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The W - Pro Wrestling - Raw #1011 10-8-12 (Page 4)
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CRZ
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#61 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
    Originally posted by jon jones
    I don't get how you guys can claim to be wrestling fans and complain so much.
...but then you wrote another 500 words, so maybe you get it a LITTLE bit.



jon jones
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#62 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.19
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by jon jones
      I don't get how you guys can claim to be wrestling fans and complain so much.
    ...but then you wrote another 500 words, so maybe you get it a LITTLE bit.


I didn't complain about the wrestling though....

And to that other guy, I wish RAW were 24 hours long. It would give me a day where I can turn on the TV and always have something on.

Damien Sandow is a great wrestler. If I knew he had an 18 min match, I'd watch it.

And it doesn't really affect me if someone loses a lot. I know Dolph Ziggler loses a lot, and I'm always hoping he'll win, but I'll still always watch his matches because he's a GREAT wrestler. The same with Cody Rhodes. I don't even know if he loses a lot, I assume he does, but I know if he's on, then I'll be in for a good match. Chris Jericho is one of my favorite wrestlers, and I'm very disappointed that he loses all the time, but that doesn't stop me from watching his matches, HOPING he'll be able to win.

I'd easily trade a good long term plan for a 10 minute match RIGHT NOW. Because then I get to watch the match RIGHT NOW. I watch wrestling to see a fight, not a soap opera. And if the soap opera is actually good, then it's a bonus. But I know which wrestlers are going to give me a quality fight, regardless of all the other bullshit going on.
Tenken347
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#63 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.17
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      Originally posted by jon jones
      I don't get how you guys can claim to be wrestling fans and complain so much. How can you complain about getting more wrestling? RAW expanding to 3 hours was the best. The matches get more time, and it increases my chances that I'm going to be able to catch it.


    Well then, let's just make RAW a 24 hour show. I'm sure that would just be even MORE awesome than it is now. I mean, fewer people are watching the shows because it's not about putting random people in matches and hoping for quality. More time does not always make a match good. Did R-Truth and Brodus Clay need the 3 minutes it got on Monday? It probably didn't even need 45 seconds. Wasn't there a Damien Sandow / Sheamus match a couple weeks ago that went 18 minutes? That's bullshit. Did matches need more time a few months ago? Of course. Giving every match an extra 10 minutes isn't much better though.

    There's a reason movies get scenes cut for time. Yea, you're chopping out parts of the show that hardcores might want to watch, but after a certain point you lose the audience when things go too long. Every form of entertainment has a maximum length it should go, and wrestling matches are no different.


      Originally posted by jon jones
      And stop complaining about how there are too many wrestlers on the roster. You need people that lose, otherwise you'll be complaining about "why are they jobbing this guy out when he has so much talent?"


    But they're still "jobbing" guys with talent out. I don't even need to know who you're talking about because unless his name is Cena or Punk, they're doing it. They're making everyone lose. The parity booking strategy they're using is causing their product to stagnate. Fans don't get behind ANY of the midcarders now because it's been drummed into our heads for years by the WWE themselves that "The guys you're watching now don't matter... you may as well go to the can now until John Cena comes out."


      Originally posted by jon jones
      And I'll never understand people who complain about getting good matches on free television. If they advertise a champion vs champion match or a PPV quality match on free television, I'll make a much bigger effort to stick around, because I know I'm going to get a good match. I don't bitch about it and say,"They could have saved this for the PPV dammit!" And if they end it with interference or some kind of run in, then what do you expect? That's why it's on free television. Of course they're going to save the good stuff for the PPV. Then the GM can make a cage match or some stipulation that someone's banned from ringside or something to make the PPV really worth watching.


    I don't think people complain about getting free matches on tv as much as they're complaining that the WWE has NO booking plan and is just making up shows as they go. They used to plan things out months in advance, and now they make it up on the Friday (or later) before Monday, sometimes making things up during the show while it's on the air.

    Wrestling is about telling a story, both in the matches and in the booking. When they give away "money" matches for free on tv because they're short-sighted, and then end up having to put the "jobbers" in PPV spots, all that they've really done is sacrifice an enjoyable long term story for a 10 minute TV match.


      Originally posted by jon jones
      If it weren't for the recaps, I probably wouldn't even remember what happened last week.


    And that's the biggest evidence I could possibly give you that so many hours of wrestling a week is not a good thing.


      Originally posted by jon jones
      And CM Punk hitting that fan was awesome. How can anyone complain about that? I wish wrestlers hit more fans. There's nothing better than seeing a fan rush the ring and get the shit beat out of him. Fans are the ultimate jobbers.


