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The W - Current Events & Politics - Presidential Town Hall Debate thread anyone? (Page 2)
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CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.86
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
      Originally posted by CRZ
      Saying stuff like "backwater moron" will tend to get labels slapped on YOU, but we shouldn't have to go there in EITHER direction.

    For the LAST time, I was NOT referring to MCCAIN with that remark (I can type in caps for extra enunciation too!).
I knew who you were referring to. Not that it matters; you shouldn't have to make those characterizations about anybody - at least, if you want your argument to be taken seriously.


      Sure, let's see your laundry list. Can you post it without resorting to pejoratives?

    Let's see what I can come up with off the top of my head:

    1) Her belief that homosexuality is a choice.
    2) Her unwillingness to expand her knowledge on world politics.
    3) Her unprofessionalism with the media.
    4) Couldn't name one news publication she reads on a regular basis.
    5) Couldn't name any other US Supreme Court case outside of Roe v Wade.
    6) Her stubborn stance on abortion, up to the point where her teenaged daughter is forced to go through with her pregnancy and shotgun wedding, only to save face for the McCain-Palin ticket.
    7) Her seeming dislike for those who are highly-educated (many of whom she would have to deal with on daily basis should McCain take office).

    I can go on and on, but if you really want to know what's wrong with her just look her up on Google.
Rather than bring up what I believe to be questionability (at best) of some of those points, take issue with your assumptions, or accuse you of outright mischaracterization (at worst) I will summarize my "rebuttal" with the fact that none of your points really resonate with me and I'll stand by my previous statement.

If I were to Google her, I would be just as likely to find out she had an approval rating as high as 80-something as Alaska's governor, so I'm not sure how useful that would be overall for the purposes of THIS discussion. Besides, I'm not out to find out "what's wrong with her" as I was more interested in finding out what YOU thought was wrong with her. (And thanks for answering!)



      Also, if we're talking lists and you don't mind me asking, where on your list of issues is "choice of vice president" when it comes to choosing to cast your vote for president?


    How about the fact that the man she is running with is dangerously close to passing away (as pointed out by Mr. Boffo), and until it's proven otherwise, the fact that she seems too incompetent to usurp his duties as President should he be elected.
Well, there's that word "seems" again, but that's a moot point. You didn't really answer my questions. Where is "choice of vice president" in your decision making process for your presidential vote? First and primary? Up near the top? Somewhere in the middle? Not at all? (Obviously not "Not at all," I am betting ;-) )

EDIT:
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    Rumor is that McCain really wanted Lieberman but someone else on the campaign opted for Palin.
"There you go again." FACTS, 'lanche, give me some FACTS. ;-)

(edited by CRZ on 8.10.08 1414)


StaggerLee
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.62
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
      Originally posted by CRZ
      Saying stuff like "backwater moron" will tend to get labels slapped on YOU, but we shouldn't have to go there in EITHER direction.

    For the LAST time, I was NOT referring to MCCAIN with that remark (I can type in caps for extra enunciation too!).


      Sure, let's see your laundry list. Can you post it without resorting to pejoratives?

    Let's see what I can come up with off the top of my head:

    1) Her belief that homosexuality is a choice.
    2) Her unwillingness to expand her knowledge on world politics.
    3) Her unprofessionalism with the media.
    4) Couldn't name one news publication she reads on a regular basis.
    5) Couldn't name any other US Supreme Court case outside of Roe v Wade.
    6) Her stubborn stance on abortion, up to the point where her teenaged daughter is forced to go through with her pregnancy and shotgun wedding, only to save face for the McCain-Palin ticket.
    7) Her seeming dislike for those who are highly-educated (many of whom she would have to deal with on daily basis should McCain take office).



    How about the fact that the man she is running with is dangerously close to passing away (as pointed out by Mr. Boffo), and until it's proven otherwise, the fact that she seems too incompetent to usurp his duties as President should he be elected.

    (edited by Broncolanche on 8.10.08 1240)


Well, point by point.

