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The W - Current Events & Politics - Presidential Town Hall Debate thread anyone?
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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.64
Anything that was said that impressed you, or made you do a facepalm?

While watching, I got the sense that I'd like McCain to win (since I pretty much am terrified of Obama's socialist leanings) and have Obama named Sect of State.

Anyhow, thoughts, opinions?
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Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by StaggerLee


    While watching, I got the sense that I'd like McCain to win (since I pretty much am terrified of Obama's socialist leanings) and have Obama named Sect of State.

    Anyhow, thoughts, opinions?


Socialism isn't a dirty word. I presume you were enrolled in your local public school system (socialized), and have sent mail with the United States Postal System (socialized). What's wrong with having a near British, Canadian, or French socialized health care system.

Despite what the republicans say about them and how they don't work, MILLIONS of Brits, Canadians, and French are living very healthy, and happy, lives and not dropping like flys. Imagine, a health care system that isn't a for-profit corporation and actually WANTS you to be healthy and get better. Crazy, I know. Despite it's flaws, Michael Moore's "Sicko" is a nice glimpse into what it would be like if health care providers cared about our health and not how many millions their CEO's will make in a year by not approving procedures.

I wish we'd move away from this deregulated capitalist system and move towards a more regulated socialist system ( that is not Iceland's system. Boy, are they in deep shit). We've seen how well this deregulation has worked SO well for us lately...



-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

"Who would want to rent a chicken?" -- The Bowler
Lise
Mrs. Guru








Since: 11.12.01

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.38
I thought Tom Brokaw was being uber adoribubble last night. I just wanted to pinch his cheeks and give him Wurther's Originals to keep in his pockets.

Other than that, a lot of the same old with both of them smirking a lot. So much smirking. There was also one guy in the audience that kept disturbing me with his inappropriately wide stance. It was like he was daring the candidates and the country to look at his crotch.

Honestly I didn't really hear anything that seemed like it was going to change anyone's mind towards either side.

(We already live in a representative democracy with federal socialized programs {Social Security for example} terrified seems a little strong. Concerned I can see, terrified... that smells like troll bait.)

/edit kant spel

(edited by Lise on 8.10.08 0957)
Broncolanche
Sujuk








Since: 2.6.03
From: Littleton, CO

Since last post: 1171 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.41
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Anything that was said that impressed you, or made you do a facepalm?

    While watching, I got the sense that I'd like McCain to win (since I pretty much am terrified of Obama's socialist leanings) and have Obama named Sect of State.

    Anyhow, thoughts, opinions?
If you are comfortable with a backwater moron being literally a heartbeat away from becoming a future president within the next 4-8 years, then more power to you. :)
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 8 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.36
    Originally posted by Lise
    Concerned I can see, terrified... that smells like troll bait.


    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    If you are comfortable with a backwater moron being literally a heartbeat away from becoming a future president within the next 4-8 years, then more power to you. :)


Now THAT'S troll bait.

As for socialism, I just don't understand how the insurance industry as a whole is not better off being state-run. With the moral hazards inherent in insurance, it always lends itself to both sides trying to screw each other over, which seems horribly inefficient in a way that even the power of the markets cannot overcome (even before you consider the fact that a dollar spent on prevention is much better than a dollar spent on treatment).

And can anyone explain to me how McCain's plan of causing employer-paid health plan premiums to no longer be tax-deductible makes any sense? Flea?



It is the policy of the documentary crew to remain true observers and not interfere with its subjects.

If there's a god, He's laughing at us and our football team.
CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.86
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    If you are comfortable with a backwater moron being literally a heartbeat away from becoming a future president within the next 4-8 years, then more power to you. :)
Oh, come on.



Broncolanche
Sujuk








Since: 2.6.03
From: Littleton, CO

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.41
Seriously. Let's say McCain is elected, dies while in office and we get President Palin. Would you be comfortable, especially with what we know about her so far?

(edited by Broncolanche on 8.10.08 1128)
JimBob Skeeter
Bratwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: MN

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.44
I'd be more comfortable with with that than President Obama. No, I don't care to elaborate. That's just how I feel.
Cerebus
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Since: 17.11.02

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    Seriously. Let's say McCain is elected, dies while in office and we get President Palin. Would you be comfortable, especially with what we know about her so far?


