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The W - Pro Wrestling - Raw #1004 8-20-12 (Page 2)
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lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.27
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    That was one of Cena's best deliveries. He neither went for the dated cartoon reference nor did he yell himself into a clumsy, improvised corner. Stayed on point. Delivered it clean. Great job. Not a great script, mind you.

    They have to do this with Punk. They have no one else in the main event to throw at him, so someone has to turn. As long as Cena is a contender, Punk has to be the malleable character. And his new direction isn't so new given his character arc since moving from ECW. He's no longer claiming to be addicted to competition nor does he say he's better than us because of straight edge. But he still upholds the theory of transitive properties. Cena's supposedly the best. Punk has beaten him at least three times in title matches. Therefore Punk should be the best. Cena's resistance to acknowledge him as such fulfills Punk's perception of him. What does Punk have to do to be considered the best? Yes, Punk, what DO you have to do?

    I may have summoned Otunga via the WWE13 roster thread. Beware my power, Matt Tracker's light.


No, they really don't. They could ship Cena to Smackdown and Orton to Raw then go from there. Orton/Punk with a new dynamic could work. Cena being off Raw is a plus and he can work with some of the new talent over there.

If Punk loses then what he is another crazy heel? We already have a bunch of those along with crazy faces. As well as a GM. Speaking of which, how could Raw GM AJ make a match for a Smackdown Money in the Bank when she stated, she could not do anything involving the world title.

As for HHH leaving, sadly I will say he will be back. Probably to face Brock at Mania much to my chagrin.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.82
    Originally posted by dMp
    But it's so simple (in WWE's mind)
    Sheamus does bad things to a bad guy. *
    He's giving him his come uppance for being a cocky jerk.

    As far as story telling goes, it's not different from Austin's actions in the attitude era. I think he stole more cars & belts than anyone else. Problem is, Sheamus is not Austin, AdR is no Vince or Rock, and well..it's a different day & age.



The problem isn't booking Sheamus as an antihero. It's booking Sheamus as an antihero on the same show that they're booking Cena as a virtuous babyface and Punk as the disrespectful heel. Think of the cognitive dissonance of booking mid-90s Bret Hart and late-90s Steve Austin as top babyfaces on the same show. That's what they're doing here, and it's bloody awful.
Chumpstain
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Since: 21.1.02
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    You guys I...I think this just might be the end of HHH's legendary career! What do you think? Do you think this might be the end of HHH's legendary career?


When watching, I wanted to start keeping count of how many times "Triple H" was mentioned during each segment, but I didn't want to rewind to the start of the show and go through it all again to cover what I missed. If he is gone, I'll be happy enough for it, as long it means they stop talking about him. Maybe I'll do a count for my Smackdown post.

I somehow doubt that Chris Jericho is going to be repeatedly mentioned in each segment on Smackdown despite him being gone now as well!
Spaceman Spiff
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Since: 2.1.02
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.95
    Originally posted by lotjx
    No, they really don't. They could ship Cena to Smackdown and Orton to Raw then go from there. Orton/Punk with a new dynamic could work. Cena being off Raw is a plus and he can work with some of the new talent over there.

Cena is the biggest ratings draw they have. No way they stick him on the taped secondary show. Punk, as good as he is, doesn't draw the eyeballs that Cena does. (I have no idea what Orton does ratings-wise).

Besides, what new talent would he work with over there? Anyone on SD that he hasn't previously worked with are all midcard or below.



Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.82
Maybe Cena could work with Cody, or Sandow, or Cesaro? Maybe a returning Mark Henry? When you run out of opponents for the top guy you make new ones, you don't repackage the old ones to their - and the product's - detriment.
Hokienautic
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Since: 2.1.02
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.71
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by CruelAngel777
      I was ready to deathrant the continued forced heel turn of CM Punk until I read It's False recap. I still can't decide if it's a half-ass attempt at a tweener development of Punk, a backfiring heel turn, or possibly WWE letting the fans decide how to react to CM Punk's neutral actions. If it's the third choice it would be a nice extension on his Summer of Punk that started his main event rise from last year.

