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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 7 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.73
Wow, so they really have killed the Raw thread. The Raw thread! The thread about what happened on Monday Night Raw, the most important wrestling show of the week, for this wrestling message board.

I thought Raw was very good but OTOH I don't know if any 3-hour Raw can be very good. I still haven't figured out whether my strategy will be to just let it run for 3 hours or establish a DVR buffer. I went buffer but I just kept taking breaks. I'm not trying to act like we're doing menial labor here (well, we are working on a chain gang) when the task is "watch TV for even longer," but son of a bitch it's too long.

Cena vs. Bryan was awesome. Bryan loses a lot, but that was the kind of loss -- going even with John Cena while the announcers put you over and they protect your finisher so he doesn't break out of it -- that actually does get you over in losing. (You'd think he'll beat Kane so he'll have heat before he does whatever with Charlie Sheen, but who knows.)

The one positive about the extra hour is they're filling time the easiest way possible, with longer matches. We've got two good long matches each week, and the girls even had time to do a shine segment and a heat segment (I UNDERSTAND WRESTLING) for the first time in like 5 years. But they're still only willing to put the same people on TV they were before.

AJ is a good, confident talker but I think people are going to turn on her in this role. Bossing around these dudes is bullshit.

Michaels and Heyman were both really good. Lesnar and Heyman are a perfect act. It's embarrassing that they thought it was a good idea to have Brock aligned with Johnny Ace and doing stupid shit like those contract negotiations.

Jericho has slid back into Y2J like a comfortable pair of leg-length tights. Mitchell Cole! WHAT ABOUT RAISIN?

I like how AW's interjections have taken a 180 degree turn into praising beloved historic figures.

I can't remember anything else. Oh yeah Kelly Kelly what's up

(edited by JustinShapiro on 7.8.12 0136)
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
Punk's heel turn was completed tonight - and I don't mean the haircut. And yet...it was Big Show standing tall with the title (don't say "belt!") over his shoulder at the end of the night.

I missed the Sandow/Clay segment and AJ/Bryan backstage discussion due to spontaneous reboot on the part of my DVR. Is this a serious storyline injury for Clay or should we not expect him to miss any time?

The Ryback ate some offense from Hawkins & Reks but ended up pinning Hawkins after the Pride March Slam. I like to call it the PMS for short. (I just came up with that, actually - I'll probably totally forget about it unless it catches on after somebody steals it) Speaking of, didn't they run that EXACT same PIP Ryback promo on Smackdown last week? And, from how awful his eye looked, was THAT promo taped, like, MONTHS ago? Weird. "FEED ME MORE" is so over that the fans started chanting it while Ryback was saying "FINISH IT," which may also not be what WWE wanted.

The #RAWactive match was "Who should face Punk? Miz, Kane or Mysterio?" Shockingly, unless I'm recalling incorrectly Mysterio only secured about half the vote, so maybe that heel turn wasn't going as well as WWE were hoping - ideally, there'd be no contest getting the single face to take the unrigged rigged vote against the two heels. (Interestingly, Kane and Miz ended up working a match later in the show - these Creative dudes seem to love booking heel/heel matchups but usually Dolph Ziggler is in them).

Did Cena hit on AJ during the opening 20 minutes of interview time? By the way, I did some rough estimation and came up with a first hour ratio of 43/37/20 which means about 26 minutes of interview/backstage segments, 22 minutes of "match" (which was me being generous and including entrances and postmatch nonsense) and 12 minutes of commercials. Not exactly "can't miss" stuff.

Justin, no comments on the show anchoring storyline of Sheamus stealing Alberto del Rio's Ferrari? No, wait, King wants me to know it was "just a joyride." ...which I'm pretty sure is just as illegal, but not in the WWE Universe. I didn't really think this was the way to incorporate TOUT into the show, much less give segment after segment to, but that may be why I'm not on the WWE Creative team.

Jericho's TOUT was much more amusing - and I am impressed that he got it in one take.

Alex Riley's first win ever! Poor Dolph!

Any significance to the Chuck Taylor wrestling boots and anime figurine adorning AJ's office? By the way, why is everybody so gosh darn happy that apparently-still-a-nutjob AJ is running the show? I guess we'll have to wait for her to slowly turn on every single person delighted with her - I can't wait to see what dumbass match Lawler ends up booked in.

That Lesnar guy sure sweats a lot.

I think that's all I got.