Are you trying to be the mirror universe version of Grimis?

Geesh, What's with the attacks on his age? You can't come up with anything bad to say about his policies so you make fun of his age, really classy there Ann Colture; how about mentioning his liver spots next?

...and 'backwater moron'? Really? McCain's been in the political scene since 1981 when he retired from the Navy. Before that, he was in the navy for 30 years. He's done and given far more for this country then you EVER will. How about showing the guy at least SOME respect.

As for being comfortable with a President Palin, she's three years YOUNGER then Obama AND she's been in the political scene for five years longer then him. Shouldn't this give her an edge over him?

(edited by Cerebus on 8.10.08 1459)


Forget it Josh... it's Cerebustown.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by hansen9j
    As for socialism, I just don't understand how the insurance industry as a whole is not better off being state-run. With the moral hazards inherent in insurance, it always lends itself to both sides trying to screw each other over, which seems horribly inefficient in a way that even the power of the markets cannot overcome (even before you consider the fact that a dollar spent on prevention is much better than a dollar spent on treatment).

    And can anyone explain to me how McCain's plan of causing employer-paid health plan premiums to no longer be tax-deductible makes any sense? Flea?

Because in return, everyone would get a $2,500 tax credit ($5,000 for families) to pay for health insurance. So, for people with health insurance, the lower the tax bracket, the greater the tax benefit. Moreover, a family in the 40% tax bracket would have to have their employer paying at least $12,500 in employer-paid health insurance premiums to have a net tax increase under the plan. That'd be someone who both earned a pretty high salary and also had a pretty unbelievable health care plan from their employer. Also, for someone in the 25% bracket, their employer would have to be paying $20,000 of their premiums to come out behind. Lastly, an uninsured person could use the tax credit to buy their own insurance.

I'm not convinced that government-provided would get more people to get preventative health care. Just in looking at my colleagues, very few pay the $15 co-pay to get an annual physical. And, the government (and private hospitals, to a certain extent) generally gets stuck with the catastrophic illness or accident costs for the uninsured already. Just ask any ER doctor or look at the income statement of the public hospitals.
Broncolanche
Sujuk








Since: 2.6.03
From: Littleton, CO

Since last post: 1171 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.41
    Originally posted by Cerebus
    ...and 'backwater moron'? Really? McCain's been in the political scene since 1981 when he retired from the Navy.
I was referring to Palin, champ.


    As for being comfortable with a President Palin, she's three years YOUNGER then Obama AND she's been in the political scene for five years longer then him. Shouldn't this give her an edge over him?

I don't think I have to go through a laundry list of what's exactly wrong with her, do I?

And yes, there is a good chance that McCain could be no more in the next eight years.

(edited by Broncolanche on 8.10.08 1215)
CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.86
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    Seriously. Let's say McCain is elected, dies while in office and we get President Palin. Would you be comfortable, especially with what we know about her so far?

    (edited by Broncolanche on 8.10.08 1128)
I have said as much. (The W) I will take it further - I'd rather have McCain's veep as prez than Bob Barr's veep as prez. But I'm still a likely voter for Barr.

Saying stuff like "backwater moron" will tend to get labels slapped on YOU, but we shouldn't have to go there in EITHER direction.


    I don't think I have to go through a laundry list of what's exactly wrong with her, do I?
Sure, let's see your laundry list. Can you post it without resorting to pejoratives?

Also, if we're talking lists and you don't mind me asking, where on your list of issues is "choice of vice president" when it comes to choosing to cast your vote for president?



Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 458 days
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.91
    Originally posted by Cerebus
      Originally posted by Broncolanche
      Seriously. Let's say McCain is elected, dies while in office and we get President Palin. Would you be comfortable, especially with what we know about her so far?


    Are you trying to be the mirror universe version of Grimis?

    Geesh, What's with the attacks on his age? You can't come up with anything bad to say about his policies so you make fun of his age, really classy there Ann Colture; how about mentioning his liver spots next?

    ...and 'backwater moron'? Really? McCain's been in the political scene since 1981 when he retired from the Navy. Before that, he was in the navy for 30 years. He's done and given far more for this country then you EVER will. How about showing the guy at least SOME respect.