    He kicked Jerry Lawler in the back of the head as Lawler was leaving the ring and showed no remorse. In the world of WWE that is usually to be read as a pure heel act I would think.


But as was mentioned earlier, Lawler very clearly bumped into Punk on his way out of the ring. It was clumsily done, but in the world of Real Men, if you bump into someone like that it's a show of disrespect. Do that in a bar or club and see what response you get. So there's some grey area here.
Spaceman Spiff
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.95
Those guys need significant build-up before you'd put them with Cena. Cesaro just feuded w/ Santino, Sandow is feuding w/ Brodus Clay, and Cody w/ Sin Cara. Henry/Cena sounds fun, though.

But it's all a moot point, as they're not putting the Face of the Company on the taped show.



Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.17
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    Those guys need significant build-up before you'd put them with Cena. Cesaro just feuded w/ Santino, Sandow is feuding w/ Brodus Clay, and Cody w/ Sin Cara. Henry/Cena sounds fun, though.

    But it's all a moot point, as they're not putting the Face of the Company on the taped show.


If the WWE remembers that Rock promised to win the title again and would challenge for it at the Rumble, that gives us five months for Cena and Punk to close out this angle. It makes sense for Punk to beat Cena, carry the belt to the Rumble, and lose it to Rock with Rock then carrying it to Mania for a Cena rematch.

But this does nothing to dust clean the main event. We're still looking at Rock, Cena, and Punk, and that's a bigger problem than who turns and why. Kicking Lawler (my new band) doesn't help either because Jerry doesn't need elevating.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
spf
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.93
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by spf
        Originally posted by CruelAngel777
        I was ready to deathrant the continued forced heel turn of CM Punk until I read It's False recap. I still can't decide if it's a half-ass attempt at a tweener development of Punk, a backfiring heel turn, or possibly WWE letting the fans decide how to react to CM Punk's neutral actions. If it's the third choice it would be a nice extension on his Summer of Punk that started his main event rise from last year.

      He kicked Jerry Lawler in the back of the head as Lawler was leaving the ring and showed no remorse. In the world of WWE that is usually to be read as a pure heel act I would think.


    But as was mentioned earlier, Lawler very clearly bumped into Punk on his way out of the ring. It was clumsily done, but in the world of Real Men, if you bump into someone like that it's a show of disrespect. Do that in a bar or club and see what response you get. So there's some grey area here.

Most likely that will be ignored and we'll get numerous slow motion replays of the kick followed by Punk looking surly with slowed-down audio loops of Punk demanding an apology. If Punk brings it up it will get spun as him overreacting because he's a bully who was mad that Cena humiliated him beforehand. I don't want to totally dismiss it just because Punk is excellent at working in these small things, but I think we might be seeking ambiguity here solely to avoid accepting that Punk became a cliched heel last night.



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
Spiraling_Shape
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Since: 2.1.02
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    But this does nothing to dust clean the main event. We're still looking at Rock, Cena, and Punk, and that's a bigger problem than who turns and why. Kicking Lawler (my new band) doesn't help either because Jerry doesn't need elevating.


Maybe Kicking Lawler will elicit more heel heat than attacking Dwayne here in the summer of 2012?



"Ice cream bars! Ice cream bars!" - RAW crowd, Boston, 7/11/11
BigDaddyLoco
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Punk wasn't that good of a face, so having him kick Lawler in the head whether it was justified or not is fine with me because he thinks it is justified. I'm sure they won't spin it right, but at least some of the shackles are finally off of Punk.

Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.17
I think Punk could get more mileage and cement his obsession with achievement by clocking Kofi, seemingly the only person the in-the-know WWE Universe might consider Punk's friend. Kofi, for example, could use some prominence.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Dr Unlikely
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.30
Sending Cena to SmackDown doesn't help anything anyway, since everybody noteworthy on SmackDown (except Cody Rhodes, who they perhaps no longer consider noteworthy for as yet unclear reasons) shows up on Raw all the time anyway. (It was, however, weirdly nice of them to have AJ point out that she can't book a World Heavyweight Title match.)

