I had the thought that hey, New Day and Sasha Banks are both done in the first hour... let me find something else to do with my other two hours. I was dumb and didn't go.
I'm not shocked Nikki won. I won't be shocked if she wins Sunday and wins for another few months just to spite the Internet fans. I do wish they would find something new besides the Bella switch. Oh look, Brie is pulling tissue out of her top again, even though she has different hair than Brie. They need to just go all out and have Alicia be the one who is swapped in for the switch, since referees are blind. Also, where is that time keeper that rings the bell when he sees something the referee doesn't? Oh, that was just for one match? Oh.
Poor Charlotte is bound to get eclipsed by Sasha. Sasha seems to be the one in the "new gang" that truly seems to be over, not to mention that winning streak that hasn't been acknowledged by anyone but her on Twitter yet (Sasha Taker, she calls herself). Sasha vs Paige was fun. I worry for Sasha's neck now that I've seen her holding it after a match twice. The Stephanie McMahon Presents The Divas Revolution needs more of the Sasha/Paige stuff, where the trios are starting to break down into actual feuds beyond "hey, you're not on my team."
New Day are awesome. Cut and paste that weekly. Cool bosses HHH & Steph would work if they didn't switch from good to bad in every segment.
Hyping Sting's first Raw match ever is something they really should have started doing about a week ago. To be fair, Vince probably pulled it out of his butt about 5:30 p.m.
Cena wins! He always does! Mr. Money in the Bank is a joke, as always! Cena vs Sheamus was a slight step up from Sheamus vs Orton in the line of matches I never want to see again.
I weirdly enjoyed Ryback/Owens (AFTER the Elvis thing that should have never happened). It actually made me care more about Ryback than I have in a while.
My favorite part.... Xavier distracts Darren with his Trombone then is surprised. "What happened???? What happened to you? What happened, Darren??" Then after they won, dancing on the announce table. So good.
Originally posted by lotjxWhy do you even give a shit about Total Diva when it will be canceled in two years anyway? Just fucking why?!!
So, a five year run? That seems like a runaway smash hit.
My biggest problem with the Nikki match was that they just did that identical mindblowingly creative finish two months ago as the very climax to the "oh noooo Paige needs help" buildup. My second-biggest problem is that Paige tapped clean and is about to turn so hopefully she'll wait until after Charlotte wins the title to attack her rather than cost her the title match and double down on the legendary title reign that toppled not only AJ from the history books but the equally unforgettable record set by Maryse lo those many six years ago. Paige turning on the people she recruited to help her fight the Bellas because they helped her fight the Bellas is some weird cascading nesting doll shit within last year's Bella/Stephanie feud where Brie joined Nikki to aid her in her feud against herself.
Triple H and Stephanie dancing with the geniuses of New Day was pathetic vampirism by The NXT Man and Connor's Nicest Mom. The Authority should give themselves the Forrest Gump treatment by CGIomg themselves into all the century's most beloved cult acts, like Mattitude Facts, Christian's anti-Cena raps, Miz and Morrison's Dirt Sheet, Honk-a-meter era Santino Marella, Z! True Long Island Story, Damien Mizdow, Eugene (oh right, already did that one), etc.
Originally posted by JimBob SkeeterI just loved that they let BOTH diva's matches focus on the heel working on the face's arm injury. BECAUSE THEY ARE SO VERSATILE.
Really Nikki's moves in that match just looked like she was going through the motions of Sasha's moves from her Takeover match against Becky.
Originally posted by CruelAngel777we are arguing more about Nikki Bella's title reign than anything else that happened on the show. If they wanted to get attention on The Diva's title and get some sort of controversial reaction or even some buzz for the Diva's Revolution with the Bella's playing dictator...
Mission Accomplished.
No. No. No. No. No. No. Do not give them a pass and write off their laziness and lack of direction for good work and intentional progression. That's giving credit where none is due and is not fair to us as (reasonably) intelligent viewers. This ain't reddit; the people who participate here have brains. I expect better of you, and us. She is, fittingly, the female Cena in almost every aspect other than the massive popularity.
Originally posted by CruelAngel777we are arguing more about Nikki Bella's title reign than anything else that happened on the show. If they wanted to get attention on The Diva's title and get some sort of controversial reaction or even some buzz for the Diva's Revolution with the Bella's playing dictator...
Mission Accomplished.
No. No. No. No. No. No. Do not give them a pass and write off their laziness and lack of direction for good work and intentional progression. That's giving credit where none is due and is not fair to us as (reasonably) intelligent viewers. This ain't reddit; the people who participate here have brains. I expect better of you, and us. She is, fittingly, the female Cena in almost every aspect other than the massive popularity.