    As for being comfortable with a President Palin, she's three years YOUNGER then Obama AND she's been in the political scene for five years longer then him. Shouldn't this give her an edge over him?

    (edited by Cerebus on 8.10.08 1459)

He was calling Palin the backwater moron. I also didn't see any attacks on his age. McCain is 72 years old, and if elected will be older at his inaguration than any president in history. Actuarial tables show that there is a 25% chance that he will be dead in 8 years. That isn't an attack, that's a fact. As such, his Vice Presidential candidate is going to be scrutinized re: Presidential credentials more than say, his 47-year-old opponent who has a 6% chance of dying in the next 8 years.

And re: the political scene, it's more years numerically, but it's 10 years in local politics and 2 years in state politics (in the 47th most populous state) compared to 7 years in state politics and 3 years in national politics.
Downtown Bookie
Morcilla








Since: 7.4.02
From: The Inner City, Now Living In The Country

Since last post: 141 days
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.46
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
    If you are comfortable with a backwater moron being literally a heartbeat away from becoming a future president within the next 4-8 years, then more power to you. :)
I'd be comfortable with that. After all, the President of the U.S. for most of the 1990's was the governor of a backwater state; that didn't work out too badly. And, unlike him, I'm pretty sure that Governor Palin knows what the meaning of "is" is. 8-)



http://www.americasupportsyou.mil


"Share your food with the hungry, and give shelter to the homeless. Give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from relatives who need your help." - Isaiah 58:7 (New Living Translation)
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 37 min.
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.36
    Originally posted by Corajudo
    And can anyone explain to me how McCain's plan of causing employer-paid health plan premiums to no longer be tax-deductible makes any sense? Flea?

Because in return, everyone would get a $2,500 tax credit ($5,000 for families) to pay for health insurance. So, for people with health insurance, the lower the tax bracket, the greater the tax benefit. Moreover, a family in the 40% tax bracket would have to have their employer paying at least $12,500 in employer-paid health insurance premiums to have a net tax increase under the plan. That'd be someone who both earned a pretty high salary and also had a pretty unbelievable health care plan from their employer. Also, for someone in the 25% bracket, their employer would have to be paying $20,000 of their premiums to come out behind. Lastly, an uninsured person could use the tax credit to buy their own insurance.



Is the tax credit refundable, or only a credit against taxes owing? If it's only a credit against owing, it seems like it would be less likely to help the lower class/lower-middle class people who would presumably need the most help in getting insurance. Or are these people likely getting covered by some sort of economic-assistance by the government (Medicare for the poor)? Finally, is the credit only available if you actually purchase the insurance, or is it a "everybody gets the money, and we strongly suggest you put it towards insurance", because that seems less likely to be effective.

(Also, from what I've read, an individual's coverage could cost significantly more than if it was paid by his employer, both due to economies of scale and because every part of the individual's medical history could result in an increase in the cost.)



It is the policy of the documentary crew to remain true observers and not interfere with its subjects.

If there's a god, He's laughing at us and our football team.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.79
    Originally posted by Corajudo
    Because in return, everyone would get a $2,500 tax credit ($5,000 for families) to pay for health insurance. So, for people with health insurance, the lower the tax bracket, the greater the tax benefit. Moreover, a family in the 40% tax bracket would have to have their employer paying at least $12,500 in employer-paid health insurance premiums to have a net tax increase under the plan.


Removing employers ability to deduct workers health insurance will probably mean that a lot of employers stop providing insurance - so you will have an even greater number of uninsured who are then trying to turn $5k into $12.5 (assuming $12.5 is what private insurers will charge individually, which not the best assumption).

There's also no mandate that it be used to pay for health insurance - so there's a distinct possibility that everyone will be given a $5k credit, only for us to be in the exact same situation we are now (if not worse).

    Originally posted by Corajudo
    And, the government (and private hospitals, to a certain extent) generally gets stuck with the catastrophic illness or accident costs for the uninsured already. Just ask any ER doctor or look at the income statement of the public hospitals.


That is precisely why a large number of major city emergency rooms closed their doors.