I should point out that I agree that Cena's delivery was very good last night, but his argument is still problematic in that he did essentially come out and say "Punk, you've had a nine-month title right, but yes, you are still in the backseat because I'm John Cena." That is seriously a terrible thing to have him acknowledge, as was the "I can always get a title shot anyway" out clause he gave himself. Having Cena's "correct" face position be "I'm better because I'm me, no matter how many times you beat me, and I will always believe this and continue to be able get title shots until I do win" sets up an inescapable trap for everyone, or to put it better:
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    Punk has beaten him at least three times in title matches. Therefore Punk should be the best. Cena's resistance to acknowledge him as such fulfills Punk's perception of him. What does Punk have to do to be considered the best? Yes, Punk, what DO you have to do?
The only answer for Punk: He must kill John Cena!

If they DID want to set up Cena to move out of the top of the card and work with new people, the only angle I can see them doing is have Cena's "I can always get another title shot" stance be put to the test and have the edict be that, no, you lost to the current champ so many times in a year that you get shuffled back to the bottom of the rankings. That said, since I'm fantasy booking already, my ideal move is turning Cena heel in a way where he still pretends to love the kids, but it's clear to the adults that he's faking it and doing all the charity work as a way to stay in the limelight, keep the money train rolling and, as newly single John Cena, hit on the hot moms. Heel John Cena as Big Ern McCracken.

Anyway, back to reality, one temporary positive is that both Cena and Punk throwing out exact day-lengths for Cena's longest and Punk's current reigns seems to imply Punk has to hold the title through Night of Chamions, if only so he can get increasingly desperate to hang on to the belt to pass Cena.

Elsewhere! Man, did they just blow through other angles or what? I mean, it felt like we got the full Sandow/Clay feud right there: Sandow beats him to hand him a loss, Clay celebrates anyway like he just won the feud. And then they just have AJ skip over what should have been a full month of "Jericho puts his career on the line" by just having AJ (literally!) skip in and say "ultimate blood feud stipulations for guys out of nowhere!" to them? Jericho has gotten royally hosed on Phase 2 of his Punk and Ziggler feuds since he's come back, where they just launch ahead to the ultimate rematch moments without doing any of the build for them.

And yeah, it was equally weird having them do "Oh, yeah, and Jericho's career is also over" in the middle of Everyone Wonders If This Is The End Of HHH's Legendary Career Night. Personally, I'm not sure I can ever forgive Shawn for not stepping up and telling HHH that thing he told him before each of the last two Undertaker Wrestlemania matches. Hoping next week we get a creepy movie sent by the Undertaker where he says "What if I'd teleported into the ring, tried to say 'Hunter, we're The Last Two Outlaws' but stumbled over a line or two and got a 'WHAT?' chant from the crowd and then just said screw it and pointed at a Wrestlemania sign? If I'd just done that, maybe this wouldn't be the end of HHH's legendary career?"

Odds they held off on HHH appearing on the show to make sure he didn't get any residual "You tapped out?" action, and that whoever included Cody's tweet noting that the crowd initially mocked HHH in the "Everyone Tweets About Whether This Is The End of HHH's Legendary Career?" slide gets punished?
Hokienautic
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Since: 2.1.02
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.71
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by Hokienautic
        Originally posted by spf
          Originally posted by CruelAngel777
          I was ready to deathrant the continued forced heel turn of CM Punk until I read It's False recap. I still can't decide if it's a half-ass attempt at a tweener development of Punk, a backfiring heel turn, or possibly WWE letting the fans decide how to react to CM Punk's neutral actions. If it's the third choice it would be a nice extension on his Summer of Punk that started his main event rise from last year.

        He kicked Jerry Lawler in the back of the head as Lawler was leaving the ring and showed no remorse. In the world of WWE that is usually to be read as a pure heel act I would think.


      But as was mentioned earlier, Lawler very clearly bumped into Punk on his way out of the ring. It was clumsily done, but in the world of Real Men, if you bump into someone like that it's a show of disrespect. Do that in a bar or club and see what response you get. So there's some grey area here.

