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The W - Pro Wrestling - WWE RAW #1195 4/25/2016
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Mr Shh
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Since: 9.1.02
From: Monmouth County, NJ

Since last post: 1286 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
Slotting the in-ring debut of Anderson and Gallows at the top of the second hour was an interesting choice. As was letting them work that long of a match in front of a pretty shitty crowd. Not a bad match at all, just a wee bit too long. Meanwhile, the women, at least this week, are back to doing three minute specials.

Styles vs. Sheamus, Zayn vs. Rusev and the Ambrose/Jericho segment were a lot of fun.

The Zayn/Owens video package was great. It was very similar to the one they did for one of their NXT matches. Ideally, it'd be great to have footage of their storied rivalry to accompany them talking about it.





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DirtyMikeSeaver
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Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 1582 days
Last activity: 1582 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
My favorite part of the show, and possibly the year, was when it took 3 security guards to usher out Stephanie, with one of them having to sell like he was Flair taking a Steamboat chop. At some point in time, they should just go all out and put the title on Steph in a 3 minute squash with Reigns.



Kevin Kelly: "Mr. Austin, would you like to comment on Wade Keller's Take that endorsing the XFL hurts your anti-authority character?"

Steve Austin: "Oh shit, he actually said that? I thought the boys in the back were ribbing me!"

Kelly: "No, he really said that. Did they tell you the part about you sitting in the stands, looking all skeptical?"

Austin: "AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah... oh man that was too much."
Mr Shh
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Since: 9.1.02
From: Monmouth County, NJ

Since last post: 1286 days
Last activity: 1285 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
In my fantasy world, Steph was meant to break free from the security guards as they were ushering her away, but they went into business for themselves.



You askew my mirror. I askew yours.

Behold, my plunger.

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The Goon
Banger
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Since last post: 853 days
Last activity: 831 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.13
I'm happy they did a Chyna tribute, but it seemed a little lackluster to have short videos but more focus on the tweets sent out by current and former WWE people.

I know there's a lot of reasons why, but it just struck me as, "Sigh, I guess we have to do SOMETHING."
Dr Unlikely
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2162 days
Last activity: 1769 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.61
Anderson and Gallows' new theme starts off with "Hey man, we came to conquer and divide!" and for a few seconds, I was incredibly excited at the possibility that their theme was going to give away their entire secret plan.

Lyrics to "Omen In The Sky (Theme From Anderson And Gallows)" (original draft)
Heeeeey man
We came to conquer and divide
We know Aaaaaaa J
But we're really on Roman's side!
*

I was floored that they used time on Raw to air an actual, extended package providing full background for the Zayn/Owens feud. A genuinely useful segment aimed at getting over two characters and selling an angle and PPV match. I'm still shocked that this happened. Wow.

Is Titus O'Neil: World's Most Annoying Best Friend going to be his new on-air gimmick? I'm all for it if it is. Otherwise, I'm kinda confused by those segments.

Overall, I liked this one. Not nearly as good as the miracle show from two week's ago, but better than last week's well-intentioned but plodding tape delay deal. A go-home show that didn't make me want to see the matches less than I already did. Novel idea. That said, interested to see if the Roman/Del Rio main event sets a new record low third hour.


*Shooting to get the board to be at the top of search results for "Omen In The Sky"/ Anderson and Gallows / Bullet Club lyrics.
SKLOKAZOID
Bierwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1683 days
Last activity: 812 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.66
It's amazing what they've done to Dean Ambrose. Clearly a work of art. He still looks better than Reigns despite the inverse booking.
graves9
Sujuk








Since: 19.2.10
From: Brooklyn NY

Since last post: 1680 days
Last activity: 1440 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/showbuzzdailys-top-150-monday-cable-originals-network-finals-4-25-2016.html Ratings go deeper into the abyss as the first two hours are barely above three mil and the third hour is under three mil. It really is too bad because the show has been really good the last three weeks. I expect HHH back next week as if he's a draw.
DirtyMikeSeaver
Bockwurst








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 1582 days
Last activity: 1582 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
This makes sense as the casual viewer has zero connection to most of these acts. Most people know the 'big names' (Rock, Lesnar, UT, HHH etc..) and those guys haven't been on. As 'good' as the shows have been there's no draw for the casual fan. That's why sometimes, the RAW after WM sometimes skews this so much. Enzo Amore and Cass seem like the biggest things in the world, but put them in a crowd that might now be as 'smart' and they don't come off as big time. Same as AJ Styles and even Cesaro. I've read some reports online blaming the crowd for not reacting to the matches, but it's hard to blame them.