(edited by Leroy on 8.10.08 1149)


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Broncolanche
Sujuk








Since: 2.6.03
From: Littleton, CO

Since last post: 1171 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.30
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Saying stuff like "backwater moron" will tend to get labels slapped on YOU, but we shouldn't have to go there in EITHER direction.

For the LAST time, I was NOT referring to MCCAIN with that remark (I can type in caps for extra enunciation too!).


    Sure, let's see your laundry list. Can you post it without resorting to pejoratives?

Let's see what I can come up with off the top of my head:

1) Her belief that homosexuality is a choice.
2) Her unwillingness to expand her knowledge on world politics.
3) Her unprofessionalism with the media.
4) Couldn't name one news publication she reads on a regular basis.
5) Couldn't name any other US Supreme Court case outside of Roe v Wade.
6) Her stubborn stance on abortion, up to the point where her teenaged daughter is forced to go through with her pregnancy and shotgun wedding, only to save face for the McCain-Palin ticket.
7) Her seeming dislike for those who are highly-educated (many of whom she would have to deal with on daily basis should McCain take office).

I can go on and on, but if you really want to know what's wrong with her just look her up on Google.


    Also, if we're talking lists and you don't mind me asking, where on your list of issues is "choice of vice president" when it comes to choosing to cast your vote for president?


How about the fact that the man she is running with is dangerously close to passing away (as pointed out by Mr. Boffo), and until it's proven otherwise, the fact that she seems too incompetent to usurp his duties as President should he be elected.

(edited by Broncolanche on 8.10.08 1240)
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 21 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.77
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
      Originally posted by CRZ
      Saying stuff like "backwater moron" will tend to get labels slapped on YOU, but we shouldn't have to go there in EITHER direction.

    For the LAST time, I was NOT referring to MCCAIN with that remark (I can type in caps for extra enunciation too!).



I don't THINK he said you were referring to MCCAIN - I just THINK he meant that calling ANYONE names like BACKWATER MORON might result in you getting INSULTED, too. (Sorry, I suck at knowing WHICH words to type in CAPS.)

I'm curious if everyone would be so speculative on McCain's health if he had a more experienced governor (or senator). I mean, if it was Romney or Fred Thompson would everyone be gasping "OMG, Romney/Thompson is a heartbeat away from the presidency!!!"?

I would imagine those who have a problem with Palin's supposed inexperience would have equally as much concern with the policies of Romney or Thompson (especially Thompson). Yet I don't believe as many people would be harping on the possibility of them becoming Prez as they do with Palin. Just my $0.02.

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 8.10.08 1455)
Broncolanche
Sujuk








Since: 2.6.03
From: Littleton, CO

Since last post: 1171 days
Last activity: 423 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.30
Rumor is that McCain really wanted Lieberman but someone else on the campaign opted for Palin.
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 458 days
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
    Originally posted by Reverend J Shaft
      Originally posted by Broncolanche
        Originally posted by CRZ
        Saying stuff like "backwater moron" will tend to get labels slapped on YOU, but we shouldn't have to go there in EITHER direction.

      For the LAST time, I was NOT referring to MCCAIN with that remark (I can type in caps for extra enunciation too!).



    I don't THINK he said you were referring to MCCAIN - I just THINK he meant that calling ANYONE names like BACKWATER MORON might result in you getting INSULTED, too. (Sorry, I suck at knowing WHICH words to type in CAPS.)

    I'm curious if everyone would be so speculative on McCain's health if he had a more experienced governor (or senator). I mean, if it was Romney or Fred Thompson would everyone be gasping "OMG, Romney/Thompson is a heartbeat away from the presidency!!!"?



    (edited by Reverend J Shaft on 8.10.08 1451)

No, that's kind of the point. McCain could have covered for a negative in his age by having some qualified for the presidency as his vice president. Instead, he choose a (IMO) underqualified Christian fundamentalist woman in an attempt to shore up support among the religious right, as well as an attempt to siphon support from Hillary Rodham Clinton. The first worked, I don't believe the second did.
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Amen, Grimis. The government spends so much money on such stupid things that it would be insane to even consider raising taxes right now. I can see the logic (kinda)
- Gugs, Return of the draft? (2003)
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