    Most likely that will be ignored and we'll get numerous slow motion replays of the kick followed by Punk looking surly with slowed-down audio loops of Punk demanding an apology. If Punk brings it up it will get spun as him overreacting because he's a bully who was mad that Cena humiliated him beforehand. I don't want to totally dismiss it just because Punk is excellent at working in these small things, but I think we might be seeking ambiguity here solely to avoid accepting that Punk became a cliched heel last night.


I dunno, I think it was so blatantly done on purpose (albeit clumsily done) that they're going to do something with it. We shall see.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.73
new heel opponents Punk had left: Big Show, Wade Barrett, Mark Henry, Cody Rhodes before they abruptly stopped pushing him, heel Randy Orton, Miz

new heel opponents Cena has left: Daniel Bryan, Mark Henry, Cody Rhodes before they abruptly stopped pushing him, Dolph Ziggler & Vickie Guerrero (who, granted, are tethered to Sheamus for now)

Instead of doing the equivalent of turning Batista heel to wrestle Cena in 2006, why not make yourselves a new Edge. (Actually, they had. It was Daniel Bryan with heel AJ.)

Plus Punk vs. Cena in a babyface feud, held off for a year, Batman vs. Superman, would've been fresh and intriguing. I really don't get it, and I don't think I will until I see if Punk has Rock and Austin lined up for early 2013. Punk being an excellent heel is the lone consolation.

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    You guys I...I think this just might be the end of HHH's legendary career! What do you think? Do you think this might be the end of HHH's legendary career?


I understand a number of imaginary members of the WWE Universe are tweeting about him with the fake hashtags #legend and #legendary.


    It was, however, weirdly nice of them to have AJ point out that she can't book a World Heavyweight Title match.


But she can book a match for the World Heavyweight Title Money in the Bank? Horrible.


    And then they just have AJ skip over what should have been a full month of "Jericho puts his career on the line" by just having AJ (literally!) skip in and say "ultimate blood feud stipulations for guys out of nowhere!" to them?


Hey, you guys are slightly upset at each other? Career vs. the de facto World Title! Horrible.
Dr Unlikely
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.30
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro

      And then they just have AJ skip over what should have been a full month of "Jericho puts his career on the line" by just having AJ (literally!) skip in and say "ultimate blood feud stipulations for guys out of nowhere!" to them?
    Hey, you guys are slightly upset at each other? Career vs. the de facto World Title! Horrible.
Giving it more thought, there's one way Jericho could have saved that: instead of attacking Dolph, he should have done a reverse version of his blinkin' jacket comeback segment by pausing reflectively in the ring for a solid minute, going around the ring five or six times to say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry I let you down!" to every fan and crew member at ringside, gone up to the ramp and done a sad farewell wave, then shaking his head and heading back to do another circuit around the ring apologizing for letting everyone down again and repeating it until the crowd got mad at him.
Matt Tracker
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.17
    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro

        And then they just have AJ skip over what should have been a full month of "Jericho puts his career on the line" by just having AJ (literally!) skip in and say "ultimate blood feud stipulations for guys out of nowhere!" to them?
      Hey, you guys are slightly upset at each other? Career vs. the de facto World Title! Horrible.
    Giving it more thought, there's one way Jericho could have saved that: instead of attacking Dolph, he should have done a reverse version of his blinkin' jacket comeback segment by pausing reflectively in the ring for a solid minute, going around the ring five or six times to say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry I let you down!" to every fan and crew member at ringside, gone up to the ramp and done a sad farewell wave, then shaking his head and heading back to do another circuit around the ring apologizing for letting everyone down again and repeating it until the crowd got mad at him.


If it gives Ziggler the ability to crow about retiring Jericho, I'm for it, but it's yet another log on his heat bonfire that should already have warranted him a beefier title reign.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.28


      If Punk brings it up it will get spun as him overreacting because he's a bully who was mad that Cena humiliated him beforehand. I don't want to totally dismiss it just because Punk is excellent at working in these small things, but I think we might be seeking ambiguity here solely to avoid accepting that Punk became a cliched heel last night.