EDIT: I hope Heath Slater was off consoling Rosa Mendes while protecting her from Jackson Andrews...but only because I wasn't available. (I wouldn't be much of a match for Jackson Andrews, but hopefully there would be some really great consoling before then. Because I LOVED HER FIRST.)

EDIT 2: I would be remiss if I didn't mention that they finally debuted the new opening theme, and it DID turn out to be "Tonight Is the Night" - although they STILL played Shinedown's "The Energy" during some of the bumpers (and *still* haven't ID'd it, so welcome to all the searchers who keep landing on our threads because they want to know what that song is. Since you're already here, why don't you register and reply and stick around for ten years?)

(edited by CRZ on 7.8.12 0102)

It's False
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Since: 20.6.02
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.54
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    Wow, so they really have killed the Raw thread. The Raw thread! The thread about what happened on Monday Night Raw, the most important wrestling show of the week, for this wrestling message board.


I switched back and forth between this and baseball. And given my overall negative stance on the product, I'd feel hypocritical if I started the thread. But I did see enough to comment on one thing that's really bugging me.

CM Punk's grievance over the last few weeks is that he's not being respected and he's being ignored, even though he's the champion. I'm sorry...this makes him a HEEL? He's absolutely RIGHT! He IS being ignored! He's jerking the curtain at the Elimination Chamber and consistently wrestling in the undercard, even though he's the freakin' CHAMPION! Meanwhile, John Cena's always in the main event slot wrestling gimmick matches, special attractions, and comedy matches with non-wrestlers. Punk has every right to feel disrespected! Why does this make him a heel?

And I get that John Cena's trying to be the big babyface playing off the newest heel on the block, but saying that Punk hasn't earned respect after the year that Punk's had just served to make Cena look like such a smarmy douchebag.

CM Punk's still the babyface in this angle to me, dammit!

Also, the Show beatdown of Punk and Cena is a lot more effective when you don't have Randy Orton laying out Show an hour earlier. Just saying.

    Originally posted by CRZ
    Jericho's TOUT was much more amusing - and I am impressed that he got it to work in one take. Alex Riley's first win ever! Poor Dolph!

Riley won and rather than sell it as any kind of meaningful upset, everyone just buries the poor guy by hammering home what a loser he is. Because that's how you get people over in today's WWE!

    Originally posted by CRZ
    I missed the Sandow/Clay segment...

Just to show I'm not a completely cynical a-hole, I'll give them this: That Sandow/Clay segment was very well-executed. Now if they could stop rolling the DX beatdown to remind people "HA HA! That Sandow guy sure looked like a dope, didn't he?", they might have something!

And finally, I'm amazed that AW is still employed. Seriously.

Aaaaaaaand I'm out!

(edited by It's False on 6.8.12 2301)


"Release the BOGUS!"
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
Oh, AND there was THIS:





SchippeWreck
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Since: 26.3.03
From: Glendale, CA

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.84
I really liked the Wade Barrett vignette, despite thinking, "Wow! Those underground bare knuckle fighters sure have some nice HD cameras shooting their matches!"



"It's magic! We don't need to explain it!"
dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.89
    Originally posted by It's False


    CM Punk's still the babyface in this angle to me, dammit!




I'm pretty sure that's what they're going for.
The WWE Universe (the average fan who boos/cheers who they are supposed to) might boo him, but the smarter and more serious fans will keep cheering.

I'm pretty sure they realize they cannot get all the fans to turn their back on Punk, just like they couldn't with Daniel Bryan.



Avatar Mud
Lord of the Manor
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Since: 24.2.03
From: London, United Kingdom

Since last post: 603 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
I don't know why I keep watching this show other than the fact it gives me a reason to not go to bed.

The lazy turns really bother me. Jericho, Kane, Punk and even Bryan have all been turned in such dubious fashion. Plus, they have now taken each champion & turned them heel in the midst of their run. It'd make sense for the fans to wonder when Sheamus will turn given this latest trend. Bryan made sense enough, but going out of their way to try to kill the fan support has been grating. Now they're set to do the same with Punk. Sure, there is a legitimate point to be made, but he's not actually making it. He still isn't main eventing and when he does at Summerslam, it'll be because Cena's there. Watching the show, that first segment seemed more like they were using Punk to get AJ over, which I find insane. They're sacrificing a hot property that people are/were into to put over a miscast GM? Don't get me wrong, it's nice to see them try to run with AJ, but why must they always screw up anything that falls into their lap?

