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The W - Pro Wrestling - Random grumpiness (Jericho, WWE women)
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Lexus
Andouille








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 1462 days
Last activity: 208 days
#1 Posted on
First off, hear hear to Chris Jericho. He isn't afraid anymore of the goofy bastard that get's trash thrown at him when he cheers heels or talks about "workrate" at a live show.

Second, we are all marks, but in a different sence. We ignore the lines of good and bad and pick our favorites and dislikes based on other things, which admittedly, is really fucking weird.

Hell, maybe, just maybe, this could be a part of a plan. Bear with me.

Jericho is a heel. Now, he's saying things that are really weighted with the intent of retort to piss the internet fan base off. No matter how you look at it, all it was was a heel turn.

But goddamn if I'm going to jump on some bandwagon because he insulted "the internet community", a bunch of people that sit at home on a Saturday night just so they can talk about Confidential, then complain about how sexist the WWE is because a few women MADE THE CONCIENSOUS DESICION TO GET MONEY FOR SHOWING OFF THEIR BODY. The sexism comes in when I am not allowed to say something about how I enjoy seeing beautiful women because I'm a man. If a woman said the same thing, there'd have been no problem. Well, allow me to put a different spin on things. I'm 300 lbs., and have a 52 A cup. I have tits, so it's okay if I say I enjoy them. Nyah!

Hell, is it sexist for a woman to talk about how they're pregnant? After all, no man can ever make the same claim, so it's kinda biased from a particular point of view.

And these smarks also look weird too. Hell, Scott Keith is a fat ass with a goofy hairdo. Plain and simple. So what if it's mean; it's honest. If you don't like honesty, I'm sorry. And no, I'm not anti-fat. Like I stated earlier, I'm 300 lbs., so making fun of the fat is okay. And from the pictures I've seen of CRZ, well, he looks like the kinda guy that'd try to buy a cat and get denied (the only reason I say this is because somebody who did look like CRZ tried to buy a cat from my friend Kristen, but she wouldn't give the cat to the person because we COULDN'T DETERMINE IF IT WERE MALE OR FEMALE). Well, at least I can tell that CRZ is male.

Long and short, maybe if we were a bit more appreciative for what the WWE is trying to accomplish, and less likely to bash them pointlessly for every small action, for not pushing your favorite wrestlers, for giving some wrestlers who aren't quite as over as others less ring time, for giving the over wrestlers plenty of ringtime and we say "supression" even though that's who the people who paid to get in want, for critiquing something we know very little about (how much credibility does a baseball analyst have if he's never played baseball, let alone doesn't know how to throw), and for blasting them when they inevitably fail, because we've all failed at one thing or another (most of us would be actually setting foot in the ring).

Peace

(edited by Lexus on 25.6.02 1407)


While working security at a local indy show, I saw Ricky Morton's bare ass, and the next time I hear anybody out there say "playing Ricky Morton", the person they mention had best have a really nice ass.
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spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 3069 days
Last activity: 404 days
#2 Posted on
Actually Lexus, three of the most famous and respected baseball voices of all time never played the game on a professional level. Harry Caray, Jack Brickhouse, and the recently departed Jack Buck all were broadcasters who became famous for baseball. The argument that in order to be able to critique the activity one must have engaged in seems spurious when it comes to any sort of performance art, as my ability to discern when I enjoy something or not is in no way diminished by whether or not I have ever stepped into a wrestling ring.



Anyone remember the joy of seeing him bash the Undertaker's motorcycle with his sledgemhammer and doing no damage and being all like, "Mjolnir will not break thine cycle? I say thee NAY!" and dumping it off the stage. - Enojado Viento says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.
Ubermonkeys
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02
From: Michigan

Since last post: 6962 days
Last activity: 6836 days
#3 Posted on
Yikes.



Go on... touch it.

Lexus
Andouille








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 1462 days
Last activity: 208 days
#4 Posted on
Ah, but the enjoyment of an activity is one thing. Saying that it's done wrong or right is another.



While working security at a local indy show, I saw Ricky Morton's bare ass, and the next time I hear anybody out there say "playing Ricky Morton", the person they mention had best have a really nice ass.
VK Wallstreet
Goetta








Since: 18.6.02
From: New York, NY, USA

Since last post: 7782 days
Last activity: 7781 days
#5 Posted on
Well, I think the problem at hand is thinking about this stuff too much. You know, it's entertainment. World Wrestling Entertainment! The people you and Jericho are bashing are certainly guilty of overthinking it. But so are you -- just in a different way.

