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The W - Pro Wrestling - RAW 11/29/04 (Page 2)
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dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
Not having seen Raw yet (damn youse Europe!), but reading reports I was left with even more hatred for Randy Orton.
Instead of booking some sweet matches he opts to get some chicks in lingerie in the ring. Though I am a fan of chicks in lingerie I don't think that was needed..
Just shows what kinda idiot he is

For the other stuff, blaaah..2 lame finishes. Although it furthers storylines (Edge getting "screwed", Benoit looking strong) it imo undermines Jericho's GM shot next week.
I mean, his booking will have to be depending on some decision by whoknowswho (Vince?) and you know that will stretch until the main event slot of the show




*sigh* Why bother?
Phantom Lord
Salami








Since: 18.6.04
From: The Bensonhurst section of Brooklyn, NY

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.02
I thought RAW was pretty good tonight.

I knew the WWE would screw us out of seeing Triple H eliminated first.

When DAVE eliminated Flair, Flair's reaction was fucking priceless.

It sucks they went to the Luger/Hart finish for tonight.

Either they thought it would make for some drama or Triple H doesn't want to put anyone over cleanly since he met his quoata at WM20.

Nice to see the entire womens division in action tonight. I hope Victoria is picked for the next Playboy spread.

I was marking out for Flair/Lawler. It should of been given some more time. Still a good legends match. But damn it Lawler needs to bust out The Piledriver.

The Diva segement rated high on my SCHWING meter.

I personally picked Melina as my favorite tonight. Boots automatically make a chick hotter.

So Maven's a heel. Good for him.

So skipping to the end we have a double pin/tapout. They can do one of two things.

Have Benoit/Edge fight again with some sort of stipulation. Perhaps a ladder match

OR

They revert to the if its a draw the champion retains rule.

I wonder what one they will do next week.



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Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.26

Now I'm all for a Maven heel turn as I stated earlier in the thread, but wasn't he the one that booked Eugene into the tag title match just 2 short weeks ago. WWE must REALLY think we all have short attention spans now.





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OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09
Normally I'd be sure HHH would wind up getting the title given back next week but, for storyline purposes, isn't the decision Chris Jerichos? I can't see a face just sticking the belt back on Hunter.



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dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

Since last post: 25 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.15
    Originally posted by Mayhem

    Now I'm all for a Maven heel turn as I stated earlier in the thread, but wasn't he the one that booked Eugene into the tag title match just 2 short weeks ago. WWE must REALLY think we all have short attention spans now.


But that was before he blew 2 chances at becoming the Heavy weight Champ..or something like that..



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Wpob
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Since: 21.11.02
From: Williston Park, NY

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.05
I thoight RAW was awful but enough has been said about it in this thread that to add my two cents would be repetitive.

My bigger problem is with the booking of this Face Runs RAW angle. Wouldn;t you think that the four of them (Maven, Benoit, Orton and Jericho) would have gotten together prior to the first RAW and devised a plan to get the belt off of HHH? Kind of like the James Woods movie "Diggstown" where Bruce Dern had an actual plan to beat Lou Gossett?

It should have been like the following:

Opening to Week 1 - we see the Four talking saying here is the plan: this week, HHH is fighting Maven for the title in a 2 out of 3 pinfall no DQ match. Your job Maven is to beat him senseless. If you win, great, if not hurt him so we can get him next week. If you win, then Benoit gets a shot at you next week. If you lose, and we get the title off HHH in the next few weeks, one of us will give you a title match.

Opening to week 2 - HHH survives but now there is the 4 with part II of the plan. Benoit is going to go one on one with HHH in a cage. Again, same as last week but now, the stip is added that if there is any outside interference, HHH is stripped of the title and it is awarded to benoit. Again, win or lose, one of them gets a title shot next week.

Opening to week 3 - HHH agains survives but is hurt even more. Orton, knowing that he can not get the title, defers his GM privledges to Jericho. Jericho is booked in a Last Man Standing match vs. HHH. Again, if he wins, Orton gets a shot. if he loses, make sure he is hurt and a title shot will come IF they get the title off of him next week.

opening to week 4 - HHH barely survives and is shown in a obsene amount of pain. The 4 can not decide who gets the title shot since Orton can't compete for the title. But since it is Orton's night as GM, he books the following match: Orton vs. HHH non-title under the following stipulations:
1. if orton wins, the title is vacated and a Tournament for the title will begin next week with the finals at the next PPV.
2. if Orton loses, he will leave RAW for good and go to Smackdown.

if HHH refuses, then HHH will be in a gauntlet match vs maven, benoit and Jericho for the title.

