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The W - Pro Wrestling - Puder defeats Angle?
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DirtyMikeSeaver
Boudin rouge








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 32 days
Last activity: 32 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.64
From wrestlingobserver.com:

--The Kurt Angle-Daniel Puder deal from last night's Smackdown is really interesting. On MMA message boards, this has turned into the biggest story in a long time, and the funny part is, many MMA board people don't get the big picture at all and hate pro wrestling. I've seen some talk on pro wrestling boards, but while I've gotten tons of phone calls about it, I've gotten almost no e-mails about it, so I don't think many fans watching saw what really happened. Just to answer a few questions on it. It was real. If you don't follow fighting, Puder had Angle locked in the Kimura, or keylock as Tazz called it, although Tazz didn't let on the move was fully executed. Not only was Angle not getting out of the move, but most MMA fighters would have tapped already. Angle couldn't tap for obvious reasons. The ref counted a three even though Puder's shoulders weren't fully down, trying to end the thing, because the reality was Angle would have been in surgery had it gone a few seconds longer or had Puder not given up the hold. My impression is, since this was a taped show, that nobody in enough power in the company actually understood what happened and let it air, and figured most would see it as a pinfall in 40 seconds. And they were 98% correct, between the commentary and the pinfall, that is how most saw it. It was only when it was all over MMA boards last night that "unknown shootfighter really beats Kurt Angle" and was the hottest topic all night, that they took the footage of it off their web site, and replaced it with copy that said, "Angle mauled Nawrocki, before taking volunteers, next pinning Daniel Puder in a slightly tougher, but still relatively easy match." This is when you know a company is doomed. When God hands them an angle that would get people talking like nothing they've been able to create on their own, given them the potential for legit water cooler talk had they played it right, and they are so blind they go in the opposite direction. Tazz called it like, "well, so much for the UFC." Yeah, and so much for The Invasion angle as well.




By the way, Storm's gimmick includes 1.) telling the audience to shut up, and 2.) occasionally making everyone stand for the Canadian national anthem. You know they don't know what to do with a wrestler when he's making fans stand for a national anthem. It's like waving a white flag and saying, "This guy has no personality -- we give up."

ESPN's Bill Simmons
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thecubsfan
Scrapple
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
So, did you have something you wanted to say about this or were you afraid people weren't going to read Dave Meltzer today of all days?

(Not that I've seen SD! yet or MMA, but I'd wager more than 2% of the people knew what actually happened, just because they've lost a lot more causal fans than MMM crossovers.)



thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
Alessandro
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Worcester MA

Since last post: 86 days
Last activity: 2 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.04
    Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver
    When God hands them an angle that would get people talking like nothing they've been able to create on their own, given them the potential for legit water cooler talk had they played it right, and they are so blind they go in the opposite direction.


Are there really enough UFC fans around to make this statement sound at all truthful?





Alessandro "Hercules" Boondy


Just take a flannel shirt and paint it red,
Then draw a chicken on it, with two poker-dice for eyes,
An' have it wavin' razors round its head ...






BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2844 days
Last activity: 2572 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.41
    Originally posted by Alessandro
      Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver
      When God hands them an angle that would get people talking like nothing they've been able to create on their own, given them the potential for legit water cooler talk had they played it right, and they are so blind they go in the opposite direction.


    Are there really enough UFC fans around to make this statement sound at all truthful?




You see, what they could have done to make MAD money off of this would be to have a headline on WWE.com saying "Rookie defeats 4 time WWE champion in less than a minute." Yeah, that'll draw a lot of money...did he actually compare this to the Invasion??
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3264 days
Last activity: 3264 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.22
In Angle's defense, he was trying to amateur wrestle them, not shoot fight them. In Puder's defense, his instincts are to grab a submission to block a takedown, not amateur wrestle.

It was just a bad idea to try and do something semi real on a wrestling show. As anyone who watches MMA knows, you can't book reality and sometimes shit happens.

I think they could have made money off of this because it ended up being a real version of the Angle/Cena angle they did when Cena debuted. The HUGE problem this time is that Puder has had like 2 weeks of wrestling training. So doing a match would be tough. Trying to promote a shoot wouldn't work well because everyone would think it was a work anyways.



"When did they pass a law that says the people who make my sandwich have to be wearing gloves? I'm not comfortable with this. I don't want glove residue all over my food; it's not sanitary. Who knows where these gloves have been?" - George Carlin
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1995 days
Last activity: 17 hours
#6 Posted on
Geez, now I feel like some emotionless robot for having no more of a reaction than 15 seconds of giggling and thinking, "Angle got schooled!" No big deal, he shot in, got caught with a lock and the ref covered for him. It's not some fodder for a possible angle down the road.