Kevin Kelly: "Mr. Austin, would you like to comment on Wade Keller's Take that endorsing the XFL hurts your anti-authority character?"

Steve Austin: "Oh shit, he actually said that? I thought the boys in the back were ribbing me!"

Kelly: "No, he really said that. Did they tell you the part about you sitting in the stands, looking all skeptical?"

Austin: "AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah... oh man that was too much."
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 937 days
Last activity: 318 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.43

    That's why sometimes, the RAW after WM sometimes skews this so much. Enzo Amore and Cass seem like the biggest things in the world, but put them in a crowd that might now be as 'smart' and they don't come off as big time


Enzo & Cass were one of the few acts who seemed to be over last night. AJ was consistently one of the most over guys on house shows until he spent too much time with Jericho.



thecubsfan.com - luchablog
Kevintripod
Knackwurst








Since: 11.5.03
From: Mount Pleasant, Pa.

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 3 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.07



The problem with the low ratings is that the WWE can put on all the great matches you want, but they don't mean shit without great storylines to back them up.

The hardcore wrestling fans just keep saying "We want good matches"...."Just give us good matches". And now they're getting that and they either don't understand why the ratings are still shit or they make up excuses for it.

The casual viewers watch/watched wrestling for the many great soap opera-like storylines and the great soap opera-like build-ups, not just to see good matches quickly put together and thrown out there each week.




BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 318 days
Last activity: 318 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.13
I thought this was a very good show, but I can't say I wasn't worried about the new roster taking the hit for the damage that was done as or before they got there. I'm really enjoying the new direction I just don't know if they have the patience to see it through. It's the company's own fault we are counting down the days until a John Cena return instead of watching new guys wrestling a blend of freshly made guys that John Cena helped put over.





    The problem with the low ratings is that the WWE can put on all the great matches you want, but they don't mean shit without great storylines to back them up.



I disagree. I think everything has had a nice steady build. They're not blatantly bonking you over the head here with the obvious point week after week so it's been a different type of storyline.

I'm actually looking forward to a WWE PPV Payback should be a good time.

Tenken347
Knackwurst








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 32 days
Last activity: 12 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver
    This makes sense as the casual viewer has zero connection to most of these acts. Most people know the 'big names' (Rock, Lesnar, UT, HHH etc..) and those guys haven't been on. As 'good' as the shows have been there's no draw for the casual fan. That's why sometimes, the RAW after WM sometimes skews this so much. Enzo Amore and Cass seem like the biggest things in the world, but put them in a crowd that might now be as 'smart' and they don't come off as big time. Same as AJ Styles and even Cesaro. I've read some reports online blaming the crowd for not reacting to the matches, but it's hard to blame them.


I think this is exactly right, but I also think WWE needs the courage to stay the course. The crowd's not going to get all of these guys right away, they need some time to make connections. Even Cesaro, who's been around for a while and who really has had a pretty good presence in the live arenas (seriously, go back and check some of the reactions he was getting before he got hurt) has never been seen as a top guy. Ratings are going to drop off, but honestly, it's not like they could count on Cena & Co. forever. They need to rebuild the brand with the new guys, and thanks to their short-sightedness, now they have to do it all at once. I like the new direction, but it's not going to catch fire right out of the gate. They need time for everything to gel, and hopefully for the audience to come back. I can't say 100% that that's going to happen, but their plan of "let's just run pretty much the same show every week with Cena on top," was not a viable long-term strategy either, so for now I say just keep doing a new thing. If things are still in the toilet in, say, three months, then try another new thing, and another, until you find the winning formula. But they can't just keep doing what they've been doing.
InVerse
Boudin blanc








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 2037 days
Last activity: 2000 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.12
    Originally posted by Kevintripod
    The problem with the low ratings is that the WWE can put on all the great matches you want, but they don't mean shit without great storylines to back them up.

    The hardcore wrestling fans just keep saying "We want good matches"...."Just give us good matches". And now they're getting that and they either don't understand why the ratings are still shit or they make up excuses for it.

    The casual viewers watch/watched wrestling for the many great soap opera-like storylines and the great soap opera-like build-ups, not just to see good matches quickly put together and thrown out there each week.


I've been meaning to rewatch Max Landis' Wrestling Isn't Wrestling. This looks like a good excuse to link it here as well, for those that missed it the first go around.

JimBob Skeeter
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: MN

Since last post: 1669 days
Last activity: 1628 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.87
    Originally posted by Tenken347
    If things are still in the toilet in, say, three months, then try another new thing, and another, until you find the winning formula.


See: shit, thrown on wall, what sticks. Because that has worked so well for them so far.

