So there you go. It's all happening. Punk vs. Lesnar and Bryan vs. Cena will headline SummerSlam. The summer booking continues to be dictated by (or onto) the kewl crowd cities, with the unique choice to let the Brooklyn fans spontaneous-ishly choose Daniel Bryan. Or maybe the crowd had already heard it was the plan last month from "rajah.com" or some shit so they knew their lines.
Pretty silly that Cena could've picked Del Rio but that ship sailed a long time ago. If Ryder hadn't been too spirit-broken to rally the Ryder Army, WWE would've been FORCED to give the Woo Woo Woo Kid the SummerSlam main event.
It seems like there's going to be some crossover between the SummerSlam title match and Total Divas, and if that's the case I say ....... 10-year renewal for Total Divas! They're gonna have to keep an eye on that Eva Marie.
Punk and Heyman and Brock is a real saga. Emotions! Punk in the jumper looked out of place next to THE BEAST INCARNATE, but the crowd was with him in a big way. I saw Brock have a great match with a 5'6 Eddie Guerrero so it's an easy match to work, the same way they did it tonight. Punk gets thrown around but keeps coming back.
RIP Ziggler Family. You'd only just begun. 7 months must be double the length of any previous AJ relationship. Another quality Dolph/ADR match. But I still have to wonder who Del Rio is going to wrestle now. RVD?
Speaking of quality matches and RVD, there was a stretch in 2001 where Jericho and Van Dam wrestled like every week, and this harkened back to that. They old as hell now but they still know how to do it. I wonder if Van Dam's per match fines for everything he doesn't remember he's not allowed to do were written into his downside.
The stretch of "we'll finally let you cheer them" turns continue as Mark Henry gets laid out by the Shield. It'd be funny if the SummerSlam match was Shield vs. Sheamus & Orton & Henry with the two faces being skeptical about trusting their large partner. Orton with the briefcase adds a new dimension to a guy who hasn't really had anything to do in almost two years except "have good TV matches with midcard heels and think of new ways to do the middle rope DDT."
I approve of the Usos getting a "plucked from obscurity, rewarded for hard work" push a la the Hardy Boys in 1999.
R-Truth has had some rough times so I was like "oh that's nice, Truth gets to come back and sing his song, and, hey, some interesting hair choices." But it was not so.
I hope the big heat angle for Sandow vs. Rhodes is Damo shaving Cody's moustache.
So... CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar Daniel Bryan vs. John Cena Alberto Del Rio vs. ____ Dolph Ziggler vs. Big E Mark Henry & ____ vs. The Shield Kane vs. Bray Wyatt Cody Rhodes vs. Damien Sandow
Not bad. Even if they rush through the midcard matches like they do at every SummerSlam, you can't go wrong because of the top 2.
No time to do a full recap, but I can get this started. (EDIT: Looks like I lost by exactly a minute and a half. Damn you, Shapiro!)
Brad Maddox is out to proclaim the Maddox Era. He books Del Rio/Ziggler and Jericho/RVD, and gives Cena the choice of his opponent at Summerslam. Orton comes out to remind Cena that he can strike from anywhere, but Fandango interrupts because he wants Cena to pick him . Orton and Fandango go at it, so we get the match.
Randy Orton beat Fandango with the RKO. I think the crowd were chanting "overrated" at them during the match. Not sure.
Mark Henry is out to tell us that he took Cena to the limit and he'll do it again. Was that supposed to be a turn? The crowd chant "you tapped out" at him, so he shuts them up by reminding them that he could tap out every last one of them. Oh, Mark, you are so great. The Shield attack to really cement that turn, and lay him out with the triple powerbomb.
ADR beat Dolph Ziggler by Kicking His Fucking Head In. AJ at ringside provided the distraction by ringing the bell, and Del Rio KHFHI. Ziggler took that kick in the back of the head, too. Looked brutal. The match was the same quality as they delivered last night. Postmatch, we get the full turn as Big E wipes out Ziggler with the Big Ending.
R-Truth gets a long entrance only to be attacked by the Wyatt Family. Mask Wyatt and Bald Spot Wyatt take out Truth long enough for Bray to cut a scintillating, deranged promo, but then Truth comes back with a chair. Bray taunts him, and his fearlessness distracts Truth, so Bray crushes him in the corner and the Wyatts beat his ass. Sister Abigail (the move) makes its first appearance on Raw.
