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The W - Pro Wrestling - Puder defeats Angle? (Page 2)
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Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 3554 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
This reminded me of a divasearch moment. Remember Summerslam Dodgeball when Michelle (I think that was her name, tall athletic blonde) did her impression of a p*ssed off Pip form South Park by single handily eliminating the entire current Diva side... She must be some gym teacher or something, she looked like a pro. But it made the current girls look kinda bad and the next day she was eliminated. Could have been a coincidence, or not.

Rule 1, don't show up the current talent which that UFC almost did to Kurt... But seeing all the recent cuts and the winner having a million dollar contract, maybe being able to protect yourself by having a legit fighting background will be a necessity.



smark/net attack wienerville advisory holds at ORANGE alert - High (JBL is STILL WWE champion and now smarks arch enemy HHH is the World Champion. Major red threat, but the undercard seems okay. The alert holds... for now)- 9/19
KaneRobot
4-time W of the Day!








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2390 days
Last activity: 1682 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
    Originally posted by Weevil
    In this case Angle didn't tap so he won, fair and square.


Except for the fact that his shoulders may not have been down. I just saw a (admittedly low quality) replay of it and it didn't look like both shoulderblades were down until the ref slapped the mat for the third time. The only way I could really spin this to Angle's advantage would be that in amateur wrestling you only need them down to slap the mat once...but obviously they were doing a "pro" count since it was slapped three times. That also leads me to believe this wasn't necessarily just a straight up amateur match as everyone automatically assumes. If it was a normal amateur match the ref would have stopped it as soon as he got his arm and likely called a "potentially dangerous." Guess they should have thought it out better before putting Angle in there with someone who knew what they were doing.


*Edit*

Scherer updated pwinsider.com with some news on it..."ticked off would probably be the best way to describe (Angle's) mood (backstage)," "Angle was made to look so bad since Puder just reacted to the situation and could have forced Angle to submit had the referees not thought quickly and counted a pin that wasn’t there on Puder."

(edited by KaneRobot on 6.11.04 1711)

Jim Smith
Goetta








Since: 17.10.04
From: Bloomington, IL

Since last post: 2264 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
    Originally posted by KaneRobot
      Originally posted by Weevil
      In this case Angle didn't tap so he won, fair and square.


    Except for the fact that his shoulders may not have been down.


Except that wrestling is fake and your shoulders are down if the referee says they're down. In the end Puder was close enough to being pinned for WWE to spin it as a pinfall, and Angle hadn't started tapping so there's no way to spin it as a submission. And since it's wrestling, all that matters is the spin, not reality.

(I wholeheartedly concede that, from what I've read, Angle would have needed to tap very soon to prevent an injury. But he didn't. You don't lose a wrestling match or a shoot fight by being in so much pain that really should tap out, you lose by actually tapping out. Alternately the ref could stop the match to save you from further punishment, but in this case the ref was in cohoots with Angle, so that wouldn't have happened.)

I'm not taking anything away from Puder's performance, but he was trying to win a real fight in a fake sport, so Angle got the fake win. Does it make Angle the better man? Not really, but it does make him the official winner of the match.
Deputy Marshall
Liverwurst








Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 day
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.72
    Originally posted by Jim Smith
    Alternately the ref could stop the match to save you from further punishment, but in this case the ref was in cohoots with Angle, so that wouldn't have happened.)



A very easy joke could be made referencing the Montreal incident. I won't, though. Thankfully.

    Originally posted by Jim Smith
    I'm not taking anything away from Puder's performance, but he was trying to win a real fight in a fake sport, so Angle got the fake win. Does it make Angle the better man? Not really, but it does make him the official winner of the match.


True, but it's just more fun to talk about what happened.

Honestly, I didn't think when I watched Smackdown on Thursday that his shoulders were down. Looking back at it...how COULD his shoulders have been down? I mean, logically speaking, his shoulders couldn't be all the way down on the mat while he simultaneously had Angle in a keylock submission, right?

As to the earlier discussion of whether or not Meltzer's right when he says they missed out on a money angle...although the UFC isn't quite setting the sports world on fire yet, there sure as Hell were a lot of people chanting it.