They question everything just for the hell of questioning it. But you're saying we should accept everything just for the hell of accepting it. If I don't enjoy watching Jericho -- and I must clarify that this is just a convenient example; Jericho rocks the house -- why should I have to pretend I enjoyed it? What's the point in that? Why do I owe anybody my dishonesty? They don't put on these shows for my benefit. They put them on for money and ego.

If I enjoy something, I'll say it. If I don't, I'll say that, too. I don't think "ignoring the lines of good and bad" to pick favorites is so weird. What IS weird is the whole concept of "picking favorites." You don't pick! It just happens! I think Chris Jericho, a heel, is damned entertaining. I can sit here and try to make myself think otherwise, but it ain't going to work. Appropriately enough, I think he's generally unentertaining as a babyface, though I usually enjoy his matches no matter what his affiliation. There's nothing I can do about any of it. We're not children here -- well, at least not all of us. We shouldn't have to be told what to like and what not to like along simplistic lines. And it's fiction, so that makes it OK to like the bad guys, just like in movies.

Also, anybody who thinks WWE isn't sexist is lying to themselves. Listen, I can go and marry a woman who tolerates being slapped around because it feeds her deflated sense of self-worth, but that doesn't mean it's not spousal abuse. You say you should be able to say you like to see beautiful women, and you should. But that doesn't mean it's right for WWE to display them in that light. I don't think pornography is sexist, by the way, because it exists for the express purpose of giving the user sexual gratification. If Vince McMahon wants to say, "OK, we're producing pornography," more power to him. But the pretense is these are real women in realistic situations, and they're all playthings or evil because they won't be playthings, so it's sexism.

Seeing pictures of Internet wrestling personalities always makes me feel just a little bit better about myself. Though I must admit I did have Scott Keith's haircut when I was in second grade.

I will never, EVER use the term "smark" in any context. First, it's stupid. It means "smart," a term nobody really uses anymore. You don't have to put the "mark" in there because it's redundant. Smarts are by definition marks. Second, I've tried to research this with little success, but I INSIST it was invented by Scott Keith. I specifically remember him coming up with it and writing this big thing about how "I'm going to use the word 'smark' now because blah blah blah." My mind may be playing tricks on me, though.

In conclusion, Jericho rules!



"The Giant?! The Giant! No! No! No! No! Can't be! Naaaaaaaaaaaah!"
BigTim2002
Pinkelwurst








Since: 30.5.02
From: Sonoma, CA

Since last post: 7852 days
Last activity: 7769 days
#6 Posted on
Jericho is just frustrated that he's being held back. I would be, too.....SUCKA~!



"Big" Tim Livingston-Resident Smart Mark and CRZ admirer!

I mark for these peoples: Benoit, RVD, Guerrero, Saturn, Storm, Kawada, Misawa, Mutoh, Chris Daniels, and Chris Jericho...your hero and mine.

Yous guys remember when THEY BE CLUBBERIN, TONY~!????
The Amazing Salami
Sujuk








Since: 23.5.02
From: Oklahoma

Since last post: 7231 days
Last activity: 7230 days
#7 Posted on
To quote Garth:

"I feel.....weird."



The Amazing Salami Still Lives~!
Lexus
Andouille








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 1462 days
Last activity: 208 days
#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by VK Wallstreet
    Also, anybody who thinks WWE isn't sexist is lying to themselves. Listen, I can go and marry a woman who tolerates being slapped around because it feeds her deflated sense of self-worth, but that doesn't mean it's not spousal abuse. You say you should be able to say you like to see beautiful women, and you should. But that doesn't mean it's right for WWE to display them in that light. I don't think pornography is sexist, by the way, because it exists for the express purpose of giving the user sexual gratification. If Vince McMahon wants to say, "OK, we're producing pornography," more power to him. But the pretense is these are real women in realistic situations, and they're all playthings or evil because they won't be playthings, so it's sexism.


But the main thing is, as you just pointed out, it's fiction. It may be a realistic situation, but it's not reality. Besides, wrestling always used a pretty large basis of surreality to everything they do.

And there is a vast difference between spousal abuse and a woman making money by looking pretty. I for one don't like the thought of getting hit in the face repeatedly by a supposed dominant figure, but if somebody would pay me even a nickle for one of many pictures that were taken of me at Homecoming '99 after I passed out wearing my friend's mom's t-shirt (I usually wear a XXXL) with my ass painted yellow (I don't understand it either, I was drunk and passed out), I'd jump at the chance.