But we are not only discussing it on this forum it's a hot topic. Vince and creative may be telling this story with the intricacy of a partially blind person trying to open a locked door with a bazooka, but Nikki's breaking AJ's record got a reaction last night in comparison to most of the main show Diva Revolution stuff of the past week which wasn't swaying fans at all.
Now we go from apathy to frustration and interest. I'm not saying the angle with the Divas is particularly good, but for the first time in weeks we are invested in what happens with the Diva's title and who holds it.
I also think fans are more invested in Nikki beating AJ's record than AJ is. She probably thinks it's nice that she isn't persona non grata like her husband, but she's moved on.
Cole: "Yeah, thanks to Kane. You should buy Kane a Rolex watch for what he did for you."
Rollins: "Oh don't be silly, Kane doesn't wear watches."
Originally posted by CruelAngel777we are arguing more about Nikki Bella's title reign than anything else that happened on the show. If they wanted to get attention on The Diva's title and get some sort of controversial reaction or even some buzz for the Diva's Revolution with the Bella's playing dictator...
Mission Accomplished.
No. No. No. No. No. No. Do not give them a pass and write off their laziness and lack of direction for good work and intentional progression. That's giving credit where none is due and is not fair to us as (reasonably) intelligent viewers. This ain't reddit; the people who participate here have brains. I expect better of you, and us. She is, fittingly, the female Cena in almost every aspect other than the massive popularity.
But we are not only discussing it on this forum it's a hot topic. Vince and creative may be telling this story with the intricacy of a partially blind person trying to open a locked door with a bazooka, but Nikki's breaking AJ's record got a reaction last night in comparison to most of the main show Diva Revolution stuff of the past week which wasn't swaying fans at all.
Now we go from apathy to frustration and interest. I'm not saying the angle with the Divas is particularly good, but for the first time in weeks we are invested in what happens with the Diva's title and who holds it.
I also think fans are more invested in Nikki beating AJ's record than AJ is. She probably thinks it's nice that she isn't persona non grata like her husband, but she's moved on.
With due respect to your points, I can't help but think that
Now we go from apathy to frustration and interest
is the company's biggest problem and has been since, say, 2003. And that's nuts, right? How can a company this big think "apathy" as the default is OK, and "frustration" as the inciting incident is at all sustainable as a business model? HHH and his famous Reign of Terror pounded the fans and the company and mainstream wrestling into submission, creating that baseline of apathy as the default more than a decade ago. The rise of Cena and Batista seems to be the last time the company actually responded to that intentionally and successfully. But then they doubled-down on Cena and took the 3-6 years of HHH-based apathy that ended the boom period was nice, but let's see what nineyears of Cena-based apathy looks like on the ol' bottom line. That much apathy did turn into frustration and at least three times (Summer of Punk, The Daniel Bryan Incident, The 2015 Royal Rumble Which Basically Now Never Happened) they were on the verge of figuring out how to make
1. Apathy 2. Frustration 3. ??? 4. Profit
into a valid business model, except time and again they dropped the ball, and the cycle is just apathy-frustration-apathy.
What I take a way from that, and why I even bring this up over the Nikki title reign thing, is that their actions have proven that they still have absolutely no idea why fans are frustrated. No one in charge knows why fans rejected Cena. No one in charge knew why fans got behind Punk. No one in charge knew why fans got behind Bryan. No one in charge knows why fans rebelled against Reigns. (And certainly, no one in charge is willing to even entertain the idea that HHH may not have been best for business back in the day).
And as it turns out, no one in charge got why people were ignoring the women, and no one in charge gets why people don't like the Bellas, and no one in charge even did the simple math until it was thrown in their faces that the Bellatron ended a week before the blow-off match, which suggests that they've stumbled backwards yet again into another opportunity that they are in no position to capitalize on.
What the whole company needs - men and women - is a genuine, closed doors meeting where they hash out why the only emotion they've been able to draw out of people en masse for a decade now is "Hey, we hate this!" and until they do that, they're never going to get any of these angles right.
(Sorry if this feels like piling on or unrelated blather. Much like AJ, I don't really care about the booking of the women's title, but your "apathy to frustration (to) interest" phrase really caught my attention as a fascinating, succinct summation of what's been rotting the company from the inside out for so long.)
I guess I can count myself as someone who was beaten down into apathy. At one time, I was a bit more outspoken and was one of the "WWF lemmings". Now I'm one of the old, bitter, jaded, and cynical and prefer to stick to my local indie promotions for my consistent fix.