It's just so hard to care about any of the characters the way they all end up being handled. The Ziggler non-turn is another example. Instead they're using him to reboot the Jericho return, now that it looks like he'll be sticking around for awhile. The way Lesnar has been handled has been well discussed, but honestly, does anyone want to see him take on HHH given how much of a bitch he's been made to look thus far?

On the upside, I like how Sandow is coming along, not that I have any faith in him hitting a Cody Rhodes-like ceiling. Effort being put into the tag-division is encouraging, even if it has taken on a minority refuge feel.

They toned down the recaps & social media babble with one major exception: the Sheamus car episode. How bloody annoying was all of that. To spend so much time setting up 15 seconds of footage on a computer screen on television is... retarded (I know that word is frowned upon, but I really cannot think of a more fitting description). Lawler needs to be put out to pasture. Yeah, we get it. The face champion didn't steal the car. We're all idiots, thanks.

Hopefully next Monday night I'll be able to make myself go to bed at a sensible hour.




Comin' through!!!
steven87gill
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Since: 14.1.11

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.71
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    ''Says a lot of stuff that makes all sorts of sense''


    Originally posted by It's False
    ''Also says many true things''


Yeah, I have to agree with a few on here who despair at how Punk is being handled. He made a great point on the earphones at the end, so why didn't he make it to the crowd?

''just cancel the triple threat'', wow, simmering stuff there, seriously though, If that's Punk's idea of garnering heat, then this is going to be an even more shitty, ill advised heel turn than I first thought. (If that is indeed what 'this' is)

And as I feared the crowd don't seem to know how to respond, it's a muted response at best. Punk isn't really saying anything that's factually incorrect, Lawler is the WWE's agenda mouthpiece, and his beef with the Rock is understandable, but he's doing it in the cookie cutter whiny heel way.

@JustinShapiro Please tell me you agree with the above, am I the only one having flashbacks to 2001 here?

(edited by steven87gill on 7.8.12 0504)

(edited by steven87gill on 7.8.12 0507)

(edited by steven87gill on 7.8.12 0507)
BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    I don't know why I keep watching this show other than the fact it gives me a reason to not go to bed.



    Hopefully next Monday night I'll be able to make myself go to bed at a sensible hour.


This is the battle I seem to be facing every Monday. It's not that the whole show is bad, but I'm not missing anything when I turn away for a little bit. I like the two longer matches a show, but don't like all the other drawn out stuff and spending an extra hour with Cole and Lawler kind of sucks too. I wouldn't mind turning into a next day highlight watcher.

Spiraling_Shape
Bratwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: PA

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41
Yeah I thought it was a well-rounded RAW with a little of everything but still...three hours leaves plenty of time to flip to the Phillies losing and the Olympics (although it seemed like NBC was constantly in an ad break).

I thought Sheamus Touting from the car was a smart use of it, as it eliminates the omniscient cameraman who just happens to be wherever the wrestler is on the town. But I can't stand car-related WWE angles so I sort of ignored the part where he brought Berty's car back. Jericho's Tout was awesome though.

Loved the Bearded Barrett Barrage video too.

Re: Punk's motivations, I'm waiting for HIM to say he's been disrespected by not being in the PPV main events all year...we've all said it, but it feels like they're never going to actually let *him* say it (other than that backstage bit with Eve a few weeks ago?).

I really want to know why Punk was made up like the Devil for whatever was pre-taped yesterday afternoon:




"Ice cream bars! Ice cream bars!" - RAW crowd, Boston, 7/11/11
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.27
I saw the first hour and came to the realization that they trying to shove a round peg into a square hole. Turning Punk was probably the worst thing they could have done. Now, we are forced back into Cena is the best guy ever in the WWE Universe which everyone under the age of 10 is sick of. He comes off like such an ass anymore, I am not sure why he is still face. Half the crowd still hates his guts and want Punk to be their guy. Then to have Punk do as someone already stated, cookie cutter heel whining is just brutal to watch.

I did love Punk's "Evil Raw GM" comment and him bring up, he beat Cena at SummerSlam last year to which Cena said nothing. Its moments like that where you see the Punk from last year only to be buried by WWE booking. The major problem is no one gives a shit about the Big Show. He is just there to be in the way. He is another round peg in this square hole they have put themselves into with this storyline. AJ just doesn't fit the part. If they wanted to turn Punk full blown heel have him give AJ the GTS, but someone has an election to lose in November, so that won't happen. And that is another problem, we know Punk can be an awesome heel, but there seems to be something holding him back or the writing back maybe he will go full force after they dispatch Big Show at SummerSlam or maybe they are having second thoughts, but I don't think we are getting the best out of Punk.