1. Homosexuality is a choice.... what did Obama or Biden say about it? Or were they ever asked? So, you don't like her personal moral standards about homosexuals, so that somehow makes her unfit to be VP?
2. UNWILLINGNESS to learn about world politics? Did I miss a press conference where she said she was unwilling to learn? Or is a 6 week learning curve plenty of time in your eyes to be on top of everything?
3. I would say, what about the media's unprofessionalism with her? Really, have Joe Biden or Barrack Obama been asked any similar questions to the crap she's had slung at her?
4. Well, that must mean she can't read, right?
5. 99% of American's can't name a decision either.
6. I am happy that you know the interpersonal relationships going on in the Palin family, that you can give expert analysis on the relationship status of a teenage girl.
btw, can you guess who said "Im prepared as a matter of faith to accept that life begins at the moment of conception. (hint, it wasn't McCain's VP pick)
7. How do you figure she dislikes highly educated people? She has a degree. Her husband has a degree.....
Does she dislike highly educated people more than Obama dislikes CEOs who make lots of money?

And, why is McCain "dangerously close" to dying? Because he's old? If his health hasn't failed him up to this point, what makes you think he's DANGEROUSLY CLOSE! to death?


Oh, and Zeruel, I was educated at DOD schools for 75% of my education. And, to say it was lacking would be generous.

And, I've said it before, if you really want to see how the government would run health care, take a trip to your local VA hospital and see if that's where YOU'D like to get care. I qualify for free health care through them, and I choose to pay for private insurance.

(edited by StaggerLee on 8.10.08 1417)
Lexus
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Since: 2.1.02
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.04
Dan Quayle was twice as 'unenlightened' (to put it as nicely as I can) as Sarah Palin, but he didn't wind up blowing up everything and causing all the little penguins to go extinct.

Al Gore was/is 1.5 times as 'unenlightened'. The Arctic ice caps are shrinking, he tells us 'an inconvenient truth', meanwhile the Antarctic ice caps are growing, which shows global warming happens naturally and by hemisphere. Go green, save a few dollars, great. Find alternate feul sources, awesome. Take credit for the entire notion? Bah.

Dick Cheney is so smart he's the next Bond villain. He's cunning, ruthless, and diametrically opposite to everybody's portrayal of Palin.

Having some weirdo in the veep spot is NOT a new thing in America.

    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    Her stubborn stance on abortion, up to the point where her teenaged daughter is forced to go through with her pregnancy and shotgun wedding, only to save face for the McCain-Palin ticket.


I do say I don't like the shotgun wedding notion, but how do any of us know that the girl doesn't want to keep the baby? Granted, no matter what the scenario the girl will probably go through a massive amount of psychological damage; bearing a child and abortion both are notions that the underdeveloped teenaged mind probably should not handle (Juno was fictional). Morality aside, either way that girl's bound and on public display; at least she won't have to deal with a lobotomy like the Kennedy girl. I do feel for Levi, the father-to-be, getting roped in with the whole fiasco rather than having the opportunity to pay child support or flee to Canada. Also, it'd be a far darker and more twisted notion that Palin would force her daughter into an abortion. However, the fact that Sarah Palin was such an irresponsible parent to not teach her daughter to know any better than to get knocked up in the first place is very condemning. However, as stated earlier, while they may be running on a ticket together, everybody in the country is going to the polls for McCain or Obama (Or Barr, but only if you thought going to the batting cage was too little a waste of time on the day, sorry CRZ).



"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Frown and the world laughs at you."
-Me.
PeterStork
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Since: 25.1.02
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Well, point by point.

    1. Homosexuality is a choice.... what did Obama or Biden say about it? Or were they ever asked? So, you don't like her personal moral standards about homosexuals, so that somehow makes her unfit to be VP?
    2. UNWILLINGNESS to learn about world politics? Did I miss a press conference where she said she was unwilling to learn? Or is a 6 week learning curve plenty of time in your eyes to be on top of everything?
    3. I would say, what about the media's unprofessionalism with her? Really, have Joe Biden or Barrack Obama been asked any similar questions to the crap she's had slung at her?
    4. Well, that must mean she can't read, right?
    5. 99% of American's can't name a decision either.
    6. I am happy that you know the interpersonal relationships going on in the Palin family, that you can give expert analysis on the relationship status of a teenage girl.
    btw, can you guess who said "Im prepared as a matter of faith to accept that life begins at the moment of conception. (hint, it wasn't McCain's VP pick)
    7. How do you figure she dislikes highly educated people? She has a degree. Her husband has a degree.....
    Does she dislike highly educated people more than Obama dislikes CEOs who make lots of money?