(No, I am not knocking you, Tenken. I'm knocking all the crap they have thrown at us that they thought WOULD stick.)
Dr Unlikely
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2162 days
Last activity: 1769 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.61
To agree with pretty much everybody, it's not just "good matches" (in quotes simply because that's a difficult thing to define) or even good matches + compelling storylines, it's a combination of the matches, stories to bolster them and compelling characters that makes the product work. A lack of some/all of those over the last year made the shows nearly impossible to watch (and, in my opinion, just about impossible to talk about with even a little interest). Tie that to a distinct inability or unwillingness to provide any reason for viewers to think the guys who aren't already top guys should be considered top guys and you get a product not worth watching and not capable of generating a buzz once it does become watchable again (which it kinda sorta has since WrestleMania 32 died and went away forever).

Even with all the injuries, the active, main roster right now is stacked with both men and women capable of putting on great weekly televised wrestling (I started to list them all, but realized that if I included talented people who had been booked poorly and newcomers like the Vaudevillains/Crews/Corbin who certainly have the potential, I was basically going to list the entire active, healthy roster but, like, Viktor, Rowan and Strowman). The bulk of them and virtually all of the workers now forced to be at the top have proven themselves capable of great matches with the right opponents, so great matches isn't the issue.

Character has been an issue for most of the NXT call-ups who have bombed. They just throw them up and put them in the same set of matches as the last guy who died without any help (Corbin is even getting the same first feud as Breeze - attacking Dolph Ziggler for Reasons As Yet To Be Determined). Neville very nearly got over on the strength of his matches alone, which is maybe what they're hoping for in Bigger Cooler-Looking Neville (Apollo Crews), but it's still weird that they moved Crews up before really getting a hang on who we are meant to think he is. That said, I think just about all the people they've brought in and up (including Corbin) have the goods to carve out a character and prove they are interesting if they're given even a little bit of time and attention (see Owens and Zayn, who are over through sheer force of will and talent, and see Xavier Woods, who seemed like the most future endeavor-able guy in the entire company until they actually let him display his personality and charisma and then he suddenly developed into the engine behind their top merchandise sellers. Basically, stop murdering guys like Wade Barrett dead when they manage to get themselves over in spite of your incompetence and instead take advantage of that and sell shitloads of Bad News Barrett t-shirts and foam gavels, you insane, spiteful morons.)

Storylines is a huge issue. New Day is arguably the most over/compelling act, but they basically never get any actual storylines or feuds beyond the "lose four matches in a row and win the blow-off" death spiral all the title holders get. Ambrose could (should!) be The Not A Good Guy, Not A Bad Guy But The Guy Guy, but he keeps getting put in feuds he loses as an afterthought and told to go out and shrug about having lost. Rusev, who has proven he can work serious or comedy feuds, has no direction at all. Those three alone are inexcusable.

They do seem to be fixing this, though. The new Styles/Roman/Possible Mystery Third String-puller angle is better than anything they've done in the last year that high up on the card. It's weird and inexcusable that we're only just now getting packages displaying the backstory they already did the work for re: Zayn/Owens, something that should have been happening between the Rumble and WrestleMania. But! We're getting them! This is good!

So, yeah, combine that with a bench that includes Brock Lesnar, Samoa Joe, Finn Balor, Bayley, Gable, Jordan, Asuka and the single most charismatic wrestler in the entire world and you should, by all measures, be in pretty great shape to turn things around after enduring, say, from now until Summerslam of lapsed casual fans.

Which is why I think the biggest crime, from a business standpoint, has been that inability/refusal to create any continuity between the Actual Stars and the "superstars". I would argue that the only people currently employed by the company with the pre-existing ability to have "made" any of these new guys you are now dependent upon is the shortest of shortlists: Cena, Undertaker, Brock Lesnar and (to a lesser and grudging extent), HHH. That's it. Since 2002, those have been the only people still employed who have been treated like true stars at the expense of everyone else currently and previously employed. Those four have the ability, because of 10+ years of us being told over and over again (literally by the announcers and those four themselves and figuratively in terms of presentation and win/loss) that only these guys matter and everyone else is there to prop them up.

Undertaker put over Brock (which was necessary because Brock, inexplicably, put over HHH), but then crushed Bray Wyatt only to kinda, sorta give the rub to...Brock again, and then, even more inexplicably, Shane McMahon.

Brock put over HHH, slightly repaid the favor to Undertaker, shined Roman up some and then destroyed Ambrose and then...just went away until they can pay him again without anyone getting the rub from him being off TV.