Until Lesnar actually destroys Shawn and beats HHH at SummerSlam, WWE blew $5 million for nothing. They could have paid Heyman 10% of that and still end up where they are now with any random wrestler in the back. You know the ones screaming for attention online. JTG, we hardly knew thee.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
Dr Unlikely
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Since: 2.1.02

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.30
Most important point of the night: I was both intrigued to see Rey bring back the Question Mark as part of his ring gear (in fact, he had a literal "King of Mystery" logo going) and horrified, because holy shit, that was the worst ring gear I've ever seen. Like, that was Shawn Michaels Elimination Chamber Brown Pantyhose ugly. Rey looked like some kind of weird frycook lucha gimmick or something. The hell was that?

    Originally posted by CRZ
    The Ryback ate some offense from Hawkins & Reks but ended up pinning Hawkins after the Pride March Slam. I like to call it the PMS for short. (I just came up with that, actually - I'll probably totally forget about it unless it catches on after somebody steals it)
I just want to throw the "Food Stamp" out there as an potential alternative. Also, Ryback's messed up eye has to be some kind of color contact at this point, right? Or else they really need to get someone to look at that.
    Originally posted by CRZ
    The #RAWactive match was "Who should face Punk? Miz, Kane or Mysterio?" Shockingly, unless I'm recalling incorrectly Mysterio only secured about half the vote, so maybe that heel turn wasn't going as well as WWE were hoping - ideally, there'd be no contest getting the single face to take the unrigged rigged vote against the two heels.
Rey was the lone face up against heels Jack Swagger and CM Punk in the audience vote to face John Cena on the night of the NXT Invasion. The only takeaway I can...take away...from that is that a pretty good chunk of their internet voting audience views Punk in a way that trumps heel/face alignment and has for at least two years now.

I really liked that they gave Barrett a return vignette, and I actually really liked the vignette itself. Bare Knuckle Brawler is a perfectly good way to sell Barrett and could be used to bring him back as a face or heel or whatever (because, really, his first feud back should be with Big Show, punch vs. punch). Also, the beard kinda works. BUT! I was still a little disappointed, because as the Barrett promo started, I realized that Barrett's gimmick should be - and, in fact, already was during the Nexus - a (movie) Bane gimmick. And now I want Barrett to talk in the Bane Voice and can never not be disappointed that he doesn't.

But anyway, Wade Barrett's long-term, multi-year agenda being destroying the WWE in service of the (Underground Bareknuckle Boxing) League of Shadows. Book it.

Three hours is too long. Two episodes in three weeks where Shawn Michaels and Brock Lesnar are in the same building together and Lesnar doesn't massacre Michaels is insane. Solution: an entire hour next week should be devoted to Brock beating up HBK through an entire arena. Or 45 minutes of Brock doing that, then 15 minutes of HHH cradling a broken Michaels in his arms and crying to the heavens using his acting skills.
Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.14
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    but son of a bitch it's too long.


You can just go ahead and append this to every RAW post from here until they go back to two hours. It doesn't matter how good the show is, three hours is one too many hours. This week was pretty good, with angle advancement and good matches. The only thing that bothered me was something others have pointed out - I don't care that Sheamus stole a car, but I was ready to strangle the King for his refusal to admit it. Hey King, if I take your car for a "joyride," you're cool with that, right? 'Cause I'll bring it right back, absolutely totaled. So we're cool, yeah?

Otherwise, though, I thought the show was solid.

    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    but son of a bitch it's too long.

thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.28
Kane's a heel? I thought Kane had turned somewhere, sometime, in the last few months.

Meltzer said WWE thought Kane was going to win the poll, the fans voting for him because Kane would beat him up.



thecubsfan.com - luchablog
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.13
Ladies and gentlemen, due to entropy, the part of Randy Orton will now be played by Wade Barrett. Please enjoy the show.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.27
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    Kane's a heel? I thought Kane had turned somewhere, sometime, in the last few months.

    Meltzer said WWE thought Kane was going to win the poll, the fans voting for him because Kane would beat him up.