Besides, if memory serves me correctly (the WWE doesn't mention collegiate accomplishments unless they were football), Stacy Kiebler, Trish Stratus, and Torrie Wilson, three of the biggest sex symbols in WWE, have degrees of some sort. Why are they shaking their money makers if they have that kind of intelligence UNLESS the inherently intelligent thing to do would be menial work (they look pretty) for boss pay.



While working security at a local indy show, I saw Ricky Morton's bare ass, and the next time I hear anybody out there say "playing Ricky Morton", the person they mention had best have a really nice ass.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 5431 days
Last activity: 5365 days
#9 Posted on
"Well, I think the problem at hand is thinking about this stuff too much. You know, it's entertainment. World Wrestling Entertainment! The people you and Jericho are bashing are certainly guilty of overthinking it. But so are you -- just in a different way."

And rather low-brow entertainment about that. I tihnk the internet community as a whole suffers from the following ailment: as intelligent people, we become somewhat alarmed at finding such pleasure in a seemingly simplistic and lowest-common-denominator form of entertainment. Therefore, in order to justify said enjoyment, we invest all these intelligent ideas and theories in the world of wrestling, when in reality the only intelligence to be found wrestling as a product has been created by us fans, and NOT the people peforming. A little long-winded, I know, but read it twice and it SHOULD make sense.

Oh, and good post, Lexus. Damn good post.








Old School's Film Quote O' The Week-"Five-foot-nine, I didn't know they stacked shit that high"-R. Lee Ermey as Gunnery Sgt. Hartman, Full Metal Jacket. He obviously hasn't met Tazz.

ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 2178 days
Last activity: 2166 days
#10 Posted on
Sexist? Maybe. But they knew what they were getting into when they signed the contract. It's not like this was some big surprise that they are expected to show skin on some occasions. And one thing I do question is this, if someone like Stacy or Torrie doesn't like her current role as eye candy, why doesn't she make some effort to learn how to wrestle? Trish Stratus has, and she is rewarded with actual wrestling matches (I know, she also gets some non-wrestling matches too, but that's part of the package and she knows that. Besides, how else will you keep the Stacy's and Terri's involved). If Stacy and Torrie are not interested in wrestling, what could their interest possibly be if not to be eye candy? There really isn't another role in the professional wrestling business. As Lexus pointed out, there are MANY, MANY other things to do besides professional wrestling.

This whole thing, at least to me, is like a Hooters girl complaining about the outfit. It's not like they didn't know what they would be wearing before they signed up. And their are plenty of places to go to be a waitress and not have to wear such a outfit. So I'm not going to get all upset about the sexist aspect of Hooters so I can be offended on someone else's behalf (who if they don't want to be there, they SHOULDN'T be there). (The same thing could be said if they ever develop a male equivalent to Hooters. It's fine by me, even if that would ALSO be sexist).

And I think sometimes things are taken out of context to present examples of sexism, that really wasn't at the end of the day. For example, many site the Trish barking like a dog segment as sexism. Taken by itself, it was. But follow the storyline, she only did that to fool Vince into thinking she was loyal (and into a sense of overconfidence), only (along with Linda) to swerve Vince during a match with Shane I believe and help cost Vince a big match. In the end, it was Trish who got the last laugh, as she was just fooling Vince all along. As a storyline, it sounds like female empowerment to me.
Fantomas
Polska kielbasa








Since: 23.2.02
From: New York

Since last post: 7837 days
Last activity: 6433 days
#11 Posted on
On a slight tangent... Is anyone else slipping 'back into the closet', so to speak? Wrestling's popularity has waned and I am now being looked at funny by my non wrestling fan peers for still watching. Yeah the stories and acting are by and large beyond shitty, but I still enjoy the actual art of pro wrestling. Anyone else starting to feel that vibe, of wrestling once again not being 'cool'??

And I don't think there's any question, WWE's portrayal of women is very sexist.
Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 7033 days
Last activity: 5453 days
#12 Posted on
Well Lexus you seem to take offense of me defending women wrestling in you last girls for TnA post. Maybe I was a little hard, but you say you weren't allowed to say what you think in peace, but then in your last post and this one you stated that anyone that disagrees with you should get the Scarlette Letter "S" printed on there forhead.

Look I have no problem with sex appeal, I have no problem with the girls doing bikini shoots for magazines, I have no problem with them doing lingerie shoots, I have no problem with have WWFdivas.com up. They are beautiful.

