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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 280 days
Last activity: 274 days
#1 Posted on
This is really starting to piss me off.

To see so many people automatically siding with the OWNERS in this labor dispute has me shaking my head.

Do you think FOR THE SLIGHTEST MOMENT that these multi-billionaire owners care the slightest about you? No, they care about the money coming in for tickets. That's why the fans get such debacles as New Comiskey Park in Chicago, and ridiculous homerun fest parks like the former Enron.

They want money coming into the turnstiles, and they don't want to pay any back. That's why there may be a strike. That's why the owners REFUSED to negotiate with the union before the last damn moment, so you people would be gullible enough to say things like "oh I hope they bring up the minor leaguers for scab games".

Listen, the players would be gone, BUT THE OWNERS WOULD STILL BE THERE! Overcharging you for seats, parking and hot dogs, while paying less and less salary to less and less talented players. And that's OK by you, because you ASKED for the scabs.

Lets bring in this revenue sharing nonsense. Do you think that Loria will put up a competitive team if he knows exactly how much money he's going to bring in at the end of the season NO MATTER WHAT HIS RECORD IS? Or will he fill his team up with useless minimum wage guys, and skim even more profit from low salaries?

As far as the players making so much money, BOO HOO. So what if they have more athletic talent in their pinkie than your family has had for generations? If you can look past the jealousy for a nanosecond, realize that they have a federally recognized union, and have rights to strike under that. Juat like that actor making more than you. Just like the Detroit assembly line worker making more than you. The players are not negotiating for anything new...they want what they already have, and what they are legally entitled to.

Don't let yourselves be manipulated by this group of corporate morons, led by the ultimate moron Selig.




George Washington gave his signature
The Government gave its hand
They said for now and ever more that this was Indian Land

"As long as the moon shall rise"
"As long as the rivers flow"
"As long as the sun will shine"
"As long as the grass shall grow"


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Whitebacon
Boudin blanc








Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 14 days
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#2 Posted on
AMEN BROTHA...Thank you for that post.
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 5 hours
Last activity: 3 hours
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#3 Posted on
You know what, I agree. I think, as a genenal rule, Unions went out in about the 40s as a need, but I agree they have the right to strike. But just like ComAir and just like UPS (both strikes that both management and Labor could have solved without a strike for the good of their customers), I won't use patronize them any more.

Striking is their right. Following other sports is mine.



We'll be back as soon as order is restored.....
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 118 days
Last activity: 41 days
#4 Posted on
Looks like someone is jealous of the owners.
The Psycho Pirate
Chorizo








Since: 31.3.02
From: Earth-Three

Since last post: 4273 days
Last activity: 4000 days
#5 Posted on

Do you think the players CARE about the fans, either? The millionaires, with their bling bling, Escalades with tinted windows and built-in TV sets?

And if the owners wanted to keep salaries down, the union would just scream Collusion.

I think they're both wrong, but the system is unbalanced in favor of the players and I'd like to see it swing a little farther the other way.

I wonder what the players would say if the owners got rid of the salary cap proposal in exchange for losing arbitration, which probably has more to do wit the escalation of the salaries than nudnick owners like Tom Hicks.



You're all so WONDERFUL. Why did they ever have to remove you from the continuity? You'd have made for MARVELOUS stories. You WILL make marvelous stories. And the FIRST story of the new world will be a story of REVENGE! -- The Psycho Pirate, Animal Man 23, May 1990.
SerWolfe
Landjager








Since: 11.1.02
From: st louis

Since last post: 4159 days
Last activity: 4159 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
It is hard to sympathize with either side. This is a game for the fans and everyone seems to be acting on greed. I see points on both sides... but comeon... this is a problem that should be take care of easily and such with the fans in mind. I love the game but i dont like the politics.



Screw the strike date! Go Cardinals!
PeterStork
Sujuk








Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 650 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#7 Posted on
SerWolfe has it right, but as far as the original post goes, the reason so many people side with the owners is because they're right. No, most owners don't really care about the fans, either, or they wouldn't have let the industry sink this far. But when it comes down to, "Let's tax the rich teams and redistribute the wealth to the lesser ones and give them a better chance; whether they utilize that opportunity or not is up to them," or, "Rich teams should stay rich," I'll take the former any day.

Don't think owners don't want to win, there's just not always the opportunity. Why wouldn't Jeff Loria want a Series title? He's just not going to mortgage everything on one year like Wayne Huizenga did and force a fire sale less than a week after the series (thanks for the shortstop, Wayne!) I mean, I'm spoiled by the Cardinals' wonderful owners putting winning before everything, but you can't expect all owners to work miracles. First you need put everyone on a (somewhat more) level playing field, then when management doesn't try, they have NO excuse whatsoever. One can't blame the Padres or Pirates for not trying to compete in the current environment.