    I wish you had said this at the start of your post. I could have saved some time.


I just want to say that this is a fantastic response and I agree with everything Tribal Prophet said here.
Lexus
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#64 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
I'm not sure if Jon Jones is trolling or not...

I sometimes disagree with flagrant negativism here on the board, but that'd be of the flagrant variety. I'd say considering a fan getting clobbered to be great fits in there.

Furthermore, as I've said before in this very board, it's misery that loves company and the truly content need not convince anyone since they're already content. Simple logic, yada yada.

Also, if I dislike something, I not only have every right to talk about it; to whit discussion is the healthiest form of expressing negative emotion, but thanks to the internet I have a forum to exercise said expression.

On that note, JBL is the best thing on the show right now, making mediocre (or worse) into good, good great, and great into epic. Loving Hell No, but Kane's character breaking asides are just another fantastic aspect to the whole thing. I hope there's no backlash from the Punk shot at the end of the show, and Vince himself just proved that the show used to be way better and precisely why: grit. Swearing, bleeding, swinging weapons, less flashy more violent looking spots. I know they like to call that "Attitude", but the Attitude era was defined by a slightly more gritty approach along with heaping helpings of good old '90's raunch and classlessness.

(edited by Lexus on 11.10.12 2340)


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Since: 25.7.02
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#65 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.30
Whether he's trolling or not, he's got one valid point: Are people actually upset Sheamus/Sandow got 18 minutes? One of the ways things will get better is if they give us long matches, plus it's not like Damien couldn't use the workout. He held up his end, the crowd liked it, even the feh ending made some sense. (Monster face as champ? Have him take out a tag team with one finisher.)

There is a list of things that were wrong with Raw, "a near 20 minute match" isn't on that list.



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jon jones
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#66 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.36
Do you really not enjoy seeing fans get hit?

Remember when Eddie Guerrero had that ladder match and that fan ran in and Eddie punched him in the face? That wasn't awesome?

Or when a fan runs on the football field and gets the shit tackled out of him? Does that not entertain you?

Remember when Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson ran into the stands and started beating the crowd? And then Jermaine O'Neal ran up to that guy and hit him in the face? Wasn't that the most exciting play in basketball?

You guys are the weirdest wrestling fans. How can you watch wrestling and not be entertained by senseless violence?
CRZ
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#67 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
    Originally posted by CEOIII
    Are people actually upset Sheamus/Sandow got 18 minutes?
No, nobody said that. (OK, Tribal Prophet said it up there, but nobody said it the week it aired. Of course, how many people remembered it even a week later?)

    There is a list of things that were wrong with Raw, "a near 20 minute match" isn't on that list.
I have a problem with the near 20 minute matches that end in bullshit disqualification and/or COR, ESPECIALLY when I can tell you just by the match graphic before the ad break that that's what we're going to get (which I did on Monday).

The rule of thumb should be "if this matchup is too important to book a clean finish, perhaps we should save it for the pay-per-view" because trying to protect everybody doesn't protect anybody.

(As an aside, amazingly, we've gotten "clean" finishes in both Main Event...main events. I wonder how long this streak will last...given next week's main event is Miz/Kingston with the IC championship on the line, I almost feel like I don't know who's going to win!)
    Originally posted by jon jones
    Do you really not enjoy seeing fans get hit?

    Remember when Eddie Guerrero had that ladder match and that fan ran in and Eddie punched him in the face? That wasn't awesome?
A fan jumping the rail is not the same as a performer going into the crowd and hitting an "innocent" fan.

    Or when a fan runs on the football field and gets the shit tackled out of him? Does that not entertain you?
Same as a fan jumping the rail.

    Remember when Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson ran into the stands and started beating the crowd? And then Jermaine O'Neal ran up to that guy and hit him in the face? Wasn't that the most exciting play in basketball?
No, not at all, actually.

    You guys are the weirdest wrestling fans. How can you watch wrestling and not be entertained by senseless violence?
I feel like you're trolling us with your lack of acknowledgement of subtlety and nuance - which may be a clue to how some of us can somehow make a distinction between "wrestling" and "senseless violence" - even if you want us to think you can't. (Or maybe you really can't. I'm not much of a mind reader this week.)

(edited by CRZ on 12.10.12 0133)

InVerse
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#68 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.76
    Originally posted by jon jones
    You guys are the weirdest wrestling fans. How can you watch wrestling and not be entertained by senseless violence?


This explains everything right here. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but wrestling is fake. Being confused that people watch wrestling but aren't entertained by senseless violence is like being confused that people enjoy playing first person shooters but aren't entertained by school shootings.
wannaberockstar
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#69 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.13
    Originally posted by InVerse
      Originally posted by jon jones
      You guys are the weirdest wrestling fans. How can you watch wrestling and not be entertained by senseless violence?