1. I think if you ask most homosexuals, they'd tell you that at no point did they decide, "Hmm, I'd rather desire dongs from now on." It's not a choice any more than who a heterosexual falls in love with. Whether you agree or disagree with the practice, holding such an opinion on it being a choice is way behind the time.

2. Unwillingness when unnecessary. Some people have a natural interest in the world around them, and that logically makes them more fit for the job she's applied for. She, historically, doesn't seem to have cared. Should we believe she can start now? It's a leap of faith one doesn't have to take with the top of the GOP ticket.

3. Questions like "What newspapers do you read?" and "You say John McCain has sided with less regulation. Can you give us just one concrete example?" are unprofessional? Really?

4. Seriously, she could have just said "Time", "Newsweek", "The New York Times", "The Wall Street Journal" or anything of the ilk. Why didn't she? Because she didn't want to be somehow caught in a lie later, or because she doesn't read any such publications? And, seriously, "all of them?" C'mon.

5. Then 99% of Americans shouldn't be running for Veep either. Even if you look at the actual question - a decision she disagrees with - she still should have been able to answer, especially since she cited a case earlier in the interview.



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KJames199
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Since: 10.12.01
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.31
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Homosexuality is a choice...
No it's not. At what point in your life did you sit down and decide to be straight? You can choose to have sex with someone (or not), to date someone (or not), to marry someone (or not), to hide your orientation (or not)... but you don't get to pick who you're attracted to.

To use a less controversial example, I prefer brunettes to blondes. This was not a conscious decision on my part; it's just the way it is.
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So, you don't like her personal moral standards about homosexuals, so that somehow makes her unfit to be VP?
If I don't think someone has morals (or if I think they rush to judgment without giving fair thought to possibly uncomfortable matters), I wouldn't vote for them.
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Or is a 6 week learning curve plenty of time in your eyes to be on top of everything?
It would take me way more than six weeks to "be on top of everything." I'm also not fit to be Vice President.
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I am happy that you know the interpersonal relationships going on in the Palin family, that you can give expert analysis on the relationship status of a teenage girl.
I know nothing about the relationships there. But since we're (kind of) on the subject, if my unmarried seventeen-year-old daughter was pregnant, it might make me think "hey, that abstinence-only sex education I've been championing might have some flaws." There's nothing wrong with changing your mind in the face of new evidence. Not that "people will have sex even if you don't want them to" is a new phenomenon, but I don't know how they do things in Alaska.
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    And, why is McCain "dangerously close" to dying? Because he's old? If his health hasn't failed him up to this point, what makes you think he's DANGEROUSLY CLOSE! to death?
I know! These dickweeds haven't ONCE stopped to consider that he might be immortal.

As long as he's alive, YOU prove otherwise.



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StaggerLee
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.58
Sorry to make is seem like I PERSONALLY believe that Homosexuality is a choice. I do not. HOWEVER, what does somebody's views on homosexuality have to do with their ability to carry out their responsibilities?

Mike Zeidler
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Since: 27.6.02
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.04
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Anything that was said that impressed you, or made you do a facepalm?

    While watching, I got the sense that I'd like McCain to win (since I pretty much am terrified of Obama's socialist leanings) and have Obama named Sect of State.

    Anyhow, thoughts, opinions?


Here's something I don't get about the push against universal health care. When it was originally floated, the bailout ("rescue") plan for Wall St. was purported to cost upwards of a trillion dollars. This was broken down into a figure of $3,033/person to pay for it. I pay more than this for health insurance through my employer, and working in TV, I actually pay more for employer subsidised health insurance than I pay in taxes (and 2/3 of my taxes are refunded anyway, thanks to my tax bracket [Go fightin' 10%!]). I would be willing to turn around and pay the $3600/year I'm currently paying for health insurance as a tax increase for universal coverage. Hell, that'd be an almost 400% increase in that amount I pay in taxes, but it'd be a 100% decrease in what I pay for insurance.

I know some people who, thanks to pre-existing conditions, pay almost $3,000/month for insurance (they're self-employed, also) I'm sure they'd be happy to pony up $6000 in additional taxes to save $30,000 and not have to worry about things not being covered when they go to the doctor for whatever reason.

Communism doesn't work, but Socialism does.