    I dunno, I think it was so blatantly done on purpose (albeit clumsily done) that they're going to do something with it. We shall see.


Punk's current character, such as it is, is Guy Wearing Black Hat While Denying The Color Of The Hat. I think you're both going to be right. We'll get the video package of Punk being evil, and we'll get the Punk promo complaining about the video package of Punk being evil because Lawler bumped him first.

At some point, they need Punk to pick a lane and commit to it. "Some point" should really before Night of Champions, but I'm not sure they're getting there if they keep giving him out like Lawler bumping him and justifiable main event complaints. Outside of Punk's behavior towards AJ (which, like most of AJ's own behavior, is ignored when it suits the people in charge), Punk hasn't really done anything unforgivable yet; there's still plenty of room for them to hit a reset button on the night after Night of the Champions.



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TheOldMan
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Since: 13.2.03
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.68
Maybe the rest of the locker room was a bit undercut by Lesnar declaring victory over HHH (and all of WWE) at the top of the show, and walking out unchallenged. If Cena interrupted it would have sucked, but at least he's a 'defend the WWE' guy. If Punk interrupted and flashed his big shiny "Best in the World" WWE Championship in Lesnar's face, the roof would have come off the arena. (I know, it's a pipe-bomb dream.)

Re: AJ - We think about long-term booking so much more than Vince (and by extension the writers) do/does. I say having a storyline bipolar/crazy person as GM is as good a choice as you could ask for a program that might go through as many as eight re-writes the day of the show, right? For my money AJ does a fine job with what they give her, even if they never try to explain her character beyond the deus ex machina role she fulfills now.

There's also the problem of three distinct audiences the WWE plays to. The PPV audience is not the same as a Raw/SmackDown live audience is not the same as the TV viewing audience is. I noticed the fan who they showed reacting to Lesnar's re-debut was there over the weekend. Same with the overweight guy and his family of about eight second row, facing the camera, all of them wearing green Cena gear. The Cena fan with the white coat was there too, but I think he shows up for nearly every Raw.

But there's a noticeable group of people who travel for the big PPV events. That's who dominated the first hour of WrestleMania with YES! chants, shitting all over the 18 seconds booking. I think the idea was to get Sheamus over like Warrior smoking HTM in the first minute, but Bryan is still more over than Big Irish.

Which leads me to the Punk turn - the rule of thumb is, if it's on TV, they mean to show it to you. If Punk is 'going into business for himself', I could see it once, maybe twice - but Vince would catch on. Haven't heard about any backstage arguements, so I suggest that they mean to be telling a story where the announcers are trying to pigeonhole Punk as a heel, where he's really not - he's just living up to his 'shoot' promo of just over a year ago. Last night felt pretty heelish to me, but they could be keeping us all guessing on is Punk a heel, or is he a tweener? Punk is as good as they have going to work a crowd right now, so he'll be able to get the boos if he wants them.

Still, I remember Punk doing pretty good with the Boston Garden crowd with the "you have become the New York Yankees" promo - I'm not that sure Cena will be able to do much better than 50/50 with a PPV live audience even in his own home town.

I didn't so much miss Kelly because I know she's still working on a new deal - but I don't understand why no Beth. And if it wasn't a botched finish, the end of the Diva's battle royale sure felt like one when Eve hit the floor, just from all their reactions for about five seconds after the ref realized he needed to call for the bell. For once I didn't mind when Vince ordered Cole to bury the match.


(Oh yes, the more they double down on trying to get sympathy for the COO, the more I laugh at how it's utterly failing.)

Also, too: Three hour Raws can't be sat through. I'm starting to get the hang of paying attention at the top of each hour and the main event slot, and having the show on in the background otherwise.



dwaters
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Since: 16.10.02
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.25
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    That was one of Cena's best deliveries. He neither went for the dated cartoon reference nor did he yell himself into a clumsy, improvised corner. Stayed on point. Delivered it clean. Great job.


I fell asleep, but woke up enough to listen to Cena's speech. The man brought it. I remember thinking what a great high school football coach he would make. Either that, or a motivational speaker.
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