If they seriously think the fans would rather see Kane than Rey, then they don't know their fans. Granted, Punk/Rey was two years ago, its still fresh. Probably not as fresh as Miz/Punk, but still people want to see two sorta babyfaces go at it instead heel/face. Punk won clean and clapped when Rey won the voting, so I have no idea what Punk or the writing staff is trying to do here. If anything, Miz being the IT guy has fallen off a cliff and drowned somewhere in the Pacific.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    Wow, so they really have killed the Raw thread. The Raw thread! The thread about what happened on Monday Night Raw, the most important wrestling show of the week, for this wrestling message board.


So, with geemoney retired (I never said thank you - thank you, Greg!), and RAW at a complain-inducing three hours for the foreseeable future, his does bring up the question of what's to be done regarding the RAW recaps. Are CRZ and the mods already working on a solution? Are there any volunteers? (Don't all get a Randy Orton shoulder injury raising your hands.)

If it's just too much work for one person, and it is, what if the recapping duties gets rotated among several people? If enough people decide, "Hey, I can recap an episode here or there", then weeks or months can go by before you'd have to do it again, and we'd see an interesting variety of recap styles, which could be as entertaining or possibly moreso than RAW itself. That's one idea. And since it's my idea, and as a veteran NXT3 recapper of some repute, I would throw my hat in that ring as occasional RAW recapper.

But recap every week? No, never.



@CMPunk
“@ZackRyder: @CMPunk She played me bro” I got your back.
Spiraling_Shape
Bratwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: PA

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    Kane's a heel? I thought Kane had turned somewhere, sometime, in the last few months.


I think the Punk/Bryan/Kane/AJ storyline "turned" Kane, in that he came out of it being booked as a face without actually turning.

See also: Lord Of The Manor's point up above about non-turns, i.e. Jericho just gradually being happier and not-scowly and working in his Vintage Jericho aspects little by little over the last month and a half.



"Ice cream bars! Ice cream bars!" - RAW crowd, Boston, 7/11/11
Hokienautic
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

Since last post: 13 hours
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.71
I didn't get to see lots of the show (having a newborn tends to cut into your TV time), but can I just say that Chris Jericho knows how to push a feud and build up both people at the same time? No "You suck, and there's no way you're gonna win." Instead, "I won't lie, he's awesome, he's a great competitor ... he's just not Chris Jericho." Great, great job.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 8 hours
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.73
    Originally posted by CRZ
    By the way, I did some rough estimation and came up with a first hour ratio of 43/37/20 which means about 26 minutes of interview/backstage segments, 22 minutes of "match" (which was me being generous and including entrances and postmatch nonsense) and 12 minutes of commercials. Not exactly "can't miss" stuff.


They also seem to go back to announce desk to reset and chill after every single match now, although I could just be imagining it.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    Punk won clean and clapped when Rey won the voting, so I have no idea what Punk or the writing staff is trying to do here.


Punk is a heel pretending to still be a babyface ("I'm the guy everybody likes" or something like that). He will probably fully heel on Cena when they go to a one-on-one feud after the triple threat.

    Originally posted by stevengill87
    @JustinShapiro Please tell me you agree with the above, am I the only one having flashbacks to 2001 here?


2001, like a top babyface becoming the top heel when he still had mileage as a face and everyone still wanted to cheer him? I think Punk will have an easier time getting boos (he already is) because he's such an effective heel and not as ingrained in every fan's DNA like Steve Austin was. But he could also be a reverse Cena where his audience will keep cheering him no matter what. Maybe the idea is to create a reverse polarity Cena and balance the galaxy!

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    I just want to throw the "Food Stamp" out there as an potential alternative.


ooh ooh um "Belly-to-Ryback Suplex" no wait "Food Chain Wrestling Sequence" no wait


    Also, Ryback's messed up eye has to be some kind of color contact at this point, right?


Yeah I think he had the real bloody eye once and they thought he looked cool so now he's just going to have one forever. Which does not speak well to his ocular health at all. Wait, is Ryback supposed to be a cyborg? Imagine a robo-view in that red eye saying THROTTLING 97.4% COMPLETE : : : FINISH IT.

    Originally posted by SS
    I think the Punk/Bryan/Kane/AJ storyline "turned" Kane, in that he came out of it being booked as a face without actually turning.


Yeah, by the letter of the law I'd say Kane turned when Daniel Bryan destroyed him with a bunch of chairshots, although I guess he was still on the heel side of some tag matches after that.

That feud really flipped over the checkers board. Punk went from #1 face to #1 heel. Kane went from heel to face. AJ went from whatever AJ was to empowered female role model babyface AJ Lee. And Daniel Bryan went insane.
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