there is an awkward silence at the table.]
Caped Boy: Anyone? Alexa!
[Alexa gives him a withering glare.]
Caped Boy: Maybe you would like to join in? We do need a druid, and you have definitely cast a level 5 charm spell on me.
Alexa: In your dreams, douche-bag!
Caped Boy: Douche-bags are hygienic products, I take that as a compliment. Thank you.
[Keith walks off]
Alexa: Ewww!


- Wet Hot American Summer
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 446 days
Last activity: 446 days
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.48
A few thoughts on this:

First the Tribute Video: You have Uncle Eric put together a Foley video tribute, and there is no WCW Cactus Jack stuff, or even ECW 'Forgive Me Uncle Eric' stuff? Why replay what we've seen 500 times when they could freshen it up a bit?
As for the (non)match: If they had given away Foley's return on free TV with no build-up, they would have actually proven they are dumber than even we have given them credit for. All you needed to know about how the main event would play out was the live event ticket sales flash they had about Rumble in Philly tickets going on sale. Hmm, Philly/Foley. Not like he has any history in that city.
Now, would it have made more sense for Foley to refuse Uncle Eric and get baited for a few weeks in order for him to snap and take the match? By far, yes. That would have had more emotional pull and built up the crowd more. But, since that's not convoluted enough for the writing team, they went the way they did.
madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2263 days
Last activity: 2255 days
AIM:  
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.25
I really don't get the negativity here. The writers did their jobs, and although I'm disappointed at the lack of a main event, I REFUSE to sign on to the doom & gloom scenarios I see presented here.

The promo between Foley and Michaels summed up last night's theme nicely: Wrestlers' passion for the business, and how it is similar to an addiction. Shawn Michaels came back for "one night only," and now he's a full-time wrestler, and seeking the World Title at that. Mick Foley might think that stepping into the ring "just this one time" won't hurt, but when he considers what his family had to endure, when he considers the tragic endings to the lives of wrestlers who hung around WAY TOO LONG after their primes, when he considers why he retired in the first place, he realizes that he JUST DOESN'T KNOW that he won't get "hooked" again. And this is where subtlety works best: Mick decides, in the face of taunts and disrespect, that he is loved for being a Hardcore Legend, but he wants to be loved and respected for his integrity, and sometimes being a bad ass pales in comparison to being a MAN.

And here's where Foley earns his keep as a top-level Sports Entertainer: In two weeks, Foley will cut a promo that makes you FEEL where he is coming from, and it will be so real that it'll make you regret having talked about him "tarnishing his legacy."

***
That said, I wasn't too keen on the show. Goldberg gone, but nobody new is stepping up. Evolution didn't even get to bask in the glow of being the dominant heel faction. Matt Hardy is still underutilized. The tag division has been squashed. The Women's division is irrelevant. It kinda looks like Henry-Booker isn't finished. I think the show is in a bit of shambles, and next week is the year in review, while the week after contains a pointless Board of Directors segment, where we get convinced that Austin will be returning to save us all...
ScreamingHeadGuy
Frankfurter








Since: 1.2.02
From: Appleton, WI

Since last post: 715 days
Last activity: 715 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.06
    Originally posted by LotusMegami
    I couldn't even read the Fashion Report this week - it reminded me too much of the pain I suffered during the show.


I didn't think the Fashion Report was THAT bad.



Fashion Reporter Extraordinaire

Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 24 days
Last activity: 9 hours
AIM:  
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Well, there's the problem:


    That said, I wasn't too keen on the show. Goldberg gone, but nobody new is stepping up. Evolution didn't even get to bask in the glow of being the dominant heel faction. Matt Hardy is still underutilized. The tag division has been squashed. The Women's division is irrelevant. It kinda looks like Henry-Booker isn't finished. I think the show is in a bit of shambles, and next week is the year in review, while the week after contains a pointless Board of Directors segment, where we get convinced that Austin will be returning to save us all...


All this subtlety and character nuances are going into Foley's character despite being a non-wrestler who is going to be around for only a few months, while everybody else on the active roster is being ignored. Maybe if they put the same effort into building up the guys who are going to be around instead of a guy who's maybe going to have 1 match and be done, Raw wouldn't be in the kind of shape it is in.



Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 17 hours
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.17
    Originally posted by madiq
    I really don't get the negativity here. The writers did their jobs, and although I'm disappointed at the lack of a main event, I REFUSE to sign on to the doom & gloom scenarios I see presented here.

    The promo between Foley and Michaels summed up last night's theme nicely: Wrestlers' passion for the business, and how it is similar to an addiction. Shawn Michaels came back for "one night only," and now he's a full-time wrestler, and seeking the World Title at that. Mick Foley might think that stepping into the ring "just this one time" won't hurt, but when he considers what his family had to endure, when he considers the tragic endings to the lives of wrestlers who hung around WAY TOO LONG after their primes, when he considers why he retired in the first place, he realizes that he JUST DOESN'T KNOW that he won't get "hooked" again. And this is where subtlety works best: Mick decides, in the face of taunts and disrespect, that he is loved for being a Hardcore Legend, but he wants to be loved and respected for his integrity, and sometimes being a bad ass pales in comparison to being a MAN.

    And here's where Foley earns his keep as a top-level Sports Entertainer: In two weeks, Foley will cut a promo that makes you FEEL where he is coming from, and it will be so real that it'll make you regret having talked about him "tarnishing his legacy.".


I completely agree with you. Foley's gonna come back and say something along the lines of "I'm a father. An author. A husband. That means more than being a wrestler." Notice the tribute tape; a lot of it was Mick getting the shit beaten out of him. Why should he come back to the cheers of fans who'd rather he take a beating (and create another "holy shit" moment) instead of dishing one out? Mick's character has no commanding reason to wrestle again.

I like how Foley's departure echoes his first leave when he decided to walk away following a conversation with Vince. It all makes Mick's character a more compelling creation: For all the posing and rhetoric in wrestling, here's a guy who's willing to throw up his hands and leave.

Unfortunately, there's only so many times you can do this with a character and this *is* Foley's second walk-off after he was 'retired' by Hunter. And he was feted in MSG a few months ago right before Orton chucked him down the stairs.

The only nag I have about the angle is that Orton's last shot at Foley was to call him a coward -- the same taunt used against Austin during his "physically provoked" subplot. The ending needed something fresher. Maybe it was a writer flub. Maybe it was Orton's.

But this is good, and I want to know what happens.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Barbwire Mike
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3266 days
Last activity: 3259 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.35
More than anything, what really upset me was having to watch all that awesome Foley footage with that uber-gay song playing over it. Say what you want about the writing staff or Mark Henry or Triple H winning the belt back... but Staind? They REALLY suck.



Lethalwrestling.com: If you don't read us, you're probably gay
OMEGA
Lap cheong








Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

Since last post: 1908 days
Last activity: 1876 days
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.10
People complaining should REALLY just let this storyline play out. Jumping all over an angle after it's very first night is ridiculous. You need to let them show you where it's going, first. Hey, I was upset a few weeks ago when they did the whole Jericho/Christian/Trish/Lita angle was all just a bet. But now that more time has passed, I'm more into the angle then ever. If this angle still sucks after a few weeks, then by all means complain. Until then, just cool down and see what happens.



The answer to WWE's financial problems...
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3229 days
Last activity: 3229 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
The whole thing looks like a redo of the angle they did with Foley before he retired. The loveable, family man, author Mick Foley was no match for Triple H and Foley knew it. So Foley summoned Cactus Jack to fight Triple H.

This just looks like Foley knowing that MICK FOLEY can't beat Randy Orton. Mick Foley doesn't stand a chance but Cactus Jack or even psycho Mankind might be able to.

If the purpose is to get Randy Orton over then this helps. What good what it have done for an out of shape Mick Foley to beat Randy Orton? None. What good what it have done for Randy Orton to beat an out of shape Mick Foley in a one-off RAW match? Very little.

To maximize Foley's rub in getting Orton to the next level, they have to make this match as important as possible. If that takes some storyline self-realization on Foley's part that he needs to get his ass in shape to take on Orton, then they went the right way.

This way Orton can berate Foley each and every week on TV and get heat. Foley's character is afraid of being sucked back into being an active wrestler but eventually he'll have to take that risk to try and shut Randy Orton up. Foley will lose in a blaze of glory and Orton will be elevated.

Sure it all really hurts and damages Mick Foley but Foley's always been willing to sacrifice himself for the good of someone else. You won't see him doing a winkwinknudgenudge job like Rock did for Hurricane and Goldberg.
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