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The W - Current Events & Politics - Perspectives on Arming the Pilots
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Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1177 days
Last activity: 974 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Interesting that you consider that Air Marshals are virtually nonexistant.




Bye bye you son of a bitch...

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Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#2 Posted on
I actually think that arming pilots is a retarded idea. If a plane is being hyjackes, the LAST thing I want is the pilot pulling out a gun.

Spend some money on inpenatrable doors to the cockpit. Hell- start building planes where the cockpit is in-accesible from the cabin. Hijacking becomes very difficult if the hyjacker cannot control the plane, nor see really where it is going...

Guns in this case are not the answer- common sense is...





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OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#3 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    I actually think that arming pilots is a retarded idea. If a plane is being hyjackes, the LAST thing I want is the pilot pulling out a gun.

    Spend some money on inpenatrable doors to the cockpit. Hell- start building planes where the cockpit is in-accesible from the cabin. Hijacking becomes very difficult if the hyjacker cannot control the plane, nor see really where it is going...

    Guns in this case are not the answer- common sense is...



And once again, Pool-Boy makes the exact same point I was about to, and I get really scared.



"It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?"
-----Phillip J. Fry, Futurama
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#4 Posted on
Now if I can just keep straight how to spell Hijack, all will be well-

Yeah, it can get scary Fuz- lucky for us, it seems to be a rare event. :)





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cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3194 days
Last activity: 2984 days
#5 Posted on
pool-boy that is a good point. but exactly what is so bad about a pilot haveing a weapon??? dont get me wrong you do have a good point. they will be trained and most of them already know how to shoot a weapon. so what would be so bad about it???
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1177 days
Last activity: 974 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Guns in this case are not the answer- common sense is...

The problem is that guns are the common sense answer. It's not exactly like we're going to have Dodge city in the air here. Besides, most commercial pilots are ex-military and are already familirar with small arms anyway.




Bye bye you son of a bitch...

The Thrill
Banger








Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

Since last post: 97 days
Last activity: 82 days
#7 Posted on

"America may have some problems, but it's our home. Our team. And if you don't wanna root for your team...then you should get the hell out of the stadium. Go America." --Stan Marsh, South Park

You know that stuff they make the black boxes out of...the stuff that always survives the crashes? Why don't they build the whole plane out of that? (ba-dum-bum)

Sorry...old joke, I know.



Star wipe, and...we're out.
Thrillin' ain't easy.

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THE THRILL
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Crip
Mettwurst








Since: 1.3.03

Since last post: 3802 days
Last activity: 2576 days
#8 Posted on
Something to ponder, hijackers are not stupid. If a Hijacker is aware that a certain airlines pilots carry guns, is he not likely to NOT target that airline for an hijack attempt?

Following logic, the answer would be yes. That can only be a good thing?



Stablewars.com - Fantasy Wrestling, It ain't no e-fed.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 8 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
You know, they currently have Apache Helicopters patrolling the NYC skies. However, these aren't armed. Why? Because if a terrorist somehow managed to get his hands on an Armed Apache Helicopter in the middle of New York City, it probably wouldn't turn out to good for us. It's best to just not take that risk, no matter how many precautions we could take to try and make sure this sisn't happen.

Same with airplanes. Having guns past a certain checkpoint - no matter who has them - creates a potentially very dangerous situation. Nobody counts on the terrorists getting their hands on the guns of course. But nobody counted on terrorists hijacking airplanes with knives either.

In addition, it took this country about an hour to figure out how to prevent terrorists from hijacking planes with knives and crashing them into buildings. I think if anyone tried that again, people now know how to deal with it, and would the same way they did on the fourth Sept. 11th flight. But if the hijackers managed to get their hands on a gun in the cabin, it would be a lot easier for them to keep control of the plane.

Best to not introduce a potentially very dangerous new variable into an equation we've solved, in my mind.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, 20% Black, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, and not a Hipster.
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3383 days
Last activity: 3377 days
#10 Posted on
After 9-11 it was repeatedly pointed out that the bullets the pilots would carry would be a certain grade round that penetrates flesh, but does not penetrate the hull of an aircraft. For the life of me I would have no idea why someone would say no to this.

DMC

(For Moe- How is a hijacker going to get ahold of a gun if it is locked up in the cabin?)

(edited by DMC on 16.4.03 0919)


"I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized 'cause I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation and the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more,
I don't want to die in a nuclear war.
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an apeman." -The Kinks
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 8 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
(For Moe- How is a hijacker going to get ahold of a gun if it is locked up in the cabin?)

I don't really know. I can think of a few ideas off the top of my head that might work. But that's not the point. We're not going to be able to think of everything. We were taken completely by surprise on 9-11. I doubt 1 person out of 1000 would have responded to "what's a kind of terrorist attack that's likely to happen?" with "people will hijack planes with knives and crash them into buildings."