HHH beat Lesnar, put over Daniel Bryan (grudgingly! but good on him for that, but bad on him for then having Daniel Bryan wrestle Kane and get humiliated by the Authority until he ceased to exist), beat Sting (making Sting unusable as an Undertaker stand-in) and put over Roman, someone they knew wasn't going to benefit from it, and in the most boring way possible.

Cena put over Owens before getting it back twice-over and then went over pretty much everybody you'd currently be depending upon to take over the company (Wyatt, Rusev, Ambrose, most egregiously Seth Rollins, who was World Champion at the time), but I'd say is almost the worst example out of all of these because he's had two John Cena Is Dead! angles in the last year and nobody got the rub from them. How is that possible??

Consider again that you have Alberto Del Rio on the roster now collecting a huge paycheck as a guy who got fired and became a folk hero over it, went away and proved that he was capable of being the big deal pretty quick star they originally hired, and came back and was booked so shoddily that he is somehow an inescapable event horizon of black hole boredom.

Let's take you back to November, when Del Rio returned Cena did his first, worked "Cena On The Shelf" angle of the last year:

    Originally posted by Me, 11/2/15
    Been thinking more about the unexplained absence of Cena and ways the US Championship Open Challenge could have ended:

    A. Cena is beaten for the US title by an up-and-coming new talent. Cena admits the new champ was the better man, making that person a new star and setting them up for a marketable rematch in the future when Cena is either gunning for Flair's record or installed as the World Champion with the most reigns ever.

    B. Cena is beaten by a returning Alberto Del Rio and has to tap out to Del Rio's cross armbreaker. Cena is so shaken by being forced to give up that he takes a sabbatical to collect himself. Del Rio's cross armbreaker is immediately established as the #1 finisher in wrestling, if not the #1 submission move ever. Del Rio is positioned as both a major star and a potential draw for a highly-desired demographic.

    C. Cena is beaten by a returning Alberto Del Rio after refusing to submit to the cross armbreaker, resulting in a broken arm that puts Cena on the shelf, giving him a potentially exploitable weakness when he returns and providing vulnerability his character has needed for years. Del Rio's cross armbreaker is immediately established as the #1 finisher in wrestling and Del Rio arguably becomes the most dangerous man in the business, positioning him as both a major star and a potential draw for a highly-desired demographic and, arguably, a new challenger for Brock Lesnar.

    D. Cena is beaten by a returning Alberto Del Rio after refusing to submit to the cross armbreaker, resulting in a broken arm that puts Cena on the shelf, giving him a potentially exploitable weakness when he returns and providing vulnerability his character has needed for years. Del Rio, horrified at the carnage, vows not to use the cross armbreaker anymore and debuts a new finisher the next night, but is established as a major star and a potential draw for a highly-desired demographic and has the move that broke Cena in his back pocket.

    E. Cena is beaten by a returning Alberto Del Rio after Del Rio destroys him with his new top rope double stomp finisher, which puts Cena on the shelf. The new finisher is immediately established as the #1 finisher in WWE and Del Rio is established as a major star and a potential draw for a highly-desired demographic.

    F. Cena beats all the new potential stars in the company, including defeated the World Champion - arguably the most important new star they have - cleanly multiple times, making the World Title secondary to the US Title. Cena loses a quick match to Del Rio vs. a transition move and disappears from TV without explanation, giving no one the rub from his absence, and since Cena has beaten all the new talent, none are positioned to be able to carry the show as a Cena-level star while he is off TV. Del Rio is positioned as a weird, confusing, bigot teamed up with a racist heel about to feud with a different racist heel who hasn't even been on TV in months over which competing brand of xenophobia is sufficiently racist enough, causing the crowd to not know how to react and killing Del Rio's momentum by week two of his return. Del Rio is also scripted to declare his desire for the World Title, moving the US Title back below the World Title in importance.

    Lotta options there. Be interesting to see how the one they chose plays out!
F, by the way. It was F. So that was how they handled a kayfabe Cena injury. Then, unfortunately, Cena got legit injured pretty terribly when he came back and was gone even longer. Imagine how much better shape they'd be in right now if, say, Del Rio had gotten credit for the worked absence, and then when Cena came back, had been given credit (through a carefully-filmed pre-tape sequence if need be) for immediately putting the returning Cena back on the shelf? That would be crazy heat (and, given Cena's relationship with the fans, either heel or face heat) for a guy and a compelling return angle for Cena just a few weeks from now. Continuity between a Real Star and someone else that would be incredibly useful right now while you're forced to basically eat shit in the ratings because you forgot to actually book any of the people currently willing or able to be on TV in any ways. Add on to that: who put Orton out? Why is Undertaker off TV in storyline? Why is Brock off TV in storyline (like, maybe book a match with Ambrose where, even in a loss, Ambrose wrecked Brock so badly that Brock has to go on the shelf? Maybe? Maybe that's a good idea for a guy who could be The The Guy Guy you want so badly?)