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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.46
I'm not sure I would feel comfortable having Palin work as an assistant manager at my job, let alone Vice President. I'm having a hard time deciding whether people are really okay with the idea of her running the country, or that it's been so long since we needed a VP to step in that they just aren't worried about it. I just get the feeling that she never has any idea what she is talking about.

I'll admit I'm not a McCain fan and was never going to vote for him, but now I am horrified of the possibility of him winning the election because of this lady.

As for the debate, nothing was ground breaking. McCain sounded grumpy and a little out of breath at times which for some reason surprised me ... should it of have? I'm not a fan of his soft talk and how he says 'friends' all the time now, but I'm guessing he is getting that from Lieberman.

Obama was Obama. He never wowed me, I'm not sure there have been many times that he has. I did laugh when he said that the Straight Talk Express just lost a wheel.

Paul
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41
    Originally posted by JimBob Skeeter
    I'd be more comfortable with with that than President Obama. No, I don't care to elaborate. That's just how I feel.


Thanks for this useful interjection into a debate discussion!

I don't know, I thought both sides got their points across reasonably well. McCain was trying to attack more than Obama, but Obama got his points across very calmly and clearly. Trouble is, McCain needs a killing in a debate in order to make it up; Obama just needs to show up and not yell KILL WHITEY.



Paul
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Zeruel
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Since: 2.1.02
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by Zundian

    I know some people who, thanks to pre-existing conditions, pay almost $3,000/month for insurance (they're self-employed, also)


My type II diabetes disqualifies me for health insurance. Count me in as those who can not afford health insurance because the providers do not want to cover me.

And Stagger, I call your VA hospitals (my dad worked at one, I know how they are) and I raise you Federal employee health coverage. McCain and Obama freely admit that they receive very generous socialized health care from the government.

VA hospitals suck because the government doesn't care about the troops stationed there. My dad was in WWII and had to be "cared" for in one and thought a trip in hell would have been a better vacation, and worked at the DC one as a biochemist. He made me promise, before he died, that I would never admit him to one. He'd rather be dead than be admitted to one.



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Oliver
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.42
I could never fathom having no health insurance, let alone being disqualified for coverage simply because of diabetes. That's terrible.

I'm SO glad to be Canadian sometimes.

Socialism can work. I mean, its around us, but not necessarily classified as such. Public schools, postal service, municipal transit...all socialized.




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Since: 2.1.02
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
Couple of quick things:

    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    5) Couldn't name any other US Supreme Court case outside of Roe v Wade.
Anyone should be able to name another one -- Brown vs. Board of Education, say, or hey -- Bush vs. Gore. However, she was asked to name a SC decision that she disagreed with, which shifts the question into an opinion piece rather than just name-a-fact, so it's a harder question to answer on a couple of levels.

    Originally posted by CRZ
    I would be just as likely to find out she had an approval rating as high as 80-something as Alaska's governor
Had being the operative word here, of course. She peaked there and dropped down to 68% (editorandpublisher.com) (and keep in mind that that's in a solidly red state). I'm not sure if you meant this tidbit as a random factoid or a "see, she must be awesome" suggestion, but of course Bush hit over 90% once, so I'm not sure how much should be read into it anyway.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    HOWEVER, what does somebody's views on homosexuality have to do with their ability to carry out their responsibilities?
Nothing, I guess, on their ability to carry them out, but a lot on how they carry them out. If they're breakin' ties in the Senate or having whatever influence on policy VPs get to have, or if they somehow wind up as president and -- perhaps most importantly -- appointing Supreme Court justices -- they wield a considerable amount of power over the human rights of gay people, so yeah, their views in this area are a concern.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So, you don't like her personal moral standards about homosexuals, so that somehow makes her unfit to be VP?
So, yeah. But I want to be clear on what you're asking here: are no "personal moral views" relevant, or just re: homosexuals? And should judging fitness based on moral views be different for the presidential candidate as compared to the VP candidate?

--K



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lotjx
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.91
I am not really comfortable about McCain or Palin near the button at all. Both some to have a knee jerk reaction to everything from Russia invading Georgia to the bail out. McCain on a number of levels shot himself in the foot with Palin as his pick. Sure, it was to get women out there and rally the base, but if you have no base to rally and when most women found out what she stood for she became a negative. I also think her interviews did her no help even before Katie Couric and having so much baggage from the daughter being with child and no married to the Troopergate debacle, she has become more of a distraction then anything else. The SNL weekly slam on Palin has probably been the stake in the heart.