To be honest, I feel that Angle was foolish, and maybe arrogant, to agree to this. Eight years ago he was the best freestyle wrestler in the world, but that was eight years ago. Angle, as much as I like him, should not have tried to shoot with someone who's active in MMA, even if it could've been edited out. Then again, 99% of the audience wouldn't know the difference anyway, so it really doesn't matter. That being said, Angle's lucky it didn't turn into a disastrous embarrassment.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 6.11.04 1902)


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Snookum
Kishke








Since: 19.6.03
From: Louisville

Since last post: 2603 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.71
Looking around on the internet - because I'm no expect about the keylock position - Puder did not get Angle into the traditional keylock position referred to in judo (which would essentially bring the arm behind Angle's back if done properly) until after the three count had started

I just rewatched the match again. After much horsing around that didn't really add up to anything, Puder gets Angle's right arm into a lock that looks like the beginning of a keylock, only with Angle's fist at his chest instead of away from it as would be the proper way to do the move.

Once Puder did this, Angle threw Puder down. Angle may have seen what was coming and decided to stop playing around and get on with it. The ref started counting as Puder's shoulders hit the mat. Angle then lifts up on one of Puder's leg and turns Puder over so that both of Puder's shoulders are firmly on the mat.

Puder managed to get Angle's arm behind his back at the 1-count thanks to Angle's move, but because he's having to push up to accomplish this, both shoulders are clearly down on the mat (although admittedly, it could have been a case where his loose t-shirt made his shoulders appear down when they might not have been fully down). Puder clearly gives up on the move at the 2-count as you can see his whole body relax, as if he couldn't keep the hold any longer. If there had been a delay in the count, Angle still would have won.

In all honestly, I'm not seeing the money angle on this. It just looked fouled up by both men, and I blame the writers at WWE for throwing them both into a situation that made them both look bad. These kids shouldn't even be in the ring in front of an audience yet, much more doing things with the heavy-hitters of the show. WWE lucked out in having Angle in there, to be honest. At least he could get a pin that looked like a pin there.
brahma_bull512
Medisterpoelse








Since: 7.11.04

Since last post: 3602 days
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#26 Posted on
http://www.bjjfighter.com/techniques/gi/guard/gi_kimora_guard%5B1%5D.html


Angle almost got his arm ripped out of it's socket.

Not smart to go live/unscripted with a shoot fighter vs. a professional wrestler.

(edited by brahma_bull512 on 7.11.04 0138)
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 31 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.89
I'm surprised that Meltzer of all people would think that this could be any kind of a "money angle". I can't see too many UFC guys jumping up and down at the chance to fake fights on WWF tv while Trish walks on all fours barking like a dog during the match. These guys take what they do very seriously, and to go to 'fake fighting' would probably get the same reaction from peers that an amateur wrestler gets when he says he likes pro-rasslin.

Who from the UFC would do honestly it, and more importantly who would pay to see UFC guys fake fight against Spike Dudley?


Tribal Prophet
Weevil
Polska kielbasa








Since: 19.3.02
From: Ireland

Since last post: 3179 days
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#28 Posted on
His shoulders looked down to me, especially as pro wrestling has a pretty loose definition of it.

Also the ref was probably told to count as soon as the shoulders were plausibly down even if Angle was in complete control. Otherwise we would have ended up with Angle taking five minutes to force the guy's shoulder down literally on the mat.



It's all wrestling. You don't understand it, you don't like it. Why should you? Wrestling is for everybody, you included, but not exclusively. It may not be your wrestling but it's wrestling to somebody somewhere.
NickBockwinkelFan
Frankfurter








Since: 10.4.02
From: New York City, NY

Since last post: 887 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00




"Well, you can't involve friendship with business. It has to be one or the other. It's either business or friendship, or hit the bricks!"
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chzkildare
Loukanika








Since: 21.10.04
From: Oshkosh WI

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
indeed.





Is that gasoline I smell?
Pimpstress
Tocino








Since: 17.5.04
From: Philadelphia, PA

Since last post: 2570 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.71
I'm sure Puder would be **reaaaaaallly** popular backstage with the actual wrestlers for trying to make one of them look like an ass during a program. If he doesn't get axed from the competition, that might be entertaining to find out just how bad everyone ends up screwing with him.

I don't understand why you would potentially offer $1 million to a kid who, not even knee-deep in the business, tries to seriously injure another performer in the ring to make himself look good. Damn right Angle would be pissed. If you had neck surgery and took a leave of absence not all that long ago, you'd be pretty furious if some little punk ass who hasn't paid his dues and has no respect for the entertainment / "fake" aspect of sports entertainment tried to injur you to make a name for himself. If the kid is all hardcore UFC / MMA, then he should have stuck with that. He strikes me as a little asshole who wants the fame and the money any way he can get it without caring whose career he may damage in the process. I'd get his Tito Ortiz Wannabee ass outta there post haste.
sentonBOMB
Frankfurter








Since: 25.11.02
From: Jersey

Since last post: 1938 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.88
    Originally posted by Pimpstress
    I'm sure Puder would be **reaaaaaallly** popular backstage with the actual wrestlers for trying to make one of them look like an ass during a program. If he doesn't get axed from the competition, that might be entertaining to find out just how bad everyone ends up screwing with him.