HHH is more than willing to comply since he he can not lose the title tonight. After a hard fought match, HHH loses and the title is vacated. A tournament begins next week with the following contenders for the title: Orton, Jericho, Maven, benoit, Batista, HHH, Flair, Edge, Snitsky, Benjamin, Christian, Rosey, Hurricane, Rhyno, Tajiri and Eugene.

It would have given this angle a much more real feelign to it. They had a golden opportunity with this and they, once again, blew it.





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Since: 3.1.02

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
Actually, the only time something like this happened ie in a three way dance was Kane/Taker/Austin. Kane and Taker both pinned Austin at the same time. Both men were declared the winner even though it was a draw. The next night, the infamous zambonie/awards ceremony happened where Austin was declared not to be champion, so Taker and Kane had to fight for the belt. If you were to argue infront of a judge, there would be prescendence that HHH is no longer world champion. If they do put the belt on HHH as a draw, it would make no sense since in a draw you have two men who can either claim victory. HHH cannot claim victory since he was totally out of the equation, so that would leave the dispute between the two men who can reasonable claim victory which would be Benoit and Edge. So, to clear up the controversy the two winners of the match would have to fight for the belt.

As for the rest of the show, it was good, turning Maven heel was a good idea. He is doing ok and it gives someone else for Shelton to have matches for the IC belt since the main event is being clogged by everyone else. I also liked Jericho's bit with Trish, nice contiunity there. It should be an interesting Raw as long as they don't blow it by ignoring their own rules.



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Since: 17.11.03
From: Tallahassee, FL

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.52
    Originally posted by A Fan
    Actually, the only time something like this happened ie in a three way dance was Kane/Taker/Austin. Kane and Taker both pinned Austin at the same time. Both men were declared the winner even though it was a draw. The next night, the infamous zambonie/awards ceremony happened where Austin was declared not to be champion, so Taker and Kane had to fight for the belt. If you were to argue infront of a judge, there would be prescendence that HHH is no longer world champion.


OBJECTION!

Counsel would like to at this time present as further legal evidence the matter of 2001's Austin v Benoit v Jericho (on which I recently re-read the case file of) where Benoit AND Jericho had on a submission hold at the same time on Austin (a crossface/Walls combo), causing Austin to tap out to both guys. However, the match at that time was ordered to continue since there was no clear winner and Austin eventually won out, retaining his title.

Also, counsel puts forth the more recent legal precedent of Undertaker v Angle (2002) where Undertaker tapped out at the exact same instant that Angle's shoulders were counted out, with the decision being a draw with Taker retaining the title, with the submission and the pinfall cancelling each other out.

If you're going to figure this out based on precedent, the answer is probably somewhere in between these two cases. Which most likely means Trip will have his belt back at 9:05 pm Monday.



(edited by Blanket Jackson on 30.11.04 1126)

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A Fan
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Since: 3.1.02

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
I would to point out to the defense that in the case of Austin/Benoit/Jericho that since the match was allowed to restart it does validate the way that HHH/Edge/Benoit went down. Both men were declared the winner, but the single refree, if I remember correctly, made the decision to restart the match where in this case two refrees declared two different men the winner. Thus we have to consider the fact that each man has a right to the title while the refree decided the move Austin was in could not allow for a winner.

I would also like Taker/Angle throw in out since it was not a three way dance, but instead a one on one match. Thus, that ruling should null and void.



"All faith reguires is giving into the possibility of hope."
Pimpstress
Tocino








Since: 17.5.04
From: Philadelphia, PA

Since last post: 2570 days
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.69
I was pretty psyched to see Stevie Richards called out by Vince (even if it wasn't exactly in glowing terms) and then when he made it to the final 6. Damnit, I **would** like to see Stevie Richards as champ. Anyone but Trips.

As for the rest of RAW, to paraphrase Steve Austin from the ECW DVD (I've been watching waaaay too much of it) "If I could rustle up a clothes-pin for my nose, maybe I'll try watching it again next week." By and large, RAW stunk. Vince coming out and turning into the Grinch That Stole HHH Out Of The Rumble sucked, as much as I like seeing Vince on the tube every so often. That just was a let-down for just about everyone.

