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The W - Baseball - Palmeiro tests positiove for steroids (Page 2)
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The King of Keith
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Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.35
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    Canseco was right about him the whole time. Palmeiro was borderline HOF to start, now they can just take McGriff instead. Palmeiro deserves the Martha Stewart treatment. Now that the Nats and O's turned to pumpkins, DC has nothing better to do than drag this out.

    His original statment was, "I have never used steroids. Period." His revised statement goes like (I have never intentionally used steroids.) So if he was just blindly popping pills and getting jabbed by needles, his second statement could be truthful, but the first would still be a lie.

    As for Giambi, hopefully he's just smart enough to take the kind of steroids they can't detect.


Borderline HOF????? I guess having 3,000 hits and 500+ HR isn't enough?

This is just disappointing. Have they mentioned what type of steroid it was or how he took it? I'm rather curious. I can't imagine someone being so vehement and against steroids actually doing them, knowing that he'd be made a fool of if he was caught.






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Since: 23.7.04
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.87
Anyone that thinks Raffy isn't a Hall of Famer (pre scandal) isn't looking at his career accomplishments too hard. Not only is he a HOFer, but he is also one of the ten best first basemen in modern history (post 1900).

EDIT: No doubt this hurts his candidacy. What the original poster said was that even before this came out (i.e. assuming he never used steroids) he was borderline. My contention is that, if achieved naturally, those are HOF numbers without question.

(edited by BigSteve on 2.8.05 1723)


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Since: 2.1.02
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.46
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    Anyone that thinks Raffy isn't a Hall of Famer (pre scandal) isn't looking at his career accomplishments too hard.

It all depends on how you define "pre-scandal". If I feel that the "scandal" is his use of steroids, and I believe that his use coincides with his increase in power numbers, he doesn't belong in the Hall, his personal trainer does.



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Since: 22.4.02
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.53


If you had Ryan Franklin on your fantasy team, there's ALREADY no hope.



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Since: 24.3.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
Franklin's right in a way, though. None of these guys seem to know which things are allowed and which aren't. I think a lot of the decrease in numbers can be attributed to guys not taken any supplements at all, because they're afraid of testing positive. Baseball should have a list of approved dietary supplements, ones known not to have any illegal ingredients in them.



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BigSteve
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Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.87
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    Franklin's right in a way, though. None of these guys seem to know which things are allowed and which aren't. I think a lot of the decrease in numbers can be attributed to guys not taken any supplements at all, because they're afraid of testing positive. Baseball should have a list of approved dietary supplements, ones known not to have any illegal ingredients in them.


They surely ought to know what is OK and what isn't since they got a list of banned substances in the spring. The intelligent thing to do from there is not to take anything unless you're sure that it is OK. I'd be shocked if the people putting up the "I had no idea" act weren't complete liars trying to salvage their reputation.

As for suplying an additional list of legal products, I doubt MLB is really keen on tacitly encouraging the use of any sort of performance enhancing substance, legal or not.



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Since: 4.1.02
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.96
Good point on PTI today......if you're Palmeiro, why aren't you coming out and explaining exactly what mistaken drug you took and how it got into your system? He's not doing himself any favours by keeping mum aside from his token press conference.

And once again, George W. Bush makes himself look like an idiot. He spends time in the State of the Union talking about the drug crackdown in MLB, and then immediately declares that his old Rangers pal Raffy must be telling the truth.



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Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.86
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Good point on PTI today......if you're Palmeiro, why aren't you coming out and explaining exactly what mistaken drug you took and how it got into your system? He's not doing himself any favours by keeping mum aside from his token press conference.

    And once again, George W. Bush makes himself look like an idiot. He spends time in the State of the Union talking about the drug crackdown in MLB, and then immediately declares that his old Rangers pal Raffy must be telling the truth.