The Usos beat The Real Americans when Jay Uso rolled up Cesaro. The Usos were in the match as they won a WWE App poll over Tons of Funk and the PrimeTime Players. Short match, but nothing offensive. I wouldn't mind a longer match between the two teams.
Christian beat Damien Sandow by rollup. Sandow was looking for the ELBOW OF DISDAIN~, but Christian rolled him up. Christian took a pretty sick rib-first tumble off the turnbuckle at one point. Post match, Cody Rhodes unleashed some righteous ass-kicking on Sandow to a thunderous response.
I have no idea what the endgame for these 1-800-FELLA commercials is.
Naomi the Funkadactyl beat Brie Bella via flying crossbody. You could predict the result because the Bellas weren't dressed identically, so no chance of Twin Magic, which is the only way the Bellas have won in forever. The match wasn't as good as a tag match these two teams had against each other a couple of months ago, but it wasn't very long, either. The crowd was singing the "ole" song for the latter half of the match.
CM Punk calls out Paul Heyman and Brock Lesnar, but only Heyman answers for now. Heyman takes half-credit for all of Punk's achievements and tells him that he can't be the best in the world without Heyman. Since Punk failed to beat Taker at Mania, Punk failed "US." Now Punk thinks he's better than Heyman. So Heyman played Punk like a little puppet, so history can always remember that Heyman dumped Punk and not the other way around. Punk wanted to get personal? This is as personal as it gets. Punk has no family, all he has are the fans. Punk took away Paul's best friend, Paul will take away Punk's chance at a world title. And now the harshest truth of all - Paul knew he could play Punk because he knew that in the end, Punk can't beat Lesnar.
"Are you done?" Punk has 13 staples to show for his faith in Heyman. Punk is relentless in his pursuit of what he wants, and he won't stop until he gets it. What does Punk want? He wants Heyman. He promises on Paul's children that he's going to get Paul. Anyone who gets in the way will get hurt. Paul is unphased, because he's seen Punk's immediate future. "It's clobbering time!" And here comes the pain!
Punk, already hobbled from yesterday, is no match for Brock, but keeps coming at him like a deranged little maniac who doesn't know what's good for him. Brock catches him and F5's him onto the announce table, though. That puts a stop to Punk. That entire segment was UTTERLY FANTASTIC. Go track it down, now.
Rob Van Dam beat Chris Jericho via ***** Frog Splash. Fun, long match that this crowd greatly appreciated. We had multiple "this is awesome" chants, and for the most part the match was pretty awesome. There were some timing issues, and the first part of the match was very slow, but it picked up, and became PPV-quality by the time the finish rolled around. Despite looking gassed, Van Dam got an amazing amount of air on the Five-Star at the end. Great stuff.
John Cena is out to pick his opponent. He wants the crowd to have an opinion, and they respond in a resounding chorus of 'YES!' The entire roster is out at the entrance, and Cena takes the time to run through some names as potential contenders to gauge the reaction. Sheamus gets booed. Orton, Jericho, and Van Dam get some cheers, but there is only one choice - Daniel Bryan! The place goes berserk. Bryan YESes all the way to the ring and right into Cena's face. He leads the crowd in a chorus of 'YES' as the show ends.
I find it interesting how similar the CM Punk/Paul Heyman and Dolph Ziggler/AJ stories are. Emotions! (TM Justin Shapiro.) Both Punk and Ziggler had come back from being off TV as changed men. Punk and Ziggler both rejected their significant others (best friend/girlfriend who had/have both publicly declared they loved them) from being at ringside or giving them the support they'd become accustomed to giving. In Heyman's case, his turn was pre-meditated. In AJ's, she never had any intention to turn on Ziggler; she made a mistake and Dolph dropped her like a bad habit. And since neither AJ or Heyman can actually wrestle, Dolph or Punk, Big E. and Brock Lesnar step in to do the physical work. Because they're each TRUE FRIENDS who are LOYAL to AJ and Heyman.