Jim Ross needs to GO. Week after week he keeps referring to Edge as Chris Jericho. "J.R." should stand for "Just Remind me." Again, Lawler was trying to make the save and saying "Edge" immediately following good ol' J.R.'s reference to Adam Copeland as Chris Jericho.

Another thing that ran through my head during the 2 hours was that 10 actual wrestlers and half of the women's division were dropped from the roster, yet they managed to bring in the diva rejects and random floozes for the "Lingerie Fashion Show." Whoopedy-doo. I speak for many guys I know watching RAW that aren't phased by the bra and panty fiesta that has lately become a staple of the broadcast. Big deal. If you want t&a with more pay off, flip to the Playboy Channel or the Spice Network and you'll actually see some real boobage and even a shot of some beaver.

I'd also like to add that if it were not for the bra marking where her boobs **might** be, Stacey Keibler has the body of a small, Ethiopian boy. Her mom must be so proud. **rolls eyes** There was much more erotic tension stemming from the hole in Victoria's pants during the women's tag match (4 girls does not a division make). Because it wasn't PLANNED. Planned like every freakin' week some new skank is shoved down everyone's throats. Damn, I thought this Diva Contest shit was over!?

And Snitsky... Wherefore art thou Snitsky? I've counted on him to add some sort of humor to RAW every week. There is a serious lack of anything even remotely funny on RAW. It's drier than my leftover Thanksgiving turkey.

Okay, there **was** one thing that was funny last night. Ric Flair's reaction to DAVE Batista throwing him over the top rope. Flair going nuts outside the ring and grabbing random fans was hilarious! You could really see that the fans who got grabbed were loving it and had huge, shit-eating grins on their faces. I know I would.

And Val Venis? What's up with the hair - or lack thereof? Hasn't the WWE fulfilled their quota for bald wrestlers for this year?

And finally, if the morale of the fans wasn't squished enough, the half-assed finish leaving it up in the air at the end of the broadcast. $10 and my left nut (okay, don't have one, but how many times do you get to quote "Planes, Trains and Automobiles?") says they put the belt back on HHH by the end of next week's RAW.


(edited by Pimpstress on 30.11.04 0846)
FurryHippie
Frankfurter








Since: 29.10.02
From: New York

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.29
    Originally posted by Pimpstress
    Jim Ross needs to GO. Week after week he keeps referring to Edge as Chris Jericho. "J.R." should stand for "Just Remind me." Again, Lawler was trying to make the save and saying "Edge" immediately following good ol' J.R.'s reference to Adam Copeland as Chris Jericho.

    Another thing that ran through my head during the 2 hours was that 10 actual wrestlers and half of the women's division were dropped from the roster, yet they managed to bring in the diva rejects and random floozes for the "Lingerie Fashion Show." Whoopedy-doo.

    I'd also like to add that if it were not for the bra marking where her boobs **might** be, Stacey Keibler has the body of a small, Ethiopian boy.


I LOVE YOU. I started to feel like I was the only one who thought that, while pretty, Stacey Keibler is morbidly skinny. Her legs are long, so what? They're two sticks. She might have a nice little rump, but by GOD put on 20 pounds, at LEAST. She really does resemble the body of a 12 year old boy, very undeveloped looking.

I don't complain about the WWE's moves much, but this thing with the divas pisses me off. It was bearable before, but the fact that they BLATANTLY fired TALENT just so they could bring in 6 or 7 new skanks to waste time, it's a slap in the face to wrestling, and to those who worked hard to build a name for themselves in the business. And then were dropped for whores. I fully realized this new strategy by WWE when they showed them signing the bras to make some money. In WWE's mind: How to cut costs = cut talented people who actually wrestle. How to create profit = hire hoes for cheaper and sell their bras on wwe.com.

I hate JR. He calls everybody Jericho, and the worst thing is he doesn't correct it. He says "Jericho beat Jericho" and "Jericho" instead of Edge, then you hear this silence for 3-4 seconds when you KNOW he's thinking about it. Then he just continues his call. JR, just fucking correct yourself. He thinks we'll think lesser of him if he admits an actual mistake.

And about the Maven logic complaint, sometimes people complain about booking when it's actually done right, and they just don't understand it. Maven was thrown out of the battle royal when he turned his back to Eugene. It would piss me off too if a retard threw me out of a battle royal. Well Maven takes that a step further with his beatdown. It doesn't matter that he was "friendly" with Eugene two weeks ago. That was before the issue arose (and yes, before Maven's frustration at not winning the title and getting smashed by Snitsky).
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 4 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.26
    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    And about the Maven logic complaint, sometimes people complain about booking when it's actually done right, and they just don't understand it. Maven was thrown out of the battle royal when he turned his back to Eugene. It would piss me off too if a retard threw me out of a battle royal.