The best theory I've heard is that the Union doesn't want him to talk about it because then that puts the pressure on every subsequent player that tests positive to explain himself. It's kind of like how the Union probably didn't want players doing voluntary testing (before the MLB testing was instituted) because then everyone that declined a reporter's request to get drug tested immediately becomes branded as a steroid user. Of course the alternate explanation is that Raffy is flat out guilty and there is nothing to explain.

And why does Bush look like an idiot? Is trusting your friends (or whatever their relationship is) to tell the truth really that horrible a quality? I mean, when he said that, I didn't assume that he took any chemical samples of Palmeiro's urine.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.02
A few more details given to me by folks allegedly in the know, but you may want to take these with a grain of salt.

First, Raffy apparently tested positive for two steroids -- the *exact* two that Canseco listed in his book. I didn't read Canseco's book; did he list two specific ones?

Second, this isn't an August test, apparently this test was in May and was drawwwwwwwn out by both sides mainly so Raffy could get hit #3K before the scandal. Raffy's reasoning for that, of course, is obvious, but MLB seemed to have a bit of kindness in their hearts by letting the appeals drag on long enough.
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Since: 22.4.02
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.53
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    As for suplying an additional list of legal products, I doubt MLB is really keen on tacitly encouraging the use of any sort of performance enhancing substance, legal or not.


Yes, but there's also going to be those players who won't take anything, as well as those who will. Why not at least provide the latter with whatever socially acceptable supplements they'd use anyway? The whole point is that then, if MLB does provide approved supplements, or at least a list of them, then there'd be no excuses. Hell, if someone goes back to their home country for their, ahem, supplements (according to one player's anecdotes) they can bring 'em back to MLB and have them checked out. If they're clean, then those go on the good list too. No, a white list won't eradicate staroids, but it'll provide a whole lot less in the way of excuses.



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Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.04
I don't know where MLB gets their standards from, but surely something like this(which took 2 minutes to find):
http://www.usantidoping.org/contact/line.html
Would have fairly accurate responses to any questions.

Corajudo
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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.92
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
    Raffy apparently tested positive for two steroids -- the *exact* two that Canseco listed in his book. I didn't read Canseco's book; did he list two specific ones?

    Second, this isn't an August test, apparently this test was in May and was drawwwwwwwn out by both sides mainly so Raffy could get hit #3K before the scandal. Raffy's reasoning for that, of course, is obvious, but MLB seemed to have a bit of kindness in their hearts by letting the appeals drag on long enough.


According to the NYT, he tested positive for stanozolol, known by the brand name Winstrol, which was Ben Johnson's steriod of choice. Link (registration required): http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/sports/baseball/03steroids.html

Bottom line is that this isn't something you can take by accident or pick up in some supplement at GNC. And, I don't buy these players' excuses. Each team has trainers, and it is the player's responsibility to know what he is putting into his system. Anyone who doesn't want to do the legwork themself can check with someone on the team medical staff.

Lastly, as far as delaying the appeals process to make sure that he got the 3,000 hits first; that's just sorry. Maybe I can't blame him, but this is just one more reason that Selig is a disgrace to the game.



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Since: 17.3.02
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
And now Canseco's writing a new book.



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Since: 9.2.02

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.07
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    Anyone that thinks Raffy isn't a Hall of Famer (pre scandal) isn't looking at his career accomplishments too hard. Not only is he a HOFer, but he is also one of the ten best first basemen in modern history (post 1900).
He has:
- never won an MVP (and only placed in the top ten 3 times)
- never won a batting title
- never led the league in homers or RBI
- surpassed 200 hits once in a season
- four 40+ HR seasons
- six seasons with a BA .300 plus (including 1994)

A case could be made that he was never the best all around first baseman in the game for any year that he played. To list a few of the others at 1B (at least from 91-03):