And at Summerslam, I'm rooting for Big E. and for Brock. Because I actually think Dolph and Punk are in the wrong here. (Dolph more than Punk.) Dolph knew what he signed on for with AJ; she never deceived or manipulated him or pretended to be anyone she wasn't. She made a big dumb mistake that cost Dolph the match at MITB, but Dolph dumped her for making a mistake? He's the bad guy here, not her. And I'm a big Big E. fan. I'd like to see him get a big win over Ziggler, unlikely as that may be.
As for Punk, this is more straightforward as Heyman clearly "turned" on Punk in pro-wrestling fashion, but Heyman makes some salient points about Punk being a bit of an ingrate. In any case, I hope Brock murderizes Punk. In an unrelated note, I would like for the F5 to finally be officially renamed as the Jimmy Johns Combo #5. (aka. the Vito. (jimmyjohns.com))
(edited by John Orquiola on 15.7.13 2203) "Cody, I mustache you a question." - The Miz
Great to see that Cena/Bryan and Punk/Lesnar will in fact happen at SummerSlam.
I enjoyed JBL showing his Genre Savvy by moving his hat off the table the moment Lesnar starts to step over there.
The Punk/Heyman/Lesnar segment was brilliant.
AJ kissing Ziggler while he was down was hilarious. But y'know, she herself could have beaten him up if she'd grabbed the bell or a chair, and that'd have been cool. 'Spose they had to involve Langston, though.
So, the Wyatts can beat on R-Truth all they want, but Cody can barely touch Sandow before referees break it up. Got it.
Surprised to see Sandow job to Christian the night after winning the briefcase. And before Cody even got involved!
RVD/Jericho was fun.
"I'm sorry, I'm not much of a hugger." "Not yet you're not." --Randy Orton and Daniel Bryan, SmackDown 1/18/13
Certified RFMC Member-- Ask To See My Credentials!
Co-Winner of Time's Person of the Year Award, 2006
Originally posted by Me in this threadI'm willing to offer the benefit of the doubt and see what the plan is after Raw...
And man, am I glad I did! Everything just kinda came together tonight.
I was ready for Cena/Bryan to headline Summerslam, but I can't describe how much more excited I am for it now. Suddenly, that Orton win on Sunday makes a lot more sense, because let's just say, for the sake of argument that somehow, some way, Bryan actually pulls off the win and actually wins the title? How awesome a moment is that going to be and how UTTERLY CRUSHING is it going to be if Orton cashes in the briefcase a minute later? It'd be so deliciously brilliant to give everyone the wonderful taste of "Daniel Bryan: WWE Champion," only to suddenly create a superstar heel champion in Orton and...AAAAHGLIJADFAJSDF SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!
Brock/Punk is going to be unspeakably fun! The promos leading up to this are going to be gold, if tonight's any indicator. This may have been Punk's best promo since the 2011 Pipe Bomb.
It's both amazing and frustrating to witness how fantastic Rob Van Dam can be when he's motivated. I'm going to enjoy this while I can, because it's not going to be pretty when Van Dam inevitably starts phoning in his matches again.
Very nice recovery for the Wyatt Family after last week's bit of messiness. Bray's just gold on the mic. We may have a modern-day Raven on our hands here.
You know it's a great Raw when even the Divas match proves to be entertaining. They have a real talent on their hands with Naomi.
I'm going to SummerSlam this year, so I'm pretty excited that the top two matches are pretty much the ideal way I would go booking-wise. Punk/Lesnar was intense and as good as WWE has been story telling wise for a while. I think that'll be a great match and Punk and Lesnar will bring it.
Originally posted by John OrquiolaAs for Punk, this is more straightforward as Heyman clearly "turned" on Punk in pro-wrestling fashion, but Heyman makes some salient points about Punk being a bit of an ingrate. In any case, I hope Brock murderizes Punk. In an unrelated note, I would like for the F5 to finally be officially renamed as the Jimmy Johns Combo #5. (aka. the Vito. (jimmyjohns.com))
I really want that finisher name change to happen. Brock isn't getting enough out of his endorsement deals. Even though I don't really want to see Brock win the WWE Title, being a part time star and all, I do want to see him put the Jimmy Johns logos as side plates.
One of the things I like about Punk/Heyman is that it is more about how the characters grew apart, rather than being a clear cut "good guy vs bad guy" feud. Yeah, Heyman is the villain, but I can understand both of their motivations, and I side with Punk a little more because he stuck with Heyman out of loyalty.