And if I remember correctly, Maven snubbed him when he walked by. Either shrugging him off or moving him aside with disdain. Eugene reacted to that. Clearly Maven has become a diva after adopting the Little Richard technique of eyebrow creation.



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Since: 26.1.03
From: Naples, FL

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.87
    Originally posted by jwrestle
      Originally posted by geemoney
      RAW Thoughts:

      The opening with McMahon made NO sense.


    Actually it did because from what is said in the Edge/Spoiler thread dear Randal F*CKED up last week.

Okay, but in storyline terms, it STILL doesn't make sense, which is what my point was.



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Since: 22.11.03
From: Blackpool, England

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#34 Posted on
    Originally posted by dMp
    Not having seen Raw yet (damn youse Europe!), but reading reports I was left with even more hatred for Randy Orton.
    Instead of booking some sweet matches he opts to get some chicks in lingerie in the ring. Though I am a fan of chicks in lingerie I don't think that was needed..
    Just shows what kinda idiot he is

    For the other stuff, blaaah..2 lame finishes. Although it furthers storylines (Edge getting "screwed", Benoit looking strong) it imo undermines Jericho's GM shot next week.
    I mean, his booking will have to be depending on some decision by whoknowswho (Vince?) and you know that will stretch until the main event slot of the show





This 'Whose the champion' lark is irritating. I mean is the title on hold or do we have twin champions !

Sky is apparantly going to be showing Raw live come January, so maybe Holland and the rest of Europe may follow suit.



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Since: 17.3.02

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
As far as the finish: odds are that HHH will retain and face Jericho, while Edge and Benoit will have a match the next week to determine a #1 Contender at the PPV.
Hokienautic
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

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#36 Posted on
Last night's main event finish made me think of something ... has there ever been a similar finish in a triple threat elimination match?

Just seemed to be it'd be a cool "heel" way to retain your title when you're knocked out outside the ring for the two men inside the ring to engage in a double pin. A eliminates B and B eliminates A, leaving C as the champ.

Has that ever been done before? If not, might be a fun twist on the standard ending. If the belt ends up back on HHH next week, I'd even say it woulda been a cool way to end Raw last night instead.
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.54
I don't know if there has been on like this, but I do contend that the Taker/Kane/Austin is almost the same thing in which the holder of the title is eleminated due to not being declared the winner where as Taker/Kane were both declared winners. The other example is Austin/Beniot/Jericho were Austin tapped out to a combo move that the refree could not award a victory to either man, so they restarted the match. I just think the prescendent has been set that if the title winner is not declared the winner by an offical then he has no legitimate rights to said championship.

However, I do think they will call it a draw though and give it to HHH via once again of Vince using his power even though the GMs are supposed to have the power for a month. I cannot see Orton or Jericho being nice guys considering Orton's stip of the belt and Jericho's infamous six minute title win which never happened. God, if they have Jericho strip HHH like HHH stripped him, that will be the ultimate justice. But, I do agree with you, if they say the champ can no win via a double pin or KO then its the ultimate heel victory.



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BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.01
Am I the only one that LOVED the finish to that title match (and, by extension, the battle royal)? They're putting so much heat on the "Edge gets screwed angle" that it's actually making me like his character and root for him. Now if they just give HHH the title, and he holds it until Mania, this angle will suck big time. But for now, I love it.

The crowd is going HOSS for Big Dave. Deservedly so, in my opinion.

Flair, in his mannerisms, is still THE MAN.

I always like Battle Royals, and I really thought that this one was a fun opener.

Y2J 420
Italian
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Since: 2.12.03
From: Illinois

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.36
This was not an elimination triple threat match (that's a triangle match)...

It would have been great it if it was Jericho vs. Edge vs. Triple H and the same ending occurred because then Jericho could be GM next week and slap Edge in the face as he declares himself the winner...



OverpusHHHed...Patterson was right...

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Since: 18.6.04
From: The Bensonhurst section of Brooklyn, NY

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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.02
Snitsky vs. DAVE got the crowd to pop the same way they did when DAVE and Kane stared each other down in the last battle royal on RAW.

The money main event for WM 21 might just be DAVE vs. Triple H.

They really are building up to DAVE just clotheslining the living fuck out of Triple H one night.



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