    This explains everything right here. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but wrestling is fake. Being confused that people watch wrestling but aren't entertained by senseless violence is like being confused that people enjoy playing first person shooters but aren't entertained by school shootings.


It's why I love the WWE but not other sports like Ultimate Fighting or Boxing. There's a difference between being entertained by acrobatics and performance and watching two grown men actually fight for no reason other then they're getting paid to do so - I respect the heck out of the WWE superstars but I sure as heck don't respect or think that Ultimate Fighters or Boxers are anything but professional bullies.

That's not to say that what the WWE does doesn't take a toll on people; but it's not just a blatant "fight club".

I mean, I'm probably the minority among this forum as I don't like the heavy fighting in matches or blood/garbage wrestling (I mostly watch for the story and soap opera parts) but there's a difference between senseless violence and what goes on in the ring.

(edited by wannaberockstar on 12.10.12 0740)

(edited by wannaberockstar on 12.10.12 0742)
jon jones
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#70 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.21
    Originally posted by wannaberockstar
      Originally posted by InVerse
        Originally posted by jon jones
        You guys are the weirdest wrestling fans. How can you watch wrestling and not be entertained by senseless violence?


      This explains everything right here. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but wrestling is fake. Being confused that people watch wrestling but aren't entertained by senseless violence is like being confused that people enjoy playing first person shooters but aren't entertained by school shootings.


    It's why I love the WWE but not other sports like Ultimate Fighting or Boxing. There's a difference between being entertained by acrobatics and performance and watching two grown men actually fight for no reason other then they're getting paid to do so - I respect the heck out of the WWE superstars but I sure as heck don't respect or think that Ultimate Fighters or Boxers are anything but professional bullies.

    That's not to say that what the WWE does doesn't take a toll on people; but it's not just a blatant "fight club".

    I mean, I'm probably the minority among this forum as I don't like the heavy fighting in matches or blood/garbage wrestling (I mostly watch for the story and soap opera parts) but there's a difference between senseless violence and what goes on in the ring.

    (edited by wannaberockstar on 12.10.12 0740)

    (edited by wannaberockstar on 12.10.12 0742)


I think I understand how some people can get so little enjoyment out of it now. You watch it like a fake show; I watch it as if it's a real sport. For me at least, every show usually has at least one really good match on it, and there are a bunch of guys on the roster that I know will bring it everytime. I understand it's fake, just like I know movies are fake, but that doesn't stop me from being entertained by Jet Li beating the shit out of people or the Avengers beating up a bunch of jobbers from space.

And I love ultimate fighting and boxing. I guess some people just aren't entertained by fights so much. I do understand the subtlety and nuances of wrestling, and I do love that part of it, but when it comes down to it, I just want to see a fight. So even if the storyline part of it isn't there for me, every show has 1 or 2 good fights on it for me to watch.

You wouldn't watch a school shooting? What about a gun fight in a movie? They're pretty much the same thing if you forget about the "storyline" behind it. I bet that if you were shown a video of a school shooting and you were told a good storyline to explain it and that it was a scene in a movie, you would find it very entertaining.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#71 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.73
:)
Leroy
Andouille








Since: 7.2.02
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#72 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.06
    Originally posted by jon jones
    You wouldn't watch a school shooting? What about a gun fight in a movie? They're pretty much the same thing if you forget about the "storyline" behind it.


Of course, the "minor" difference is the sociopathology of the viewer.


    I bet that if you were shown a video of a school shooting and you were told a good storyline to explain it and that it was a scene in a movie, you would find it very entertaining.


If there was a legitimate way to make this bet, I would totally own your trailer home.
du365
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Since: 4.10.02

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#73 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
    Originally posted by wannaberockstar
      Originally posted by InVerse
        Originally posted by jon jones
        You guys are the weirdest wrestling fans. How can you watch wrestling and not be entertained by senseless violence?


      This explains everything right here. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but wrestling is fake. Being confused that people watch wrestling but aren't entertained by senseless violence is like being confused that people enjoy playing first person shooters but aren't entertained by school shootings.


    It's why I love the WWE but not other sports like Ultimate Fighting or Boxing. There's a difference between being entertained by acrobatics and performance and watching two grown men actually fight for no reason other then they're getting paid to do so - I respect the heck out of the WWE superstars but I sure as heck don't respect or think that Ultimate Fighters or Boxers are anything but professional bullies.

    That's not to say that what the WWE does doesn't take a toll on people; but it's not just a blatant "fight club".