So, yeah, they currently have no choice but to stick with this direction, but the lesson they need to learn so desperately is to use the assets they have in way that actually helps them when they have them. A rising tide lifts all boats, but only if you don't go around drilling holes in the nice new boats you have after using the few sturdy old ships in the harbor to repeatedly ram into the handful of boats that don't sink right away.

Payback looks good, though!
Spiraling_Shape
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: PA

Since last post: 24 days
Last activity: 2 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.36
    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    Imagine how much better shape they'd be in right now if, say, Del Rio had gotten credit for the worked absence, and then when Cena came back, had been given credit (through a carefully-filmed pre-tape sequence if need be) for immediately putting the returning Cena back on the shelf? That would be crazy heat (and, given Cena's relationship with the fans, either heel or face heat) for a guy and a compelling return angle for Cena just a few weeks from now. Continuity between a Real Star and someone else that would be incredibly useful right now while you're forced to basically eat shit in the ratings because you forgot to actually book any of the people currently willing or able to be on TV in any ways.



If anyone should know about this sort of angle, it's John Cena.



(edited by Spiraling_Shape on 27.4.16 1023)
Tenken347
Knackwurst








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 32 days
Last activity: 12 hours
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by JimBob Skeeter
      Originally posted by Tenken347
      If things are still in the toilet in, say, three months, then try another new thing, and another, until you find the winning formula.


    See: shit, thrown on wall, what sticks. Because that has worked so well for them so far.

    (No, I am not knocking you, Tenken. I'm knocking all the crap they have thrown at us that they thought WOULD stick.)


No, no, I get it. But don't forget: throwing shit at the wall was how we got the Attitude Era. And it helps to remember that not everything was golden back then, either. For all their big hits at that time, there were just as many misses. Like, literally the first 7 or so years of Mark Henry's career.
J. Kyle
Banger








Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

Since last post: 1551 days
Last activity: 1331 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
Nous ne nous pouvons pas sortir.
    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    I would argue that the only people currently employed by the company with the pre-existing ability to have "made" any of these new guys you are now dependent upon is the shortest of shortlists: Cena, Undertaker, Brock Lesnar and (to a lesser and grudging extent), HHH. That's it. Since 2002, those have been the only people still employed who have been treated like true stars at the expense of everyone else currently and previously employed. Those four have the ability, because of 10+ years of us being told over and over again (literally by the announcers and those four themselves and figuratively in terms of presentation and win/loss) that only these guys matter and everyone else is there to prop them up.
I agree with what you said, but Orton belongs in that group having gone approximately 40,000-3 against people who aren't John Cena or Taker at Mania.

And I know we're all anticipating him returning and finishing what he started in burying Kevin Owens on the mic with ad libbed fat jokes and never, ever, ever, everever, eating a pin from him. Maybe a tag match. But probably not.




This is a picture of Dean Ambrose in a Cobra Kai Gi.
OndaGrande
Boudin rouge








Since: 1.5.03
From: California, Home of THE LAKERS!

Since last post: 2653 days
Last activity: 2218 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.09

That's the tough boat the tv promotions face.....the balance between pleasing the "core" wrestling fans ( who realistically only make up 10-25% of the overall audience ) and appealing to "casual fans", i.e. viewers who could be watching the Kardashians, "The Real World", "CSI", random sitcoms, soap operas or Vin Diesel & Jason Statham movies on NetFlix. And the truth is...wrestling ( especially on television ) appeals to a large group of people who are...there's no easy or politically correct way to say it....extremely stupid or legitimately mentally challenged. So it HAS to appear "dumb" to anyone with an IQ over 88 or fans only interested in witnessing pure athleticism at it's finest. :-/



LEARN IT, KNOW IT, LIVE IT!
Mr Shh
Lap cheong








Since: 9.1.02
From: Monmouth County, NJ

Since last post: 1286 days
Last activity: 1285 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
Ugh. Based on Vince mentioning 1,196 episodes of RAW last night during Payback, I checked to see if we were in sync. I was the one who screwed up the episode numbering back in January. My bad.



You askew my mirror. I askew yours.

Behold, my plunger.

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From what I hear, Hogan and Savage have a weird relationship, but it stems from Savage thinking Hogan and his wife influenced Elizabeth to leave Savage. This was around WM9 time.
- Screeching Weasel, The return of Hulk Hogan (2004)
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