It was a fun moment. Don't make it out to be more than it is.

I have gotten more of a kick out of the fact that one of my Fraternity brothers (Go Lambda Chi Alpha!), Dan Rodimer is one of the contestants, Sweet!



Two hours later they decided to stop at a diner
Because they loved the smell of eggs and coffee
I just had to smoke a cigarette and wear a hat
By the time that they set off again, the sun was starting to set
It made the sky look red like a nuclear ray
One of them said "what do you want more than anything
in this whole wide world
Do you want money, do you want sex, or do you want all that success?"
I thought about that one myself
(Then they came upon the thing)

From, "The Church of Logic, Sin and Love" by The Men
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.02
Let me do my Dave Formalism 'cause he's definitely less than clear about his (debatable, but not as egregious as you think) point.

"Are there really enough UFC fans around to make this statement sound at all truthful?"
"did he actually compare this to the Invasion??"

Not the way you're thinking. He's not talking about an interpromotional feud; the comparison is WWE manipulating outcomes to "prove" that they are better than WCW (booking a one-sided feud) and UFC (editing this footage). And in the process, you throw out the potential of making Daniel Puder into an immediate superstar, kind of in Snitskyian fashion in that it's accidental but could work infinitely better because it's genuine.

So he's not saying that the eventual Puder vs. Angle worked match that you would build to is anywhere near the equivalent of the WCW invasion, just that it's the same idea of killing off potential stars -- and the guy who walked onto Tough Enough and surprised Kurt Angle would certainly have more going for him than any of the previous winners. And the point of the contest, in theory, is to make an actual new star (even though in practice it'll just be putting the winner on TV in a lot of awkward situations).

I hope that is a bit more logical even if you still disagree.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 5.11.04 1737)
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1432 days
Last activity: 340 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
At any rate, thank god they aren't tinkering with the winning formula of Smackdown. We can rest easy knowing that the WWE will protect its guys.



-- Asteroid Boy

Now on 411


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02, 3.12.03

"If you want me to watch the shows, buy tickets when you come to town, buy t-shirts, and pay for a PPV every three days, you bet your ass I'm going to hard to impress. And when you give me stuff that blows and then tell me I don't get a vote on sharing that opinion, I'm going to tell you to go catch an STD." - Hogan's My Dad

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 2 days
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.85
Shoulders looked down to me.



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Whitebacon
Boudin blanc








Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 70 days
Last activity: 1 day
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.04
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    Shoulders looked down to me.


[goat]They fucking super-imposed them or something.[/goat]



KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2428 days
Last activity: 1720 days
#11 Posted on
    Originally posted by Whitebacon
      Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      Shoulders looked down to me.


    [goat]They fucking super-imposed them or something.[/goat]


::spits water all over keyboard and monitor::



chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

Since last post: 2690 days
Last activity: 2689 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.82
The shoulders WERE down... but Angle was going nowhere. In fact, I don't follow UFC or MMA at all, but it was plain to my eyes once I saw Puder maneuver Angle's right arm up behind Angle's own back that Angle was in trouble. It's a good thing they ended that when they did, because it looked to me as if Angle's arm or shoulder was about to get broken.

At the end of the night, it's obvious who WWE wants us to vote for, by singling out Puder both weeks. And if it comes to hiring Puder and giving him $250,000 per year for 4 years, I'm all for it. I see a younger version of a Ken Shamrock in Puder, once they get him properly training for pro wrestling.

And yeah, I see the comparison to the Invasion angle. It's annoying that they didn't jump on what could have been a storyline... but I'm wondering if they even want to do that with a contestant. Wouldn't that sorta give a strong argument for the other contestants that Puder's being favored?

Either way: so far, so good.



Take the plunge. Step into liquid.
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BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2844 days
Last activity: 2572 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.12
JS, I think that does make the point clearer. But at the same time, to those who didn't know the fights were a shoot and assumed it was a work, how do you tell those people how significant this was? If people think it's a work, they won't buy the hype of a guy "really" beating Angle. If they would have done something like this, i just think that it would have ended up being a crappy "worked shoot".

200 posts in 3 1/2 months...way to go me!
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1995 days
Last activity: 17 hours
#14 Posted on
After seeing the varied opinions, and reviewing the segment, Angle DID look like he was about to get f*cked up with that keylock. Anyone else agree that Angle's arm looked pretty strained, almost to the breaking point.

What do you think would have been the consequences of Angle getting injured like that on national TV? Instant notoriety? Or an instant blacklist from American wrestling, with a forthcoming engraved gold invite to NJPW from Inoki?