Maybe some girls are there just to be on cable TV, I truly think those women are divas of the past that just won't get over as much anymore (see Torrie Wilson). I look at Trish and yes she went to college, and guess what SHe likes Wrestling, always has, read shoot interviews from her, she likes the athletism, she likes performing in front of people, and I'm sure she likes acting out Good storylines. So just because she got into it we can't question angles and gimmicks she does? I'm a Trish Stratus fan (we allowed to be fans right?) and in my opinion the best thing for Trish' charcter isn't being in mud matches. That's my opinion on Trish much like we have opinions on a lot of men or women in Wrestling.

I think a legit women division could work, I truly do. A WWE cruiserwieght division never worked but we still hold out hope and think if done right it will. I'll tell you something a real women division had more flashes of greatness and getting over in this past year then the light-weights had.

Oldschoolhero- sorry I give wrestling a bit more credit, I love seeing RVD's amazing athletisim, I found it funny as hell when Goldust did his croc hunter on Raw, I find the heel Austin or a Kurt Angle character the most enjoyable in television. Is it silly at times ya but *I* liked them. I DON'T Big Show in the toilet farting and someone doing fart jokes, I find that lame, does that make me a smark... On second thought, I couldn't figure out if you were being sarcastic or not??

Well while I'm hiting on all the points, I also think it's perfectly fine for us to comment on what we like and what we don't like. Listen to AM radio , that's all it is, either with politics or sports. In WWE case we mix the two ... Ya if you hate EVERYTHING about it maybe you should stop watching, but if there is some stuff you like and if you come back there has to be state it along with the negativity.

I'm personally getting really tired of this 'you are a "smark" talk'. We are all on a wrestling board with most of us with hundred of posts to our name. It's tiring hearing if like women in-ring work wresling, you follow the smarks (umm what, most net writers are too snobby to even give the girls the benefit of the doubt). You dont' like fart jokes your a wrestling snob? (can't it be I just don't find bathroom humor funny, but enjoy a lot of different type of humor)

(edited by Net Hack Slasher on 25.6.02 1716)


I don't get it, everyone loves rats, but they don't want to drink the rats milk?
Debaser
Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

Since last post: 7899 days
Last activity: 7864 days
#13 Posted on
I think Blake Norton over on 411 covered the Jericho situation quite adequetely. Provided, of course, it's not a complete work, as others have stated.

"But the pretense is these are real women in realistic situations, and they're all playthings or evil because they won't be playthings, so it's sexism."

Que? The most common female character in the WWE is the slutty vamp HEEL who clings to Vince McMahon for his money. Trish is only occasionally gratuitous in her sexuality, and Lita never is.

And the pretense of wrestling is almost never that these are real anyone in realistic situations. I mean you might as well accuse the WWE of claiming that being a burn victim grants you supernatural powers.

As for Fantomas' question: None of my friends have ever really been more than the casualest of wrestling fans, so my situation never changed signifigantly. Those who know me well enough to know I watch (I've never been a t-shirt guy) just consider it some sort of inexplicable personality quirk.
Ubermonkeys
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02
From: Michigan

Since last post: 6962 days
Last activity: 6836 days
#14 Posted on
I tihnk the internet community as a whole suffers from the following ailment: as intelligent people

I have nothing to say about that. I just wanted to quote it.

What I'm still trying to figure out is, WHY THE FUCK CAN'T CRZ HAVE A KITTY?

Praise be to those able to, at the very least, think clearly enough to respond to the rest of the post that started this thread. It was just like, shit...

And from the pictures I've seen of CRZ, well, he looks like the kinda guy that'd try to buy a cat and get denied (the only reason I say this is because somebody who did look like CRZ tried to buy a cat from my friend Kristen, but she wouldn't give the cat to the person because we COULDN'T DETERMINE IF IT WERE MALE OR FEMALE). Well, at least I can tell that CRZ is male.

OH COME THE FUCK ON! Did that REALLY have SHIT to do with ANYTHING? God DAMN.




Go on... touch it.

VK Wallstreet
Goetta








Since: 18.6.02
From: New York, NY, USA

Since last post: 7782 days
Last activity: 7781 days
#15 Posted on

    Originally, this was posted by Debaser!
    "But the pretense is these are real women in realistic situations, and they're all playthings or evil because they won't be playthings, so it's sexism."

    Que? The most common female character in the WWE is the slutty vamp HEEL who clings to Vince McMahon for his money. Trish is only occasionally gratuitous in her sexuality, and Lita never is.



Yeah, you know, come to think of it, Lita is actually not an awful portrayal of a woman. But everybody else is still abysmal. In any event, I never said being a slut automatically makes you a babyface -- I said NOT being a slut makes you a heel. Huh, except for Lita. Why does Lita get a free pass, anyway?