    I don't understand why you would potentially offer $1 million to a kid who, not even knee-deep in the business, tries to seriously injure another performer in the ring to make himself look good. Damn right Angle would be pissed. If you had neck surgery and took a leave of absence not all that long ago, you'd be pretty furious if some little punk ass who hasn't paid his dues and has no respect for the entertainment / "fake" aspect of sports entertainment tried to injur you to make a name for himself. If the kid is all hardcore UFC / MMA, then he should have stuck with that. He strikes me as a little asshole who wants the fame and the money any way he can get it without caring whose career he may damage in the process. I'd get his Tito Ortiz Wannabee ass outta there post haste.


It IS a little strange, though, that they'd put these kids in the ring with Angle. I wonder to what extent they briefed them on the encounter before it happened.
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

Since last post: 2480 days
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AIM:  
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.69
these thigs are fascinating to watch.
I dunno, while this tough enough and the diva thing are bad ideas that won't draw money, I'm digging throwing reality into the scripted world. Like when the diva contestants cussed each other out that night, that was good tv.

as far as the shoot, one: Puder is to small, he won't make it.
with the rest: I dunno what WWE is thinking. Angle apparently was really arrogant in getting in there in front of the audience with nothing arranged.
Angle certainly didn't look like he was in pain, it's hard to say if he would have tapped or not a few seconds in the hold longer.
Puder's shoulders were down, but he was clearly in UFC mode not wrestling mode.
About the angle aspect of it, Angle is the top heel and will prolly headline WM. Puder is a reality show contestant, there's only so much you can do with that.

I get with Puder that he really thinks he can beat anyone's ass. This could be interesting over the next few weeks if the don't start regulating this more.
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3522 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.40
They probably didn't tell them anyting. At least in the Tough Enough TV show, wrestlers would pop in all the time, talk and then do some ring work with them. In the shows, you got the idea that they were teaching them before hand and then doing the ring work for that week. In this one, it just seems they are throwing those kids in each week without any real training before they go on Smackdown. I would hope they are doing some ring work, but it doesn't look that way. I do think getting these people in that ring without any real idea of what is going on is going to get one if not more of these kids hurt. Thankfully, Vince had them sign a waiver before, so its their own fault for getting the ring with Kurt, Big Show and Torrie.

I would imagine that the wrestlers would take care of the tough enough kids, but with that MMA kid I don't think its going to be vice versa. Perhaps shoving Hardcore out there and teach him a lesson will get the necessary effect. I would rather them just kill these types of contest considering you are cutting a chunk of the roster mostly veterans and then givnig a green newbie a million bucks, I can only imagine the hatred in that locker room right now.



"All faith reguires is giving into the possibility of hope."
Alessandro
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Worcester MA

Since last post: 48 days
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.04
I like Hyatte's take on the matter ...

    Originally posted by Hyatte
    Do I havevsome thoughts on this whole Angle/Puder "situation"? Suuuure:

    First of all... you're are ALL idiots.

    No, you are dumb fucks.

    Look, anyone who HONESTLY believes that the WWE dropped a HUGE money angle by blowing off this silly Daniel Puder/Kurt Angle confrontation simply... SIMPLY needs to stop taking David Meltzer as the gospel... and get out of your fucking houses... and get a fucking clue.



(edited by Alessandro on 8.11.04 1315)

(edited by thecubsfan on 8.11.04 1225)

Alessandro "Hercules" Boondy


Just take a flannel shirt and paint it red,
Then draw a chicken on it, with two poker-dice for eyes,
An' have it wavin' razors round its head ...






thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 15 hours
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Previous post edit explaination: I love Hyatte as much as Hyatte loves Avril, but that's an awful long quote and insidepulse can't afford to be losing the hits.

ObTopic: This is only a big deal because Dave and others of his ilk seem to be fascinated by pointless (and PWI-esque) "Who would win a real fight!" discussions, and the guy they were pretty sure would win 'em all just got beat by some nobody.

Screw Tough Enough (please), it's about the last mark dreams of the last people you'd call marks being shattered in a pointless exhibition that'd be forgetton by most people in a week if Dave hadn't talked them into doing something with (and I only assume they will now.) If he can't beat a unknown UFC guy, can we really believe that Kurt Angle would be able to take beat Andre the Giant in a K-1 match?!?!?! What does it all mean?