I still don't think it was all that major an incident, though it looks like Angle gave Puder an earful for shooting on him like that.



Your fuck stock is ass-prone, nutcocker!
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 day
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.85
Well call it a draw, then. Angle pinned him, but almost got his arm broken. It's still a far cry from, Puder beat Angle.



Hot Virgins-The World's Most Steadily Shrinking Commodity
KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2428 days
Last activity: 1720 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
    Originally posted by EastCoastAvenger
    Angle DID look like he was about to get f*cked up with that keylock. Anyone else agree that Angle's arm looked pretty strained


Yes. If it was a fight, Puder would have likely won because Angle would have either tapped or had a broken arm.

Since it was supposedly a wrestling match and not a fight, I guess Angle won...I haven't looked at the footage again to see if his shoulders were really down or whatever, nor do I care that much. When Puder was "pinned" though, Angle was pretty much at his mercy.

No idea if the outcome would be the same if they went at it again, since obviously Angle would be more cautious.


    What do you think would have been the consequences of Angle getting injured like that on national TV? Instant notoriety? Or an instant blacklist from American wrestling, with a forthcoming engraved gold invite to NJPW from Inoki?


Yes to all of that except the blacklist. Even if WWE dumped him, TNA would probably love to pick him up and bring him in as the person that fucked up Kurt Angle, WWE's "most legitimate" guy.



Swatkid84
Haggis








Since: 24.2.04

Since last post: 3119 days
Last activity: 3106 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.00
"Yes to all of that except the blacklist. Even if WWE dumped him, TNA would probably love to pick him up and bring him in as the person that fucked up Kurt Angle, WWE's "most legitimate" guy."

In my opinion, I would say that Chris Benoit is WWE's most legitimate guy.
TheMASKEDComputerGeek
Chourico








Since: 7.1.02
From: Franklin, Wisconsin

Since last post: 83 days
Last activity: 3 hours
AIM:  
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
    Originally posted by Swatkid84
    "Yes to all of that except the blacklist. Even if WWE dumped him, TNA would probably love to pick him up and bring him in as the person that fucked up Kurt Angle, WWE's "most legitimate" guy."

    In my opinion, I would say that Chris Benoit is WWE's most legitimate guy.


I love Chris Benoit. Love the guy. But he is not more legitimate than a man who won a gold medal for wrestling. He just isn't.



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Jim Smith
Goetta








Since: 17.10.04
From: Bloomington, IL

Since last post: 2302 days
Last activity: 1733 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
I don't get UPN, so I've only read about this whole thing. But it seems to me that WWE's first mistake was sending these Tough Enough guys out there without making it clear to them that they're competing for a part of a rookie character in a worked sport. When you tell these guys they have to take a bodyslam from Big Show, they're thinking they have to show that they can handle the pain, not sell the move. When you tell them to wrestle Kurt Angle, they think the goal is to defeat Kurt Angle. I'm sure all these guys know wrestling is fake and all, but I have to think nobody told them "OK, show Kurt what you've got, but your job is to let him win."

The Diva Search had the same problem. Instead of making it clear to the women what was expected of them, WWE just sort of herded them into the ring with no idea what to do. So as soon as they got a live mike they just said whatever stupid things came to mind. That one show where they trashed Bischoff's office and Eric chewed them out, they didn't know they were supposed to be terrified of him and nearly made him look like an imbecile--sort of the verbal equivalent of Angle-Puder.

And none of it is the fault of the Diva Search or Tough Enough contestants--it's WWE's fault for throwing them into a carefully orchestrated worked show with no instructions but to be charismatic and spontaneous. They might as well be letting fans jump the barricade and compete for a job in the company, and just hope that random people will have the sense to maintain kayfabe.
Weevil
Polska kielbasa








Since: 19.3.02
From: Ireland

Since last post: 3217 days
Last activity: 3217 days
#20 Posted on
    Originally posted by chill
    The shoulders WERE down... but Angle was going nowhere.


Angle didn't have to go anywhere. He just had to hold the guy down for a three count, which he did.

It wasn't an MMA match. Puder tried to use a technique that would be good in UFC, but was a bad idea in a wrestling match where you have to keep your shoulders off the mat.

It doesn't matter if he could have submitted Angle a few seconds later because the match was over.

WWE even did the same finish in a match once, where Taker tapped to a triangle choke while he was pinning Angle.

In this case Angle didn't tap so he won, fair and square.



It's all wrestling. You don't understand it, you don't like it. Why should you? Wrestling is for everybody, you included, but not exclusively. It may not be your wrestling but it's wrestling to somebody somewhere.
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