Personally, I'm pulling for Punk here since it's likely that Brock will just disappear after this match for a while and I'd rather see Brock move on to someone else than have yet another WrestleMania rematch. If he's only going to wrestle 3-4 times a year, there should be more variety of opponents. Plus, Punk really hasn't had any big wins this year. Jericho doesn't count. Even Ryback can beat Jericho.
Dolph knew what he signed on for with AJ; she never deceived or manipulated him or pretended to be anyone she wasn't. She made a big dumb mistake that cost Dolph the match at MITB, but Dolph dumped her for making a mistake? He's the bad guy here, not her.
I gotta disagree. Seeing as how Dolph wanted to face Del Rio alone and didn't want any distractions with Langston or Aj being out during his MITB title match yet she showed up anyway. Then got involved yet he clearly was yelling at her not too. Also she was too immature to take a break up. Dolph politely tells her it's over between them so she interferes in his second title match which costs him.
If you broke up with your girlfriend and she came into your job, jeopardized your standing in the company, and violently started attacking you when you haven't provoked her then suddenly her giant male friend slams into you from behind would you just say "Oh, well I deserved this ass whuppin for wanting to move on from her"?
Dolph's character doesn't strike me as a guy that gets hung up on putting a girlfriend before his career advancement. He definitely seems like a guy who would use a woman for his personal benefit until she got in his way, guys like that usually move from woman to woman quite easily for little reason. He still doesn't deserve what he got tonight and Aj is in the wrong.
If I ever see Paul Heyman walk into a room with me points to me and yells "It's clobberin' time!!" and Brock's music hits, tell my mom I died fighting vainly but awesomely. I'm so hyped for Summerslam. That segment between CM Punk and Heyman was major movie acting. I loved it immensely.
Great show tonight! New york sure loves trolling Orton. Bring on the Summer of Yes!
Originally posted by CruelAngel777Dolph politely tells her it's over between them
Well, I wouldn't say 'politely'.
He definitely seems like a guy who would use a woman for his personal benefit until she got in his way, guys like that usually move from woman to woman quite easily for little reason. He still doesn't deserve what he got tonight and Aj is in the wrong.
I agree, but Dolph deserved some form of payback for being such a manipulative evil uncaring user.
Maybe just a kick to the balls from AJ?
(edited by CRZ on 16.7.13 1057)
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - Winston Churchill
Number one with a bullet on "visible positive changes that can be seen to be HHH's doing": debuting (or repackaging) of new talent. Axel, Shield, the Wyatts, Big E., Sandow, have all greatly benefited from groundwork laid prior to their debut, and with the possible exception of Sandow they've all been booked well in the immediate aftermath of their arrivals. In terms of blooding new talent they're on a roll like never before.
This was a stellar show, by the way. Best of the year, easily.
Even if Dolph WAS in the right to dump A.J., history has proven how she'll react to actual rejection, perceived rejection, or being ignored for one second longer than she deems appropriate. In other words, he probably should have seen the aftermath coming.
Why does Wyatt light and extinguish the lantern twice? I hope they name his finisher The Baptism.
I thought RVD and Jericho was a bunch of kicky-kicky but I got into it the longer it went on. And that was a sky-high Five-Star with a credible, crushing splash.
Cena is just not good at improvising when the crowd is ahead of his script. They chanted for Brock before Lesnar attacked Cena after Mania, and they demanded Bryan before Cena was ready to pull the trigger.
Speaking of Cena and the crowd, I loved it when Henry admitting he tapped out and turning it onto the audience by saying he make all of them tap out too. And then he got Shielded, and Taker/Henry vs. the Shield at SummerSlam -- FOR REVENGANCE-- could be a lot of fun.
Big E wins me over by doing everything just right. He doesn't overplay his role as the monster muscle, and he leans nicely into his moves. I was thinking Vickie could be the one to work with Del Rio (and she still could), but he might finally get his proper main-event heel heat if he courted AJ.
"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Wyatt's finisher is called Sister Abigail. A much cooler, weirder, WTF name.