Actually, the point is Tough Enough sure does suck.

(edited by thecubsfan on 8.11.04 1227)

thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2806 days
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.00
"Actually, the point is Tough Enough sure does suck."

Eh, I don't know. It's not as bad as the Diva Search, where the competitors basically made fools of themselves. In two weeks, we've had two "huge" internet controversies. The first week we had guys who apparently wouldn't/didn't sell Big Show's bodyslams, and week two gave us the now infamous Puder-Angle showdown. And week 3 will give us "The Torrie Wilson Sex Test," and God only know s WHAT that will be. So yeah it sucks in some ways, but controversy doesn't suck.
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 15 hours
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Okay, how about: It sucks as entertaining television.



thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
Pimpstress
Tocino








Since: 17.5.04
From: Philadelphia, PA

Since last post: 2570 days
Last activity: 2480 days
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.71
I don't know how much of a HUGE money angle a real shoot fight between Puder and Kurt Angle would be. In light of all of the talent that has been cut from the roster this past week, I doubt that the WWE would want to take a risk on making one of their most bankable and sound investments look like a blithering idiot. Let's face it, the WWE has been at a loss for ideas and between this Diva crap, the Tough Enough crap and Taboo Tuesday, this is the most subtle way that they can actually say "Hey, we have no fucking ideas left whatsoever. Here's some crap. Pick out what you like from there and we'll put it on if it we can figure out a way to make it work."

Even though I think Taboo Tuesday was planned to a certain degree (Come on! Who REALLY wants to see Shawn Michaels, bum leg and all fight HHH for the umpteenth millionth time already.), they did use some of the fans input to determine who they like and who they're lukewarm on. Is it any coincidence that Chuck Palumbo and Rodney Mack got dropped after dismal showings in the I.C. title contendership?

I honestly don't know how well Daniel Puder is pulling in the votes, so he may or may not have been ratings gold in a legit shoot fight against Angle. Similarly, they have so few stars that have been guaranteed to put on good matches and be bankable and I don't think they'd want to put Angle in an awkward position. So, yeah, I can completely understand why the WWE wouldn't want to push a Puder vs. Angle feud right out of the box without a clear winner in this sham that is Tough Enough. Truthfully, I don't really see many likeable faces in this newest crop. I can't believe I've actually given this much thought to a Tough Enough angle. Damn, wrestling must really be sucking for it to come to this.
sentonBOMB
Frankfurter








Since: 25.11.02
From: Jersey

Since last post: 1938 days
Last activity: 639 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.42
    Originally posted by Pimpstress
    I don't know how much of a HUGE money angle a real shoot fight between Puder and Kurt Angle would be. In light of all of the talent that has been cut from the roster this past week, I doubt that the WWE would want to take a risk on making one of their most bankable and sound investments look like a blithering idiot. Let's face it, the WWE has been at a loss for ideas and between this Diva crap, the Tough Enough crap and Taboo Tuesday, this is the most subtle way that they can actually say "Hey, we have no fucking ideas left whatsoever. Here's some crap. Pick out what you like from there and we'll put it on if it we can figure out a way to make it work."

    Even though I think Taboo Tuesday was planned to a certain degree (Come on! Who REALLY wants to see Shawn Michaels, bum leg and all fight HHH for the umpteenth millionth time already.), they did use some of the fans input to determine who they like and who they're lukewarm on. Is it any coincidence that Chuck Palumbo and Rodney Mack got dropped after dismal showings in the I.C. title contendership?

    I honestly don't know how well Daniel Puder is pulling in the votes, so he may or may not have been ratings gold in a legit shoot fight against Angle. Similarly, they have so few stars that have been guaranteed to put on good matches and be bankable and I don't think they'd want to put Angle in an awkward position. So, yeah, I can completely understand why the WWE wouldn't want to push a Puder vs. Angle feud right out of the box without a clear winner in this sham that is Tough Enough. Truthfully, I don't really see many likeable faces in this newest crop. I can't believe I've actually given this much thought to a Tough Enough angle. Damn, wrestling must really be sucking for it to come to this.


In response to the "who really wants to see Michaels/HHH for the umpteen millionth time" question, apparently the answer is "whoever's been booking Raw PPVs for the last year."
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A lot of people are saying that Smackdown is lacking some star power and well I don't know if I would totally agree, but there's a simple solution to this problem other than making some trades. Do what the WWE has done successfully so much in the past.
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