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The W - Current Events & Politics - Prez Heckled By Republican During Address
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Amos Cochran
Bratwurst








Since: 28.8.09

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.18
Good speech, if a little light on details. It's about time the guy actually stepped up and took on some his idiotic critics. I can't believe Palin et al are still trying to float the "death panel" meme.

Hey, Republicans, whatever happened to "respect the office, if not the man"?
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lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.32
Stay classy, South Carolina.
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.60
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Good speech, if a little light on details. It's about time the guy actually stepped up and took on some his idiotic critics. I can't believe Palin et al are still trying to float the "death panel" meme.

    Hey, Republicans, whatever happened to "respect the office, if not the man"?


You should talk. I could only wish that our congress operates like your House of commons where the Prime Minister has to answer questions. The President has refused to meet with Republicans including Representative Wilson regarding alternative plans. But I agree, he shouldn't have spoke up then. We aren't a bunch of crazies like the british house.

Death Panels, huh?

HR3200 - this is a quote:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

    Originally posted by The Congress of the United States of America
    SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.
    Advance Care Planning Consultation
    the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning (a "practitioner" is a Doctor, Nurse, or "other official")

    An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.

    A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.



ah, there's so much more. Other than the fact that I don't want 50 new bureaucracies, I also don't want anyone advising old folks on end of life scenarios, especially not someone defined by the state as an official.

"gramps, you have Cancer, buddy. and you're 85 - you really want to go through all that? We'll make you comfortable if you decide to not do it" Of course, Gramps can't hear all that well anymore, so he misses half of what's said. Pretty soon, he's signing papers.





We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

Amos Cochran
Bratwurst








Since: 28.8.09

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
Oho, so you're one of those who subscribe to the theory that we over here regularly put old people down. Do you also believe that nutso "Stephen Hawking would have been earmarked for death" quote that the Right have been bandying about?

""gramps, you have Cancer, buddy. and you're 85 - you really want to go through all that? We'll make you comfortable if you decide to not do it" Of course, Gramps can't hear all that well anymore, so he misses half of what's said. Pretty soon, he's signing papers."

Here's an alternative quote for you, courtesy a family emergency of ours several years back:

"Gramps, you've just had a heart attack at 76 years of age. But don't worry, because the ambulance has got here within fifteen minutes, and they have all the drugs you need to keep your heart beating. Then once they've administered that and ensured your health for the journey, you'll be taken to hospital where you can stay, for free and with round-the-clock care, until you're fit enough to go home. Total cost? Nada.".

Or how about this one:

"Hey sis, I know you're eight months pregnant and worried about that bleeding down there, so we've got an ambulance to take you in right this second. They''ll examine you, put you on a ward with twenty-four-hour midwife staff, and just like gramps, they'll feed and care for you until you're ready to go home. The bill? Once again, zero!"

But hey, continue to lie and distort and misrespresent (I can't see anything even remotely deserving of the alarmist term "death panels" being described in that excerpt). I'll just sit here with a healthcare system that ensures total medical coverage whenever you may need it, regardless of class, colour or political affiliation.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by Amos Cochran
      Good speech, if a little light on details. It's about time the guy actually stepped up and took on some his idiotic critics. I can't believe Palin et al are still trying to float the "death panel" meme.

      Hey, Republicans, whatever happened to "respect the office, if not the man"?


    You should talk. I could only wish that our congress operates like your House of commons where the Prime Minister has to answer questions. The President has refused to meet with Republicans including Representative Wilson regarding alternative plans. But I agree, he shouldn't have spoke up then. We aren't a bunch of crazies like the british house.

    Death Panels, huh?

    HR3200 - this is a quote:
    http://www.opencongress.org/​​bill/​​111-​​h3200/​​text

      Originally posted by The Congress of the United States of America
      SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.
      Advance Care Planning Consultation
      the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning (a "practitioner" is a Doctor, Nurse, or "other official")

      An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.

      A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.



    ah, there's so much more. Other than the fact that I don't want 50 new bureaucracies, I also don't want anyone advising old folks on end of life scenarios, especially not someone defined by the state as an official.

    "gramps, you have Cancer, buddy. and you're 85 - you really want to go through all that? We'll make you comfortable if you decide to not do it" Of course, Gramps can't hear all that well anymore, so he misses half of what's said. Pretty soon, he's signing papers.




So the fact that they'll cover end of life counseling that is in no way mandatory, once every five years, is to you a bad thing? Would you rather it not be covered?

This is getting ridiculous.

But more importantly, do you even care that Wilson was the one lying there?

(edited by wmatistic on 10.9.09 0652)
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.32
The House of Commons is like ECW, its fun to look at first, then you realize there is very little work rate and most of the good stuff is done in the promo area ie backstage. It is amazing how someone wants to take the craziness of British craziness into America, but their Health Care system which even their critics agrees its better then what we have, you don't want. I am sure someone will come in to defend AWA, but do really want to defend someone who just said it was ok to act like a two year old in a room known to be close to a church we have in politics. If this happened to a GOP member, Fox news would call him a terrorist and unAmerican, but today, he is a freedom fighter. Bullshit.