It comes down to this: the owners are the lesser of two evils. If you really love the game, side with them for now, then when they get what they want (or at least close) hold them accountable. Think the US and USSR in World War II, people. Sort of.

As far as bashing Selig goes, please. The guy has been far from perfect (ousting Fay Vincent, trying to contract the Twins when the Devil Rays were RIGHT THERE, allowing the 1994 stoppage to have absolutely no silver lining) but most of his critics simply berate the guy because there's no other visable target (save Donald Fehr, and any baseball fan who passes up an opportunity to take potshots at him should be banned from all ballparks forever.) Selig's tried to make the best of a string of bad situations (like the All-Star Game, which was TOTALLY not his fault,) and come up short. Hell, let's use the old WCW management theory spouted by everyone from Jarrett to Bischoff to Russo: you can't succeed under Time Warner's umbrella because they stifle your creativity. It might not have been totally true in Atlanta, but in MLB's case I think it is. So Selig cancelled the Series in '94; so what? Should we have played it with replacement players? He couldn't force the players back on the field.

Sorry for the rant, but I find myself annoyed by people who go after Bud. He's not the best man for the job, but who is?



{ exit 670 dot com } - Oh, it's true
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 280 days
Last activity: 274 days
#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by PeterStork
    Don't think owners don't want to win, there's just not always the opportunity. Why wouldn't Jeff Loria want a Series title? He's just not going to mortgage everything on one year like Wayne Huizenga did and force a fire sale less than a week after the series (thanks for the shortstop, Wayne!)


Have you paid any attention to Loria's track record? Why are his former co-owners suing him? There is a huge difference between not being able to win and not TRYING to win. Look at the Brewers, supposedly the most profitable team in the ML last season, can you REALLY say they've been TRYING to win? Or can you really see that far up Selig's...



    Originally posted by PeterStork
    One can't blame the Padres or Pirates for not trying to compete in the current environment.


So they AREN'T trying to win. But they CAN go to their cities and get nice new ballparks...


    Originally posted by PeterStork
    Selig's tried to make the best of a string of bad situations (like the All-Star Game, which was TOTALLY not his fault,) and come up short.


No it wasn;t completely his fault, except for the Ted Williams award fiasco...and he has virtually every time come up short, which is why mahy baseball writers call him the "Village Idiot."


    Originally posted by The Psycho Pirate
    And if the owners wanted to keep salaries down, the union would just scream Collusion.


Which the owners WERE CONVICTED OF BEFORE. So give them a chance to do it again...


    Originally posted by ges7184
    Looks like someone is jealous of the owners.


Sure am! Anyone who can stash away millions of dollars and be able to manipulate public opinion like they do, sure.






George Washington gave his signature
The Government gave its hand
They said for now and ever more that this was Indian Land

"As long as the moon shall rise"
"As long as the rivers flow"
"As long as the sun will shine"
"As long as the grass shall grow"


PeterStork
Sujuk








Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 650 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous



    Have you paid any attention to Loria's track record? Why are his former co-owners suing him?



    So now, after going off on all owners, you assume that people suing Loria are the rare good breed of owners, kind souls that want only to win. Loria was used as example, so I followed suit. Unfortunately, he's probably one of the worst examples possible, but the point remains: give him a level playing field, or as much as one as possible, and THEN judge him. Between Montreal and Florida, you can't have expected him to try to win thus far. He has no track record. The lawsuit is irrelevant; MLB planned to contract Montreal, and the owner of the Expos wanted to remain in the game. Boston's wanted out, Florida's wanted to change. Yeah, that's dumbing things way down, but it still has nothing to do with the possible work stoppage or trying to give every team a chance. A positive solution.

    I mean, do you want the system to remain like it is now? What kind of logic is that? Instead you'd rather go off on both sides and offer no conclusion.


    Look at the Brewers, supposedly the most profitable team in the ML last season, can you REALLY say they've been TRYING to win? Or can you really see that far up Selig's...



    http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2001/1205/1290765.html

    The Brewers were profitable, making about 15 million dollars. Big f'n deal. They GROSSED 113 million, while the Cardinals grossed 132 million, and the Astros grossed 124. That means St. Louis and Houston have 19 and 11 million dollars more respectively to spend on talent/operations, giving Milwaukee a disadvantage. So the former two should pay a luxury tax, giving the others more of an advantage. Well, the Yankees (242 million!) would pay the majority of that tax. The point: your logic is wrong. It doesn't matter if you're profitable; all you have to do is keep costs down for that. In baseball, it matters, under the current system, how much you bring in, so that you can spend it on your roster.

    The last line, about Selig...nice touch. CHEAP SHOTS~!


    So they AREN'T trying to win. But they CAN go to their cities and get nice new ballparks...



