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The W - Current Events & Politics - pokerstars.com seized by the government
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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 11 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
How do you feel about this? Has it impacted you in any way?

I don't like the first ammendment implications of the government siezing domain names at the issuance of an arrest warrant. I am marginally OK with judges ordering this, as there is some question of which jurisdiction should be allowed to govern the internet.

Now, if IPV6 were in play, and we all knew the IP address of pokerstars, would it be illegal for us to circumvent the government's seizure? I assume that the servers are still online if you can reach them.




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StingArmy
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Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 46 days
Last activity: 20 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
(They also seized Full Tilt Poker and Absolute Poker's domains, no? And I believe PokerStars has re-set up shop at pokerstars.eu.)

I've been sort of following this for the past few days. I used to play a ton, had accounts on all three sites. Don't play so much anymore though. I think my wife and I combined had less than $100 in our accounts, so financially speaking it doesn't affect us too much.

I haven't really considered what, if any, ways exist for Americans to circumvent technological restrictions because it just wouldn't be worth it. When the anti-gambling banking regulations went into effect a few years ago it dried up a lot of the easy money floating out there. Now with the "Black Friday" stings, I'd wager that 90+ percent of casual American poker players been removed from the money pool. And as if that wasn't bad enough, it's going to be practically impossible to withdraw any money from any of these sites.

If you're American and you look at poker as a way to have some fun and you don't really care if you never make any money, then maybe there's still something in online poker for you. If you actually care about the money, though, for the time being it looks like you're S.O.L.

- StingArmy
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 480 days
Last activity: 440 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.89
They did this a while back with the websites that let you watch live sporting events on your computer. I know ChannelSurfing.net and ATDHE.net closed. ATDHE moved to a different domain, so congratulations government, you mildly inconvenienced people for a few days.

I'm against this stuff. I don't think this is what the Department of Homeland Security should be focusing on.

(edited by Mr. Boffo on 17.4.11 1638)
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 21 hours
Last activity: 38 min.
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.05
I think its rather silly to go after these websites considering a number of states have made table top gambling legal, however the law is the law. If I remember correctly, a lot of this legislation came from Nevada to keep their monopoly on legalize gambling. Personally, I would rather have the feds go after the casinos who are supposed to be giving their money to these states and localities who are now cash strapped. I have a casino not ten miles away that was supposed to get rid of my property taxes, surprise, surprise its gone up. I'd rather see those guys behind bars.

I also feel that if you gamble away vast amount a money you are a moron or someone with money to just throw away. It won't shock me that the real reason these things are going down are is due to money laundering or the fact they constantly cheap like the one 60 minutes did a story one a few years ago.



The Wee Baby Sheamus.
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.82
It's interesting that you start this thread for the Poker sites, as opposed to remaining silent when the torrent sites and streaming sites were seized.



Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 16 min.
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
I've only ever played an occasional freeroll on Full Tilt, so this doesn't directly affect me much. But I love TV poker, and I have a feeling that this is going to lead to a lot less poker on TV as the affiliated "play for free" sites have less incentive to sponsor the shows.

I certainly find this to be a tremendous waste of government resources. Legalize it, regulate it, and tax it.
Captaincuba
Italian








Since: 25.10.05

Since last post: 261 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.40
I know people who lost thousands Friday morning, one of which made his living grinding online. I played for a living before I settled down and had this occurred 6-7 years ago I would have lost half my bankroll as well.

From what I've gathered on 2+2 this is just the first step in what will eventually become regulated online poker in the US. Just last week Washington DC became eligible for online play, and Harrah's (now Caesars) I believe partnered a few years back with 888 Holdings to develop their potential online entity if/when the U.S. changed the UIGA to allow online poker.

From what I have read, Harrah's has switched their stance (and funding of politicians) from backing the UIGA to supporting online poker regulated by the Fed. They seem to be the ones who would benefit most from Friday both in their brick and mortar casinos and eventually online.

Lastly, talking from personal experience I can say that the online grind is far from the aquarium it was years ago. Regulation would not only benefit our economy but the games would become far softer again due to the fact that a large percentage of the casual player population was scared off by the UIGA even though technically it was never illegal for us to play online.