I caught the highlights of the debate and it did seem more of the same. I did think McCain forgetting the questioner's name after he said right the first time was a huge mistake. It also didn't help that McCain seemed like Jack Lemmon from Glenn Gery Glenn Ross when kept saying using the word, friends before every sentence and did a lot erratic hand motions. I have expected him to turn to Obama and asks about stealing leads for the sales company.

(edited by lotjx on 8.10.08 1806)
Lise
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.38
    Originally posted by lotjx
    I caught the highlights of the debate and it did seem more of the same. I did think McCain forgetting the questioner's name after he said right the first time was a huge mistake. It also didn't help that McCain seemed like Jack Lemmon from Glenn Gery Glenn Ross when kept saying using the word, friends before every sentence and did a lot erratic hand motions. I have expected him to turn to Obama and asks about stealing leads for the sales company.

    (edited by lotjx on 8.10.08 1806)


I did think the "My friends," thing was kinda creepy. Maybe other people find it folksy?
DJ FrostyFreeze
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.27
Read it and weep, fella


    Originally posted by Lise
    I did think the "My friends," thing was kinda creepy. Maybe other people find it folksy?
I found it old people-y.



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Lexus
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Since: 2.1.02
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.04
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
      Originally posted by Lise
      I did think the "My friends," thing was kinda creepy. Maybe other people find it folksy?
    I found it old people-y.


I found it forced on with a nail gun at the end of sentences it didn't belong.



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Since: 2.1.02

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.46
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
      Originally posted by Lise
      I did think the "My friends," thing was kinda creepy. Maybe other people find it folksy?
    I found it old people-y.


I'm telling you, it's Lieberman-y.
JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.40
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Also, if we're talking lists and you don't mind me asking, where on your list of issues is "choice of vice president" when it comes to choosing to cast your vote for president?


Personally, I put it in the category of "not a reason I would vote FOR a candidate, but possibly one I would choose to vote AGAINST one". I think Sarah Palin is precisely the same candidate as George Bush was eight years ago - albeit in the VP spot instead of the presidential nominee. And I'll be honest, when I look at John McCain I can't work up a lot of confidence that he'll be around in four years time. Am I possibly judging McCain unfairly simply because his opponent is much younger? No doubt - but I'd be lying to dismiss that reality as swaying my vote.

Also, I don't think McCain WANTS me to, but I see a man very similar to our sitting president when I see John McCain. I don't HATE George W. Bush, but I think I've seen enough of that for a while.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by CRZ
      Also, if we're talking lists and you don't mind me asking, where on your list of issues is "choice of vice president" when it comes to choosing to cast your vote for president?


    Personally, I put it in the category of "not a reason I would vote FOR a candidate, but possibly one I would choose to vote AGAINST one". I think Sarah Palin is precisely the same candidate as George Bush was eight years ago - albeit in the VP spot instead of the presidential nominee. And I'll be honest, when I look at John McCain I can't work up a lot of confidence that he'll be around in four years time. Am I possibly judging McCain unfairly simply because his opponent is much younger? No doubt - but I'd be lying to dismiss that reality as swaying my vote.

    Also, I don't think McCain WANTS me to, but I see a man very similar to our sitting president when I see John McCain. I don't HATE George W. Bush, but I think I've seen enough of that for a while.


I'm similar in that VP won't make me vote for someone, but can go the other way. I'm right in the middle when it comes to issues and when it started as McCain vs Obama I was like I'll be fine with either of them though I was leaning Obama. Then came the Palin pick and there's no way in hell I would put her in as VP. McCain lost any shot at swaying me with that selection.
Downtown Bookie
Morcilla








Since: 7.4.02
From: The Inner City, Now Living In The Country

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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.46
    Originally posted by Lise
    I did think the "My friends," thing was kinda creepy.
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    I found it old people-y.
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    I'm telling you, it's Lieberman-y.
Speaking as someone who tries to see all sides of a discussion, it should be pointed out that none of these descriptions are mutually exclusive; I'm sure that there are many who believe that it was all of the above.



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"Share your food with the hungry, and give shelter to the homeless. Give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from relatives who need your help." - Isaiah 58:7 (New Living Translation)
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