    I mean, I'm probably the minority among this forum as I don't like the heavy fighting in matches or blood/garbage wrestling (I mostly watch for the story and soap opera parts) but there's a difference between senseless violence and what goes on in the ring.

    (edited by wannaberockstar on 12.10.12 0740)

    (edited by wannaberockstar on 12.10.12 0742)



Huh...??? Wrestling is fake buddy. And to say that MMA and boxer fight for no reason is absurd, that like saying that NBA and NFL teams play against each other for no reason. I mean do you expect the NY Giant to have a choreographed beef with the Green Bay Packers before the play each other in order to give them a "reason" to battle on the grid iron.

I mean do you expect Mayweather to actually have a choreographed beef with Manny Pacquiao before they finally fight. They are paid athlete...they are suppose to compete without "wacky drama"...WWE superstars are not paid athletes, they are paid performers to a predetermined event so you cannot compare the two.



Hayden Christenson is the worst actor alive.
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

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#74 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.76
    Originally posted by du365
    Huh...??? Wrestling is fake buddy. And to say that MMA and boxer fight for no reason is absurd, that like saying that NBA and NFL teams play against each other for no reason. I mean do you expect the NY Giant to have a choreographed beef with the Green Bay Packers before the play each other in order to give them a "reason" to battle on the grid iron.

    I mean do you expect Mayweather to actually have a choreographed beef with Manny Pacquiao before they finally fight. They are paid athlete...they are suppose to compete without "wacky drama"...WWE superstars are not paid athletes, they are paid performers to a predetermined event so you cannot compare the two.


Are you saying that mixed martial artists and boxers fight for some reason other than money? Sure, a few of them legitimately dislike each other, but take the money out of the equation and you'd be lucky to get a card a year.

Nobody was trying to compare the two. I believe wannaberockstar's whole point (which I completely agree with) is that the reason we enjoy wrestling is because it isn't real. I, for one, don't like watching idiots destroy their minds and bodies because they couldn't find any other way to make a living. Thus I watch wrestling instead of the other stuff. There are still people getting hurt and brain-damaged in wrestling but at least there's an attempt to abate that, rather than that being the entire point of what they're doing.
du365
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#75 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
    Originally posted by InVerse
      Originally posted by du365
      Huh...??? Wrestling is fake buddy. And to say that MMA and boxer fight for no reason is absurd, that like saying that NBA and NFL teams play against each other for no reason. I mean do you expect the NY Giant to have a choreographed beef with the Green Bay Packers before the play each other in order to give them a "reason" to battle on the grid iron.

      I mean do you expect Mayweather to actually have a choreographed beef with Manny Pacquiao before they finally fight. They are paid athlete...they are suppose to compete without "wacky drama"...WWE superstars are not paid athletes, they are paid performers to a predetermined event so you cannot compare the two.


    Are you saying that mixed martial artists and boxers fight for some reason other than money? Sure, a few of them legitimately dislike each other, but take the money out of the equation and you'd be lucky to get a card a year.

    Nobody was trying to compare the two. I believe wannaberockstar's whole point (which I completely agree with) is that the reason we enjoy wrestling is because it isn't real. I, for one, don't like watching idiots destroy their minds and bodies because they couldn't find any other way to make a living. Thus I watch wrestling instead of the other stuff. There are still people getting hurt and brain-damaged in wrestling but at least there's an attempt to abate that, rather than that being the entire point of what they're doing.


Huh????Wrestlers are killing themselves (they use steroids and other crazy things)for the "look". Chris Benoit brain during his autopsy was stated to be swiss cheese.

Of course they are not hurting each other in wrestling, IT'S FAKE!!! but as bad as you say the other sports are in regards to bodily harm...at least none of these sports are 24/7. The athletes in these sports have time to heal and there are more death to drugs in wrestling than any other "sports".

Of course MMA, boxers, foot ball and basketball players compete for money...what other reason is there. Are you telling me that WWE superstars are not performing just for the money....they are away from their families for over 300 days, of course it's only for the money.



Hayden Christenson is the worst actor alive.
CTX
Salami








Since: 11.5.02

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#76 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.37
    Originally posted by InVerse
    I, for one, don't like watching idiots destroy their minds and bodies because they couldn't find any other way to make a living. Thus I watch wrestling instead of the other stuff. There are still people getting hurt and brain-damaged in wrestling but at least there's an attempt to abate that, rather than that being the entire point of what they're doing.

Yeah, that's quite an odd viewpoint to take. I'd be willing to wager wrestling has a larger number of deaths and casualties than any real sport. If you're choosing wrestling on the basis of safety for the performers I'd say you've chosen quite badly.



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