    The whole "new ballpark" deal is a joke; the Pirates won't win one more ballgame in/because of PNC Park than Three Rivers. Again, though, that has nothing to do with the possible work stoppage. Hell, since most of the parks are publicly financed, you can't say the owners are throwing money possibly spent on players away on new ballparks. So why even bring this up? Distracting from the main issue...?



    { exit 670 dot com } - Oh, it's true
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 1 hour
#10 Posted on
One thing that often gets lost in the shuffle is that baseball isn't the owners bread and butter. These guys are all successful businessmen outside the game. Sure they are taking a hit if there is a strike, but I'm also sure it's a huge write off.

In all realitly baseball screwed baseball. It's a huge cliche but I don't know of any other way to put it.

I guarantee you if the players did a private vote that most of them would vote NO on the strike. There's to many middle of the row players that are losing out if the union gets there way.



Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 280 days
Last activity: 274 days
#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by PeterStork
    So now, after going off on all owners, you assume that people suing Loria are the rare good breed of owners, kind souls that want only to win. Loria was used as example, so I followed suit. Unfortunately, he's probably one of the worst examples possible, but the point remains: give him a level playing field, or as much as one as possible, and THEN judge him. Between Montreal and Florida, you can't have expected him to try to win thus far. He has no track record. The lawsuit is irrelevant; MLB planned to contract Montreal, and the owner of the Expos wanted to remain in the game. Boston's wanted out, Florida's wanted to change. Yeah, that's dumbing things way down, but it still has nothing to do with the possible work stoppage or trying to give every team a chance. A positive solution.


The lawsuit contends he intentionally tried to kill off the Expos. His track record (which you are ignoring) suggests the same. The lawsuit is EXTREMELY relevant because it concerns a current owner, bent on squeezing another team.


    Originally posted by PeterStork
    The Brewers were profitable, making about 15 million dollars. Big f'n deal. They GROSSED 113 million, while the Cardinals grossed 132 million, and the Astros grossed 124. That means St. Louis and Houston have 19 and 11 million dollars more respectively to spend on talent/operations, giving Milwaukee a disadvantage. So the former two should pay a luxury tax, giving the others more of an advantage. Well, the Yankees (242 million!) would pay the majority of that tax. The point: your logic is wrong. It doesn't matter if you're profitable; all you have to do is keep costs down for that. In baseball, it matters, under the current system, how much you bring in, so that you can spend it on your roster.


The Brewers were profitable because they decided to draw fans short-term with a new ballpark while playing jobboy to the rest of the major league AND while Selig was in the captain's seat. Since they have already madethe decision to not be competitive, and with revenue sharing they will be making the same money pretty much no matter what, why change now?


    Originally posted by PeterStork
    The whole "new ballpark" deal is a joke; the Pirates won't win one more ballgame in/because of PNC Park than Three Rivers. Again, though, that has nothing to do with the possible work stoppage. Hell, since most of the parks are publicly financed, you can't say the owners are throwing money possibly spent on players away on new ballparks. So why even bring this up? Distracting from the main issue...?


PUBLICLY FINANCED! Right! They spent NOTHING but still made money. They won't win one more ballgame with the new park! Right! They don't HAVE TO. The point is, the owners won't do anything money-wise they don't have to. That's why the only way revenue sharing MIGHT work is if there were a MINIMUM salary each team must meet.



George Washington gave his signature
The Government gave its hand
They said for now and ever more that this was Indian Land

"As long as the moon shall rise"
"As long as the rivers flow"
"As long as the sun will shine"
"As long as the grass shall grow"


ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 118 days
Last activity: 41 days
#12 Posted on
I think the Milawkee situation is a good example of what is wrong. The most profitable model is one where a team doesn't even try to win. Now they could try to win, but lose money in the process. Or they could choose to make a profit. The owner has made a business decision to make money, which is the proper one. The system needs to be changed where one can win and still be profitable. Under the current system you almost have to be in the top 10 in payroll, which of course means a payroll at ridiculous levels, which pretty much means you can't make money, at least for any length of time (you can have a year every once in while where you do OK, but teams can't maintain that, as they eventually lose their players to other teams).
PeterStork
Sujuk








Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 650 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#13 Posted on

Since they have already madethe decision to not be competitive, and with revenue sharing they will be making the same money pretty much no matter what, why change now?



Simple. Florida packed fans into Pro Player back in 1997 with a winning team. If Milwaukee CAN win, then maybe they'll try, since that would sell out even old County Stadium. Again, you're ignoring the fact that you can't hold small market teams accountable under the current system. Fix things, then you can blame the owners who don't care all you want. Until then, they have a legitimate excuse.


The lawsuit contends he intentionally tried to kill off the Expos.



How? By trading away guys he couldn't afford to pay? Did he force Selig to try to contract his team? His former partners are just jealous he's still in the game.