P.S. The real death panels are the insurance agencies cutting coverage to save money. Of course, you are too busy to concern yourself with it for a 85 year old who has cancer that probably wouldn't survive chemo.

(edited by lotjx on 10.9.09 0900)
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.60
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    But more importantly, do you even care that Wilson was the one lying there?


What, that Illegals will have free health care? They have it now. Anyone can go to any emergency room unless it is a private hospital and get treated. Treatment first, payment later. That's really as it should be.

But an illegal can get the same as me. He doesn't have to show a green card any more than I do. But if I am indigent, I don't have to pay. Neither does he or she. My wife says about 11% of their stuff is write off at her place.

Oh, and Amos, I wasn't concerned about your "free" health care. I was more happy for your way of doing questions with the government.

and "free" health care in England:

20-40% Income tax - Hey not so bad, united states income tax ranges from 10-35. Theirs is lower

But 17% Sales tax

Free



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

Amos Cochran
Bratwurst








Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 1 hour
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
Funny, I seem to be able to survive quite well without the £50 a month or so that's collected from my paycheck as an NI contribution. Certainly better than I would given the insurance rates in Aerica. But please, continue to dodge anything resembling actual discussion. I've got to go see my assigned Death Panel High Inquisitor later - or as we call them over here, "general practitioner".

(edited by Amos Cochran on 10.9.09 0919)
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by wmatistic
      But more importantly, do you even care that Wilson was the one lying there?


    What, that Illegals will have free health care? They have it now. Anyone can go to any emergency room unless it is a private hospital and get treated. Treatment first, payment later. That's really as it should be.



The President was talking about being covered, meaning insurance. Joe Wilson was the one lying.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Good speech, if a little light on details.

then how is it a "good" speech? I seriously doubt there is a single person in government who has read the entire flipping bill. No details means he's not saying SOMETHING that needs to be said, either PRO or CON.


    It's about time the guy actually stepped up and took on some his idiotic critics. I can't believe Palin et al are still trying to float the "death panel" meme.

Yes, Palin is an idiot. And that's why the death panel meme has basically derailed the entire operation. Funny how somebody who's 'idiotic' can do that.


    Hey, Republicans, whatever happened to "respect the office, if not the man"?

Not sure if you're aware, being British and all, but the president is EQUAL to the House and Senate. Yet he doesn't see it this way. Refusing to talk to Republicans who oppose him, yet visiting the heads of Insurance and Pharmacy companies seems to show where his heart is.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 38 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Originally posted by Amos Cochran
      Good speech, if a little light on details.

    then how is it a "good" speech? I seriously doubt there is a single person in government who has read the entire flipping bill. No details means he's not saying SOMETHING that needs to be said, either PRO or CON.


      It's about time the guy actually stepped up and took on some his idiotic critics. I can't believe Palin et al are still trying to float the "death panel" meme.

    Yes, Palin is an idiot. And that's why the death panel meme has basically derailed the entire operation. Funny how somebody who's 'idiotic' can do that.


      Hey, Republicans, whatever happened to "respect the office, if not the man"?

    Not sure if you're aware, being British and all, but the president is EQUAL to the House and Senate. Yet he doesn't see it this way. Refusing to talk to Republicans who oppose him, yet visiting the heads of Insurance and Pharmacy companies seems to show where his heart is.


How is he refusing to talk to Republicans again? You and someone else have stated this, but I could swear I heard Snowe saying she and the President have been in talks.

(and yes Palin is an idiot. Just because other idiots buy her crap doesn't make it intelligent)

(edited by wmatistic on 10.9.09 0720)
bradbice
Chorizo








Since: 2.1.02
From: MI

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.00
Yeah there's a lot of hearsay going on here, I'm afraid. How about quoting some sources if you're going to make statements like "Refusing to talk to Republicans who oppose him, yet visiting the heads of Insurance and Pharmacy companies".

It seems a lot of people are more bent on killing any Obama-sponsored plan than improving it, which is sad.



2009 NBA Playoffs bracket
Von Maestro
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.1.04
From: New York

Since last post: 34 days
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.85
    Originally posted by wmtastic
    How is he refusing to talk to Republicans again? You and someone else have stated this, but I could swear I heard Snowe saying she and the President have been in talks.


    Originally posted by bradbice
    Yeah there's a lot of hearsay going on here, I'm afraid. How about quoting some sources if you're going to make statements like "Refusing to talk to Republicans who oppose him, yet visiting the heads of Insurance and Pharmacy companies".

    It seems a lot of people are more bent on killing any Obama-sponsored plan than improving it, which is sad.


I believe people were referring to this story (thehill.com) that went around yesterday, and I imagine the letter that Republicans seem to be holding up whenever Obama said he wanted to work with Republicans.

As far as the heckle, Wilson was out of line (regardless of whether you think he was factually correct or not), just as it was wrong when Harry Reid called George W. Bush a loser & a liar, and when Bush was booed by Democrats during his State of the Union. Behavior like this is expected in banana republics & shouldn't be going on in the US Government.