Just because we can't think of a way it would be turned on us right now doesn't mean it can't be. And it's a risk I prefer not to take.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, 20% Black, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, and not a Hipster.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1177 days
Last activity: 974 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Just because we can't think of a way it would be turned on us right now doesn't mean it can't be. And it's a risk I prefer not to take.

The question then becomes "what's a bigger risk"

1. Arming a pilot and be worried about the off chance that the bad guy might get the gun, mitigated by the fact that the pilot can blow away aforementioned bad guy; or,

2. Not arming a pilot, having a plane taken over, and then the plane is either a) junked by the passengers as we saw in PA or b) shot down by a fighter, which'll probably happen even if the bad guy gets the pilot's gun.

There is not a single reason why we shouldn't let the pilots carry. And some people will come up with any excuse to delegitmize any need for anybody to carry a gun. Hell, one group said that the pilots could not be trusted with a gun if they took over the plane forgetting that the pilot is in control of the plane from the get go, gun or no gun.




Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#13 Posted on
Well, I just don't think there is any real point to arming pilots. Like I said- a much more effective solution would be to completely seal off the cockpit from the passenger cabin. MANY pilots are ex-military, but not all of them are. And whether or not they can handle a gun is not the issue. The pilot's job is to fly the plane, not to defend it. Put marshalls on the plane and arm THEM. All of them should recieve the proper training, and the chance of something going wrong is much smaller. Pilots don't need to engage in shootouts with the terrorists. And, again, they need to FLY THE PLANE. A struggle in a cockpit over a gun is not something that sounds too good for the passengers.

Arm the marshalls, get more of them, and seal off the cockpit. Flying the plane is all I want the pilot on my flight thinking of, no matter what is happening onboard...





Still on the Shelf #4
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1177 days
Last activity: 974 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Put marshalls on the plane and arm THEM.

That is a great idea in theory. In practice though it is highly impracitcal just due to the shear number of marshals you'd need to do it. Israel can put marshals on all El Al flights because it's a relaitvely small airline. How many thousands of flights are in the air at once? How much would it cost to pay those marshals? What makes it truly sillier as a full blown concept is that the marshals would conceivable carry the same type of piece a pilot would. Therefore, the Marshal is a completely extraneous cost.




MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 8 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
How many thousands of flights are in the air at once? How much would it cost to pay those marshals? What makes it truly sillier as a full blown concept is that the marshals would conceivable carry the same type of piece a pilot would. Therefore, the Marshal is a completely extraneous cost.

Why is it that Republicans can always seem to find the money for attacking other countries, but can never seem to find the money to defend our own country?




It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, 20% Black, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, and not a Hipster.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1177 days
Last activity: 974 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Why is it that Republicans can always seem to find the money for attacking other countries, but can never seem to find the money to defend our own country?

That's not what I said and you know it...what I said what it was more cost effective to arm pilots than to put marshals up there.




DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3383 days
Last activity: 3377 days
#17 Posted on
From my user pic you think I would be someone to be cautious and worry about all the possible dangers inherent in arming pilots (we need more real-life Dr. Malcolms). I can at least appreciate Moe's concern for chaos theory but I can't get past Grimis's idea that the benefits of arming pilots do outweigh the dangers.

DMC



"I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized 'cause I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation and the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more,
I don't want to die in a nuclear war.
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an apeman." -The Kinks
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 8 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Oh come on - I slip a little jibe in there very rarely. That was good one (and true in general to boot! Ask how much money my town has spent preventing terrorism vs. how much the government has given us for it).



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, 20% Black, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, and not a Hipster.
Hairy Caray
Bauerwurst








Since: 28.10.02
From: Wrigley Field hot dog stand

Since last post: 3601 days
Last activity: 3599 days
#19 Posted on
One solution proposed by pilots was to completely seal the pilots in, and then give them the green light to depressurize the cabin and knock everyone unconscious when there are hostiles on board. The thing is, you'd probably have to give the pilots and airlines legal protection from any passengers who suffer some sort of injury as a result.



Cubs win! Cubs win! Cubs win!
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1223 days
Last activity: 22 days
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#20 Posted on
What about the flight crew? You know, the steward/esses? We could start incorperating Marshalls into those ranks. I mean, what better position could you ask- the Marshall will then have the excuse to walk up and down the aisle, getting a feel for each and every one of the passengers.

"Sir, would you like some peanuts?"

"DIE, American scum..."

"Oh dear, we may have a problem..."

I can't wait to see that job description...

But seriously, we already have several people working oneach and every flight. I don't think the addition of one more person per plane will really affect the cost of flying all that signifigantly. A $50,000 salary comes out to about $140 per day (roughly), per plane... You figure a plane holds at least 100 people, and can make roughly 4 flights in an eight hour period (on average), your average work day- that comes out to $.35 per ticket in costs. Make it a dollar fee per segment just to cover overhead, training, and the ridiculous inflation of costs that the airlines ALWAYS claim, and it is still a very reasonable addition to the ticket price.





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I forget nothing. The point was "where are the weapons" not "blame the US for something else", even though we were at fault in this instance.
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