1991: Cecil Fielder, Mark McGwire, Frank Thomas
1992: Fielder, McGwire, Thomas
1993: McGwire, Thomas, John Olerud
1994: Thomas
1995: Mo Vaughn, Thomas, McGwire
1996: John Jaha, Vaughn, Thomas, McGwire, Thome, Galarraga
1997: Tino Martinez, Vaughn, Thomas, Thome, Jeff Bagwell, Galarraga
1998: Vaughn, McGwire, Galarraga, Olerud
1999: McGwire, Bagwell, Butch Huskey
2000: Thomas, Carlos Delgado, Thome, Jason Giambi, Darren Erstad, Todd Helton, Jeff Bagwell
2001: Thome, Giambi, Helton
2002: Helton, Mike Sweeney
2003: Delgado, Helton, Pujols

The guy was a great hitter, was always "up there", and played a decent first base (deserved NONE of the GGs). His total numbers will get him into the HOF, I believe. He was, however, never the guy you looked over at your buddy and said, "WOW, this guy is one of the BEST of all time!" I wholeheartedly disagree with the assertion that he is anywhere near the 10 greatest first baseman of all time.


(yes, Butch Huskey was put in there as a joke)



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Since: 12.2.02
From: Cleveland, Ohio

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.12
Out of all of this, I love the reaction Will Clark had (as heard on ESPN radio): "Heh, you got caught, pardner!"



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.46
    Originally posted by whatever
    Out of all of this, I love the reaction Will Clark had (as heard on ESPN radio): "Heh, you got caught, pardner!"

Along with the e-mailer on the Dan Patrick Show today who said that Rafael Palmeiro was just Mark Grace on steroids!



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Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.87

    I wholeheartedly disagree with the assertion that he is anywhere near the 10 greatest first baseman of all time.


He's not even near the top 10? So you're saying he's not in the top 15? Try to make a list of the top 10-15 First Basemen (post-1900). I tried to do it becuase I didn't think that Palmeiro was that high myself but he really is. You can even look at something like Win Shares and Raffy is in the top 10. I guarantee you won't do it without putting Palmeiro on there.


    He was, however, never the guy you looked over at your buddy and said, "WOW, this guy is one of the BEST of all time!"


No he wasn't one of the top 25 (or even 50 probably) players in Major League history. But that's not what the Hall of Fame is trying to accomplish. There are tons of people in the Hall that aren't anywhere near that level and aren't even in the same tier as Palmeiro. By the standards that the HOF has set, Raffy is in comfortably.

Some of your top player lists are a little suspect as well. No way was Jaha better in '96, or Erstad was better in '00, or Olerud in '98. And among the others there are a lot that probably aren't appreciably better but rather just about equal.

The point isn't to be the very best player at your position for one or two years but to be among the best for a long period of time. If you actually made a list of the top 5 1B in the league each year since '90, Palmeiro would be on there at least 10 or 11 times. I don't think anyone else would be on there that much.

500 HR and 3,000 hits. Only three other players in the history of the game have done that. Not Ruth or Gehrig or Robinson or whoever you want to name. I'm not saying that Palmeiro was better than them, but the fact is that he accomplished both milestones, and they didn't. The only caseto be made against Palmeiro going into the Hall is his steroid use, and I'm not even going to address that (mainly because I haven't made up my mind on whether or how that should affect his candidacy).



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Since: 2.1.03
From: MA

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.31
My local paper had an article in today's edition about Palmeiro and the steroid Stanozolol. I can't provide a link because they require a subscription to have access to their webpage but I'll provide the main points of the article....

1. "It appears to be moderately effective in building muscle, but not as potent as some alternatives."

Raffy was never as big as other alleged steroid users such as Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and Giambi.

2. "Stanozolol could help a player avoid serious injury because it helps the body recover from physical stress. Palmeiro forged potential hall of fame career numbers based largely on longevity. In 20 years, he never went on the disabled list."

Pretty accurate description of Palmeiro's career But the next point is very interesting...

3. "It sticks around: When injected, it can be detected by drug testing for up to several months later."

If he did take steroids before he testified before congress; oh man...



(edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 5.8.05 2045)

(edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 6.8.05 1344)

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