It will be great when that day finally arrives, but freezing the accounts Friday truly crippled hundreds of thousands of online pros. They may eventually get their cash but without a way to play they are essentially out of a job while simultaneously losing their bank account.

Sad day indeed.

CC
Captaincuba
Italian








Since: 25.10.05

Since last post: 261 days
Last activity: 135 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.40
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
    I've only ever played an occasional freeroll on Full Tilt, so this doesn't directly affect me much. But I love TV poker, and I have a feeling that this is going to lead to a lot less poker on TV as the affiliated "play for free" sites have less incentive to sponsor the shows.

    I certainly find this to be a tremendous waste of government resources. Legalize it, regulate it, and tax it.


ESPN pulled all of its poker content Friday afternoon on their web pages and many of the soon to be taped tournaments are now in limbo as well.

The WSoP will also be greatly effected as thousands of the seats were won online via satellite tournaments.

Friday not only effected the online grinders, it may very well end up killing a number of poker-related jobs as well.

CC
wannaberockstar
Morcilla








Since: 7.3.02
From: MA

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
I'm glad that all of the governments problems have been solved so that the government can focus on shutting down websites that will just be back up and running in a week or so.

Note to the US government: You do not own the Internet, no matter how much you want to.
supersalvadoran
Landjager








Since: 10.1.08
From: westbury, new york

Since last post: 1 day
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.00
I don't get this at all. If the government has such a moral objection to this, why aren't they going after all the free porno sites on the internet? Not that I want that to actually happen. *Ahem*

The point is that this seems to be as bad an idea as Prohibition was. With my own personal problems these days, I would think there would be more important things for the government to work on. I guess higher gas prices than ever, more foreclosed houses than ever, more shuttered big business in the area than ever, and our benefits getting shut off because we can't get enough hours to work full time in this 'recovering' economy aren't as important an issue as stopping people from making money playing cards.













Teapot
Kishke








Since: 1.8.02
From: Louisville KY

Since last post: 192 days
Last activity: 17 hours
#11 Posted on
From what I've read, the online poker sites were committing fraud in trying get their money from players:

    Originally posted by Financial Times
    The new indictment relies not only on gambling claims, which might not win extradition from countries where gambling is legal, but also bank fraud.

    Preet Bharara, US attorney for the Southern District of New York, said the companies involved, in seeking channels for payments from users in the country, created bogus firms that claimed transactions were for golf clubs, flowers and other fictitious purchases.




lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 21 hours
Last activity: 38 min.
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.05
There is a difference between morally objecting and committing crime which these sites were doing. We all love free downloads and torrents, but if someone gets caught with it, they go to jail. I am sure the "Don't you guys have something better to do argument with my tax money" won't hold up in court. I never did any money tournaments online, because it seemed like a bad idea and now I glad I didn't. I love poker to and the WSoP is must see viewing at my house, but really who didn't see this coming?



The Wee Baby Sheamus.
Big G
Potato korv








Since: 21.8.03
From: the people who brought you Steel Magnolias....

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#13 Posted on
You know what pissed me off? I'm not a US citizen, nor am I in the US at the moment - haven't been there for the best part of a decade. And yet, even though playing online poker for money is perfectly legal* I was not able to, nor was I able to access account based funds which are legally mine. Even the 'Aussie Millions' section of poker stars was non persona grata.

I'm being deliberately vexatious of course for effect, but I did briefly consider the following. The actions of the FBI has prevented the sites in question from engaging in perfectly legal business with with parties outside of the FBI's jurisdiction. In a litigious society, I am wondering whether a restraint of trade or loss of income lawsuit may follow, especially if a conviction isn't achieved?

There are some stories running down here that people are pulling their account monies fearing being caught up in a US based funds freeze, Apparently it's quite widespread. I've also heard some crazy conspiracy theories, which I'll spare you.

I'm not sure I like the idea of a government agency just yanking domains without any conviction. It doesn't seem to gel with the theory of due process and innocent until proven guilty. And as soon as I think that I consider the corner case of a { Sorry, you must be logged in to see this text! } site. Obviously everyone wants that down immediately and not having to wait for a conviction to be achieved. Hmmm. Although the argument could be made that online poker is considered by most a harmless vice (unless you've lost your home because of a gambling addiction) whereas the other is clearly not. I guess this comes under the banner of stopping the alleged crime committal from continuing, pending trial???