Along the line of ridiculous behavior, this clapping business has to stop. It was annoying when Clinton did it. It got more annoying when Bush did it. Now it's just simply laughable and makes the entire leadership look like a bunch of petty idiots. Republicans and Democrats, just sit there, listen to the President and applaud politely after the speech. These applause and standing ovation breaks make a mockery of the serious business of governing a country. Please stop and act like leaders for a change!
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.49
I'm delighted that Wilson's expected opponent allegedly garnered thousands of dollars in online pledges last night.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.47
Von Maestro, couldn't agree more. The clapping everytime the Prez clears his throat is beyond annoying. Not to mention the "spontaneous" standing ovations. If I were speaking this would annoy me no end. It destroys the flow of what you are saying. Maybe we should go back to the old days when the State of the Union Address was just delivered to Congress.


AWA, I have read what you included several times and I can't make the reach to death panels. And I believe the minority party now proposed about the same thing when they were in power.

(edited by DrDirt on 10.9.09 1042)


Perception is reality
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    I'm delighted that Wilson's expected opponent allegedly garnered thousands of dollars in online pledges last night.


http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079

He was just under $100K when I got to work this morning. He's close to $200K now. Granted I think it's kinda dumb for people to throw money at a guy they probably know zero about. But Wilson sure screwed up, that's for sure.

And I can agree, the clapping, the booing, the shouting, it's all really pathetic.

spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    ah, there's so much more. Other than the fact that I don't want 50 new bureaucracies, I also don't want anyone advising old folks on end of life scenarios, especially not someone defined by the state as an official.

    "gramps, you have Cancer, buddy. and you're 85 - you really want to go through all that? We'll make you comfortable if you decide to not do it" Of course, Gramps can't hear all that well anymore, so he misses half of what's said. Pretty soon, he's signing papers.



Do you have a living will? Do you have any sort of DNR restrictions? If something happens to you does your family know what sort of life-sustaining options you want or don't want?

I know personally I don't want to be kept alive by machines for years as a brain-dead vegetable. And I don't think letting a doctor sit down with someone and asking them what they wish for, and spelling out the different scenarios for what sort of situations are common among seniors is some sort of secret plan to kill grandma. The argument about whether there should be national health care is one thing, but the idea that seniors shouldn't be apprised of what their options are and given the tools needed to decide in what manner and how aggressively they wish to be treated in EOL scenarios strikes me as irresponsible and somewhat callous.



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
CRZ
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.85
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Good speech, if a little light on details. It's about time the guy actually stepped up and took on some his idiotic critics. I can't believe Palin et al are still trying to float the "death panel" meme.

    Hey, Republicans, whatever happened to "respect the office, if not the man"?
Why did this thread even get started? Wilson was decried, presumably taken to the woodshed behind the scenes because he very quickly and profusely apologised, all of this HOURS before you posted, yet THIS is what you choose to title the thread with? THIS is what you chose to take from of Obama's speech - which is to say, nothing? Hoo-whee.

And AWArulz, if you hadn't taken the bait this whole thing would have been a lot shorter. You know better.

Please feel free to keep talking about the REAL issue, but perpetuating this right vs. left bullshit is really, REALLY something I don't want to see on here. I believe I have said this before.






AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.60
I'll make a last couple statements and get out:

Sure, I have a will and have a durable power of attorney for my wife and then for my kids and they know my wishes. No government official was involved in my decision. No attorney was either (cheap plug for Legal Zoom dot com)

I wouldn't refer to what HR3200 says exactly as death panels, but it does appear that there will be mandatory "advanced planning" counseling by someone, who _may_ be your doctor or _may_ be someone appointed by the government to act. That is the part that concerns me there.

My main concern is cost. Our taxes are about 28% of gdp while countries like the UK (39%), Canada (33%), Sweden (48%) that have government health care are taxed at a much higher rate. Amos said he didn't miss the 80 or so a month he pays for Health insurance. I wouldn't either. I pay much more. But The UK also has a 17% sales tax in addition to a large income tax. I am willing to have a sales tax that high if we do not have income tax. One or the other.

and lastly, my intended MAIN point was that we had a limey commenting on our process. Their process is quite confrontative and, while I don't condone wilson's outburst, I understand it. I sort of wish we have a version of the Prime minister's questions here. The writers of H.R. 3400

http://rsc.tomprice.house.gov/Solutions/EmpoweringPatientsFirstAct.htm

Of which Wilson is a co-sponsor, have not been allowed to meet with the president and explain their plan, which costs about 800 billion less.

ok, I am out. Sorry, Chris. This one is important to me.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.

That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift

wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by AWArulz

    I wouldn't refer to what HR3200 says exactly as death panels, but it does appear that there will be mandatory "advanced planning" counseling by someone, who _may_ be your doctor or _may_ be someone appointed by the government to act. That is the part that concerns me there.




My only problem here is that in no way does it make it "mandatory", so I wish people would stop saying that. All it does is say the insurance would cover the cost if you decide to get counseling on your own.



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