EDIT: Everyone IDs Waylon Mercy/Max Cady as the Wyatt antecedent, but for me the obvious influence is Robert Mitchum's Harry Powell from NIGHT OF THE HUNTER. A twisted, vicious preacher figure from the deep-fried South, surrounded by father/child imagery.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroSo there you go. It's all happening. Punk vs. Lesnar and Bryan vs. Cena will headline SummerSlam. The summer booking continues to be dictated by (or onto) the kewl crowd cities, with the unique choice to let the Brooklyn fans spontaneous-ishly choose Daniel Bryan.
It was a little weird that they sent each of their other potential main eventers out there to get booed by the crowd. It worked because it built the frenzy up for Bryan's appearance, but still, not the kind of thing I'd expect them to do considering the lengths they've gone to in order to protect guys like Sheamus against hostile crowds.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroPunk and Heyman and Brock is a real saga. Emotions! Punk in the jumper looked out of place next to THE BEAST INCARNATE, but the crowd was with him in a big way. I saw Brock have a great match with a 5'6 Eddie Guerrero so it's an easy match to work, the same way they did it tonight. Punk gets thrown around but keeps coming back.
Loved how that played out. Punk looks like a normal guy compared to Brock, which is what you want, and there's the great intersection of how Brock always looks like he may be legit hurting people and Punk always manages to make it look like he might be getting legit hurt. Punk was especially red-in-the-face during the brawl, so I think we get maximum Battle Damage effects in the match, which always helps.
Great work selling Heyman's turn, too. CRZ expressed reservations about what Heyman's motivations were going to be, and I was in agreement, remembering Heyman explaining all those years ago that he turned on Brock to side with the Big Show because Brock couldn't beat the Big Show even though it was Heyman who helped Big Show beat Brock, and was worried about similar tossed-off non-explanations. But that was a perfectly rational argument, and the build-up here is in fine form unlike the weird derailments Punk/Jericho and Punk/UT had to work around. And we still haven't even gotten to the inevitable amazing segment where Punk goes off on Brock while Brock laughs it off until he slowly gets pissed.
One thing this show reconfirmed for me: Brock Lesnar vs. Daniel Bryan at Wrestlemania XXX needs to happen. I can't imagine a better build-up and payoff for a WM match than that right now.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroBut I still have to wonder who Del Rio is going to wrestle now. RVD?
Based on essentially nothing but singlets, I was assuming an RVD/Ryback feud would be next. They wouldn't do Del Rio vs. Sheamus or Show again, would they? Christian vs. Del Rio would keep the good match streak intact at the top of the card and has history, plus Christian looks like he's here to lose and doesn't seem to be in Ambrose/Shield orbit anymore.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroThe stretch of "we'll finally let you cheer them" turns continue as Mark Henry gets laid out by the Shield. It'd be funny if the SummerSlam match was Shield vs. Sheamus & Orton & Henry with the two faces being skeptical about trusting their large partner.
Shield vs. Sheamus/Orton/Henry was the Wrestlemania match I wanted, but it lost it's luster for me now that The Shield has been beaten instead of having the Hall of Pain be the only thing to stop the Hounds of Justice.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroR-Truth has had some rough times so I was like "oh that's nice, Truth gets to come back and sing his song, and, hey, some interesting hair choices."
WHAT'S UP? = Truth's hairline.
Kinda thought they were going to go with Wyatt actually letting Truth hit him there and Truth being awed by the Eater of Worlds and joining the Family. On the one hand, as great as Crazy Truth was, he would be too much for the Wyatts, but on the other, Truth has proven himself talented enough that I think he could probably come up with a different variation of Crazy Truth that might have worked.
My dream feud for the Wyatt Family continues to be Cody Rhodes vs. the Wyatts post-Summerslam. My way to get there would still be the Wyatts taking Kaitlyn in and Cody (and a reluctant, guilt-stricken Big E.) having to fight to save her, but I don't really care how you get there as long as it's Cody having to go through the family to get to Bray Wyatt, who is essentially Evil Satanic Dusty Rhodes.
Originally posted by JustinShapiro CM Punk vs. Brock Lesnar Daniel Bryan vs. John Cena Alberto Del Rio vs. ____ Dolph Ziggler vs. Big E Mark Henry & ____ vs. The Shield Kane vs. Bray Wyatt Cody Rhodes vs. Damien Sandow
Any chance it could be Henry/Usos vs. Shield? Just to see Henry's reaction to the Uso's entrance. I don't care who he partners with, though, just as long as I get to see Ambrose sell a World's Strongest Slam by doing one of those "Jerry puts a mousetrap on Tom's tail" back sells.
