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The W - Random - Question regarding a fairly common phrase.
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Deputy Marshall
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Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.45
I was talking to a friend of mine and she used a phrase that has since been driving me nuts.

Is it "that's a given" or "that's a give in"? I tried to just f'n google it, with no luck. I'd always assumed it was "given".

I know this is a useless thread, but this is seriously bothering me and if anyone can help me out here, it's a fellow W or two.



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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
On wikipedia, they will sometimes do a popularity check on google to see what kind of phrasing is most popular. Basically just how many results each one gets.
"that's a given": 229,000 results
"that's a give in": 76 results

Not that popularity necessarily tells which is right, but that's a pretty huge differential.

Which one really depends on what you are trying to say:
45. give in,
a. to acknowledge defeat; yield.
b. to hand in; deliver: Please give in your timecards.

given
noun
8. an established fact, condition, factor, etc.

I've always thought it was a given, ie something that both sides agree is true.




Jim Smith
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Since: 17.10.04
From: Bloomington, IL

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.12
It's typical in mathematical proofs and logic to refer to something that is already known as a "given," e.g., "Given that p is true and q is p, q must also be true." I would assume the use of the phrase in common language originates from this.

Much like "bold-faced lie" vs. "bald-faced lie," it wouldn't be impossible to rationalize both versions. But in this case I think "that's a given" is the intended phrase and "that's a give in" is a corruption used by people who don't understand the former.
Deputy Marshall
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Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.51
That's what I had always assumed; good to know I'm right (we think). Thanks guys.



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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
Sometimes that isn't so clear cut, though.


"Would've" 5,130,000
"Would of" 1,300,000
"would have" 256,000,000

"Would of" is clearly wrong, yet very popular.

I'd say in my experience that most people are actually saying Would've, but it seems like they are typing Would have.




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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    Sometimes that isn't so clear cut, though.


    "Would've" 5,130,000
    "Would of" 1,300,000
    "would have" 256,000,000

    "Would of" is clearly wrong, yet very popular.

    I'd say in my experience that most people are actually saying Would've, but it seems like they are typing Would have.
"Woulda" 2,900,000



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Since: 2.1.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
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Since: 17.11.02

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
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Since: 2.1.02

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.84
I had this arguement years ago with 'Fuckin Aye (or A)' and 'Fuck an Egg'.
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
There are all whole bunch of improper things people say. Usually it's because it's not a word they're familiar with, or they mishear it.
Some people say "mute point" instead of "moot point".
The song from the Navy is called "Anchors Aweigh", not "Anchors Away".
You do something with "bated breath", not "baited breath".
You are at someone's "beck and call", not "beckon call".
Some are more common mistakes than others though.
Someone who cheats at cards is supposed to be a "cardsharp", not a card shark.
So says Common Errors in English Usage (The W at Amazon).




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Since: 16.3.04
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.21
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    I had this arguement years ago with 'Fuckin Aye (or A)' and 'Fuck an Egg'.


I've always thought it was fuckin eh. Ahh well.




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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    There are all whole bunch of improper things people say. Usually it's because it's not a word they're familiar with, or they mishear it.
    Some people say "mute point" instead of "moot point".
    The song from the Navy is called "Anchors Aweigh", not "Anchors Away".
    You do something with "bated breath", not "baited breath".
    You are at someone's "beck and call", not "beckon call".
    Some are more common mistakes than others though.
    Someone who cheats at cards is supposed to be a "cardsharp", not a card shark.
    So says Common Errors in English Usage (The W at Amazon).

Here, here. ;)



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Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.05

Now I was completely with you right up until that last example. How about the same reference source on "card shark" (dictionary.reference.com), indicating synonymous terms? Or this one (phrases.org.uk) from Britan, discussing both as possible parallel development -- advocating acceptability of both. And yet another (itre.cis.upenn.edu) about the not-necessarily clear etymology of the respective terms.

And I always thougt it was "fuckin' A", but have never had a clue why.
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
Well, as you may have heard, the primary job of a dictionary is describe common usages, not to tell whether one usage is more correct than another.

I don't have any definitive proof one way or another. By way of circumstantial evidence I present http://www.takeourword.com/Issue015.html .
http://www.chrisabraham.com/2006/07/card_sharp_and.html claims that the two words are in fact different (depending upon whether a person takes your money because he or she is simply better than you, or whether he or she is cheating).

I don't care much about it either way, I just wanted to list something that I read that most people were saying improperly. A better example would be that most people pronounce flaccid wrong (it's of Latin origin, and should be pronounced with a hard c, no pun intended).




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