(Disclaimer) I'm no real fan of Loria's, but give the guy a little credit. I don't like having to stand up for him, but as far as trying to win, no one who only ran the Expos DOESN'T have a track record: he didn't have a legitimate chance to win. Give him a decent CBA and he will, and then hold him accountable.




{ exit 670 dot com } - Oh, it's true
pieman
As young as
he feels








Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

Since last post: 2 days
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


Eddie Famous is my hero.

A voice of reason even.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 1 hour
#15 Posted on
Reason in baseball...HA!

Here's a look at what a luxary tax that isn't even hitting until next year has NBA owners doing... Click Here

try working that out in baseball

(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 25.8.02 2256)


PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2776 days
Last activity: 2619 days
AIM:  
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    This is really starting to piss me off.

    Listen, the players would be gone, BUT THE OWNERS WOULD STILL BE THERE! Overcharging you for seats, parking and hot dogs, while paying less and less salary to less and less talented players. And that's OK by you, because you ASKED for the scabs.




Less and less salary? Huh? The average player
salary has skyrocketed in the past quarter century. I live in Red Sox country, and we all know about overpaying bad players here (Offerman, Oliver, etc).


For Pete's sake... The owners, well, OWN. If they want to charge money, they have EVERY RIGHT. It's stupid to try and find some legal solution to this, like banning them from charging x number of dollars. But, you know what? We absolutely do not have to open our wallets and pay for this product if we don't like it. If we really want to do something, the best solution is just to stop paying money for it. That'll shut 'em up. When ratings are lowest, the wrestling scene shakes up the most. Witness the desparation of WCW. It follows that when people stop paying to see baseball, then owners and players will be forced to come up with a workable solution if they want MLB, and their livelihoods, to remain intact.

Furthermore, what do you think will happen with a luxury tax in place? It will still be only the richest teams who can afford to go over, and thus pay the tax. And then, what? How do the owners afford to field a winning team? By charging too much for a hot dog, probably.

The bottom line is that fan expectations and player salaries drive up costs. No one wants to pay to see a shitty team, so it becomes a vicious cycle. But to attract people into your park, you need a winning team, and that often necessitates paying top dollar to top (and not-so-top) talent.

And can we lay off people for (gasp!) wanting to make money? Does anyone here feel morally obligated to do their job for free? Should store owners give away free merchandise out of the goodness of their hearts? Baseball, by its nature, can generate a lot of revenue. Is it wrong that those involved in baseball want some of the revenue that they have earned?

//edit: because (slaps forehead) I missed your point about the less talented players being scabs. d'oh!

(edited by PalpatineW on 25.8.02 2346)

(edited by PalpatineW on 25.8.02 2346)

Using a key to gouge expletives on another's vehicle is a sign of trust and friendship.
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 280 days
Last activity: 274 days
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    because (slaps forehead) I missed your point about the less talented players being scabs. d'oh!


Bwaha! How's your lawn looking Carl? :)



George Washington gave his signature
The Government gave its hand
They said for now and ever more that this was Indian Land

"As long as the moon shall rise"
"As long as the rivers flow"
"As long as the sun will shine"
"As long as the grass shall grow"


spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 31 days
Last activity: 6 days
AIM:  
#18 Posted on
I have a question about these negotiations which I thought I would bring up here, since Eddie seems to be the most informed man I know about the economics involved. I understand why the owners have to negotiate with the players on issues like contraction (amount of positions available), steroid testing, pensions, etc. What I do not understand is why it is in the players realm to have a say in how the various owners choose to divide up the revenue amongst the franchises (revenue sharing, luxury tax, etc.) None of these proposals mention anything about any particular salary levels or anything which might normally be negotiated by real world unions. Is there a legal catch I'm missing here, or is it just that the unique nature of MLBPA, with its members being rather hard to adequately replace, gives them bargaining powers above and beyond that which they are legally obligated to?



You never know when you'll meet that special someone... the someone that's mysteriously blind to your flaws. or, you know, stupid enough not to realize that yes, you really are that cynical.
evilwaldo
Lap cheong








Since: 7.2.02
From: New York, NY

Since last post: 3354 days
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Eddie,

Great post.

After the last strike I quit going to see baseball games. Every year I would go to 10 or 15 Phillies games just to see baseball because my favorite team is the Reds. This year was the first year I saw a major league baseball game since the strike and the only reason was that I had the opportunity to see a game at Fenway Park. I am personally sick and tired of all of the crap thrown out there by both sides. I hope there is a strike and the sport is destroyed.





These commercials are superfine because they pay for the production costs of putting CHRIS MOTHERFUCKING BENOIT on my GODDAMN TV SCREEN! I will GO GREYHOUND! I am thinking OUTSIDE THE BUN! Dean Rasmussen 8/1/2002 Smackdown Workrate Report
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This sounds like something that a player would demand in a contract negotiation. Sir A-Rod?
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