I also wanted to clarify something else: I never said I feel sorry for the WWE divas who are being exploited. They DID know what they were getting into. I feel sorry for the other 3 billion women who get looked down upon by impressionable adolescent wrestling fans because Vince taught them females are second-class citizens. (Well, you can forget about the 2 billion or so women who are literally second-class citizens anyway ...)



"The Giant?! The Giant! No! No! No! No! Can't be! Naaaaaaaaaaaah!"
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 2178 days
Last activity: 2166 days
#16 Posted on
I shudder to think that adolescents are getting their morals from Vince McMahon. Hell, I shudder to think that adolescents are getting their morals from the entertainment industry in general. Hopefully, parents are doing a better job than letting TV raise their children. I know that sometimes (probably too many times) that's not the case, but I still would blame the parent. They're ultimately responsible for teaching kids about morals, values, etc. (And by the way, there is almost nothing moral about wrestling or entertaiment, it doesn't stop at just sexism, there's violence, vulgarity, sex, sex, and more sex, and even racism. Judging things strictly on moral grounds, I just don't see how anyone can watch wrestling)

I DO have confidence in women that they will set those men who have the wrong idea straight! Of course, I don't look at them as victims, and I certainly don't look at them as if they are second-class citizens.
Lexus
Andouille








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 1462 days
Last activity: 208 days
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by Net Hack Slasher
    Well Lexus you seem to take offense of me defending women wrestling in you last girls for TnA post. Maybe I was a little hard, but you say you weren't allowed to say what you think in peace, but then in your last post and this one you stated that anyone that disagrees with you should get the Scarlette Letter "S" printed on there forhead.


Sorry, but I disagree.

I have come for intelligent conversation, and one of the most important concepts inherant in intelligent conversation is that I'm not trying to prove others wrong, but rather tempting others to prove me wrong. After all, what's to learn in being right all the time?

By the way, I was a HUGE Bull Nakano mark.



While working security at a local indy show, I saw Ricky Morton's bare ass, and the next time I hear anybody out there say "playing Ricky Morton", the person they mention had best have a really nice ass.
Aphrodites Reflection
Chipolata








Since: 18.6.02
From: Atlanta GA

Since last post: 7681 days
Last activity: 7678 days
#18 Posted on
I believe that some people are missing the point. The fact that Trish, Stacy and others are voluntarily agreeing to being exploited doesn't make that exploitation any more or less acceptable. Chances are you can always find someone who will do just about anything for money. They are of course allowed to do it, since they are reponsible adults who can make decisions for themselves. However, using the defense that since Trish and Stacy haven't left yet it obviously isn't sexist is just naive as well as insulting.

Consider the (recent) history of WWE/F women. Think back on even the best of female wrestlers in the WWE, the likes of Lita, Chyna, and Sable. Even these women still had sexual gimmicks at the heart of their characters, and often it overshadowed their wrestling abilities. Lita, however non-slutty she is, always shows off her thong, and the King always makes a big deal of it. Sable was one of the most popular women's wrestlers in recent history, and she barely wore a top. Chyna was so big into her actual skills that she would wrestle and beat men, but still her outfits were all about T&A. I realize women are beautiful, and desirable, and those are good things. But it is still a shame to see the very top of the women's talent relying on sexual gimmicks to get them over and get them TV time.

You may think the WWE is sexist, you may think it isn't. But don't claim that Stacy still being around proves that it isn't. That is just plain silly.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 3 days
ICQ:  
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by Lexus
    And from the pictures I've seen of CRZ, well, he looks like the kinda guy that'd try to buy a cat and get denied (the only reason I say this is because somebody who did look like CRZ tried to buy a cat from my friend Kristen, but she wouldn't give the cat to the person because we COULDN'T DETERMINE IF IT WERE MALE OR FEMALE). Well, at least I can tell that CRZ is male.
Hey! I'm a VERY HANDSOME MAN

See?



©CRZ™
Visit [slash] wrestling
zhixel
Cotto








Since: 26.3.02
From: Culpeper, VA

Since last post: 7318 days
Last activity: 7024 days
#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by CRZ
    Hey! I'm a VERY HANDSOME MAN



There's something really hardcore disturbing about that picture to me. Even more so if you showed up to buy a cat wearing that.



#1 KOFFING~! mark
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The Horsemen DVD is really great especially when they rip into people like Luger and Paul Romo. The extras are good, but they good have done more with it. The documentary is top notch.
- lotjx, Good WWE DVDs? (2008)
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