    Originally posted by LaTeX
    but really who didn't see this coming?**

To be honest - me. Granted I'm not fully up to speed on US gambling laws, which from my perspective seem nebulous at best. But given the ubiquitous-ness of these sites advertisements within the US, I kinda assumed that they knew what they were doing and were operating within the law of the land. Fool me I guess?

* I'm not trying to skite about having a more permissive government here. In actuality, the fact that it's still possible here is probably more due to the government of the day not being able to figure out a way to successfully legislate against it. The nanny state is truly alive and well here. Indeed it is apparent that many governments are increasingly eying the Internet and coveting control of it. And it's really starting to shit me.

** Giggity
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 1 day
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by CRZ
    It's interesting that you start this thread for the Poker sites, as opposed to remaining silent when the torrent sites and streaming sites were seized.
Well, I'm not as tied into current events as I used to be. Also, we can't really discuss torrent sites here due to our advertising agreements. So, it's not at all interesting and you know it





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Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 16 min.
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
    Originally posted by Teapot
    From what I've read, the online poker sites were committing fraud in trying get their money from players:

      Originally posted by Financial Times
      The new indictment relies not only on gambling claims, which might not win extradition from countries where gambling is legal, but also bank fraud.

      Preet Bharara, US attorney for the Southern District of New York, said the companies involved, in seeking channels for payments from users in the country, created bogus firms that claimed transactions were for golf clubs, flowers and other fictitious purchases.



That doesn't sound like fraud, exactly. It sounds like they were tring to evade laws prohibiting their activities, yes, but it sounds like they were working with their customers to acheive that, not defrauding them.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 507 days
Last activity: 507 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
This is more about buying into banks and setting up dummy companies than it is about poker. Having the online gaming being illegal caused the fraudulent actions and the laundering, but the poker part itself is the jaywalking while escaping from robbing a bank and then carjacking the getaway vehicle.
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 46 days
Last activity: 20 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
    That doesn't sound like fraud, exactly. It sounds like they were tring to evade laws prohibiting their activities, yes, but it sounds like they were working with their customers to acheive that, not defrauding them.

Bank fraud, and/or defrauding the United States, not defrauding the poker players. Both are far worse (punitively speaking).

- StingArmy
Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 16 min.
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
    Originally posted by StingArmy
      Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
      That doesn't sound like fraud, exactly. It sounds like they were tring to evade laws prohibiting their activities, yes, but it sounds like they were working with their customers to acheive that, not defrauding them.

    Bank fraud, and/or defrauding the United States, not defrauding the poker players. Both are far worse (punitively speaking).

    - StingArmy


Ah. I see. That makes sense. The players were willing partners, but the banks were not. Got it.

I went to watch the North American Poker Tour on ESPN 2 after Raw--at least that's what the onscreen cable guide said. Instead they were showing something about the NFL Draft. Coincidence, or did they pull the show because of issues with the sponsors?
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 3 days
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.19
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
      Originally posted by StingArmy
        Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
        That doesn't sound like fraud, exactly. It sounds like they were tring to evade laws prohibiting their activities, yes, but it sounds like they were working with their customers to acheive that, not defrauding them.

      Bank fraud, and/or defrauding the United States, not defrauding the poker players. Both are far worse (punitively speaking).

      - StingArmy


    Ah. I see. That makes sense. The players were willing partners, but the banks were not. Got it.

    I went to watch the North American Poker Tour on ESPN 2 after Raw--at least that's what the onscreen cable guide said. Instead they were showing something about the NFL Draft. Coincidence, or did they pull the show because of issues with the sponsors?

They've pulled all the old programming. Apparently they are still planning to broadcast the 2011 WSOP, presumably with no online poker sponsorship involved.



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.82
    Originally posted by spf
    They've pulled all the old programming. Apparently they are still planning to broadcast the 2011 WSOP, presumably with no online poker sponsorship involved.
You know what that means - BLURRED LOGOS



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While there's some truth to that, its repercussions in the short _and_ long term may be overly painful, and we may never get back to the level of reproductive freedom (abortion being legal nationwide) that we currently have.
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