That would still leave Orton and Sheamus out there, to either do a three-way match vs. Del Rio or fight each other. Or The Real Americans I guess. The latter two would make Del Rio vs. Christian possible, though I suppose they could suddenly remember that Christian vs. Ambrose was was supposed to be a thing and it becomes Shield vs. Henry/Ambrose/...I don't know, let's say Rob Van Dam?
Eh, I don't know, this is still leaving out Miz, Axel and Ryback, isn't it? Free PPV Pre-Match?
Originally posted by Amos CochranNumber one with a bullet on "visible positive changes that can be seen to be HHH's doing": debuting (or repackaging) of new talent. Axel, Shield, the Wyatts, Big E., Sandow, have all greatly benefited from groundwork laid prior to their debut, and with the possible exception of Sandow they've all been booked well in the immediate aftermath of their arrivals. In terms of blooding new talent they're on a roll like never before.
I'll give them points for Sandow, too, since the only thing they needed to do with Sandow is give him a mic, and they did that enough to let him get the act over plent. Langston is the one I think they almost fumbled early on, but he probably can't hit his real stride until he turns and gets to show his personality.
Summerslam has a chance of being the first pay-per-view I purchase since WrestleMania 20. I want Cena and Bryan to sell the angle a bit more, but that will be a fantastic match. The rest of the card looks pretty stellar as well.
I'm ambivalent about RVD's return. He looked decent last night, but (and I know this is my own fault and not fair at all) I've been watching old ECW matches recently, and no surprise, RVD from almost 20 years ago is just a little bit better in the ring. It might be about time for him to hang it up, honestly.
I had a few reservations about Mark Henry turning, but now that I think about it, I'm sure it can work. The key is to do an Orton sort of turn - you don't change the essentials of his characters. He just beats the shit out of heels, in this case the Shield, instead of faces. He cannot become a baby-kissing, all-around good guy, and as long as Mark follows that path, he should be okay.
I would love the Usos/Henry v Shield match. The Usos are fun to watch, and of late they've even been getting a reaction out of the crowd for their ridiculous "when we say Us, y'all say Oh" entrance. A long, prominent feud with the Shield can only do them a world of good.
For me, Bray Wyatt is exactly what I would imagine the current iteration of Shinsuke Nakamura's character to be, if I could understand what he's saying. The deranged, unhinged, psychopath hobo visual is the same, even if Bray's a little creepier. Now if Wyatt has wrestling skills to match those of Nakamura, then we're all winners.
As clumsy as the whole bit with Cena running through the list of potential challengers was, the crowd cheers, Daniel Bryan's entrance, and the insane reaction he got was one of those thrilling, happy, cathartic moments that makes pro wrestling one of my favorite forms of entertainment.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroSo there you go. It's all happening. Punk vs. Lesnar and Bryan vs. Cena will headline SummerSlam. The summer booking continues to be dictated by (or onto) the kewl crowd cities, with the unique choice to let the Brooklyn fans spontaneous-ishly choose Daniel Bryan. Or maybe the crowd had already heard it was the plan last month from "rajah.com" or some shit so they knew their lines.
I thought the last segment was scripted to encourage the crowd to chant "NO! NO! NO!" at every name other than Daniel Bryan, but the crowd didn't pick up on that part.
Maybe it's the timing, but the Wyatt Family went from cool new gimmick to SUPER RACIST over the course of that segment. Not surprising, but there it is.
I normally don't like The Big Ending, but Ziggler made it look good. Any chance they make Ziggler face Del Rio and Big E for the World Title at Summerslam?
Man, L.A. wrestling fans are in for a good August: PWG Tenth Anniversary, Summerslam, and two nights of the PWG Battle of Los Angeles.
(edited by SchippeWreck on 16.7.13 0852) "It's magic! We don't need to explain it!"
North Aermica? Shawn may not even be the best wrstelr in the WWE (though with the passing of Eddie Guerrero that honor is up for grabs). I gues it all boils down to opinion and style. Michaels amtches really do nothign for me these days.