I haven't been to a WWE live event in several years and I'm still not a Network subscriber, though I find other means to watch NXT(which I do enjoy). In the meantime, there are plenty of other options available to wrestling fans who are willing to seek them out. Wrestling has never been more accessible than it is today...there's a little something for every type of fan and there's no longer any reason to "settle" for what's on television. Whether it's Ring Of Honor, TNA(for a few more weeks, anyway), Lucha Underground(if they return), or whatever indie suits your fancy...it's out there.
I think the problem is that some of us do care about the divas belt, and have before this week. We're just in Bella fatigue. Much like its big brother disease Cena fatigue, Bella fatigue sets in after you feel like you've been watching the same matches for month.
And the problem is that they know this and don't care. Gotta beat that AJ record to stick it to CM Punk! Gotta keep the almighty Bellas perpetually strong! Gotta have the Stephanie McMahon Presents The Divas Revolution because "did you see those women in sports??", but we have to dumb it down to teams in neverending meaningless tag matches and rematches (I love Sasha vs Paige, and it was killer Monday, but maybe let's take a few weeks before doing the match again).
The only diva getting crowd chants is Sasha. When she isn't in the match, they chant for Sasha. Sasha Taker is on a winning streak which nobody is acknowledging. Why is she not in this title picture at all? Why is she not arguing this on TV?
It's just frustrating. It's another case of WWE feeding the fans the way they want us to be fed, not the way we want it. Part of me hopes we'll get past this Bella reign Sunday and move on, but part of me thinks we have another few months of it just to spite the fans. The other part of me realizes that if she loses, we get months of her trying to regain it instead of letting the next in line get a shot.
It's just too much Bella.
Unrelated, continuing our New Day love, check out their "Table for 3" on the Network. Fascinating and hilarious, as you would expect.
To me, the funniest part about everyone getting SO ANGRY about Nikki breaking A.J.'s record, is that Nikki actually had more title defenses in that 295-day stretch. (Despite not defending the belt between July 12 and Monday.)
Originally posted by Dr UnlikelyWhat I take a way from that, and why I even bring this up over the Nikki title reign thing, is that their actions have proven that they still have absolutely no idea why fans are frustrated. No one in charge knows why fans rejected Cena. No one in charge knew why fans got behind Punk. No one in charge knew why fans got behind Bryan. No one in charge knows why fans rebelled against Reigns. (And certainly, no one in charge is willing to even entertain the idea that HHH may not have been best for business back in the day).
A big part of it stems from the "Get WWE over, not the wrestler" mentality. Wade Keller had a great rant (wadekeller.com) about how on Monday, we're supposed to think of the Bellas as heels (I guess) but then we also see a video package that's about Nikki Bella The Real Person and how we're supposed to feel sympathy. And then, of course, there's all the crap with Stephanie/HHH.
The whole goal here seems to be about what a great company WWE is and how it has its stars that they want you to care about, but then they try to have it both ways by flaunting their philanthropic stuff. The CM Punk thing had a lot to do with how they didn't feel like he was the guy they wanted to represent the company, even though helping to nurture Punk's popularity would have helped the company in a lot of ways by creating a big star.
It's pretty dumb.
EDIT: Also, I know someone who worked for WWE, and basically his summation was that everybody on the creative staff "gets it," but it doesn't matter because Vince ruins it when he gets the final pass. Ratings, buyrates, etc. don't really matter when it's just one dude's opinion.
I'm sure it's some weird form of karma that I'm now tiring of getting shouted down by the same "lemmings" who I once identified with. Different strokes and all that.
So, we go with the ECW Justin Credible push of the Bellas to the Eric Bischoff Book, literally a book called Controversy Creates Cash with the Bellas. Here is the thing, both those strategies lead to dead wrestling companies. Anyone else see a pattern especially when no one knows how many paying customers the Network has and NXT being told to fuck off for getting the gates at SummerSlam.
Originally posted by CruelAngel777we are arguing more about Nikki Bella's title reign than anything else that happened on the show. If they wanted to get attention on The Diva's title and get some sort of controversial reaction or even some buzz for the Diva's Revolution with the Bella's playing dictator...
Mission Accomplished.
No. No. No. No. No. No. Do not give them a pass and write off their laziness and lack of direction for good work and intentional progression. That's giving credit where none is due and is not fair to us as (reasonably) intelligent viewers. This ain't reddit; the people who participate here have brains. I expect better of you, and us. She is, fittingly, the female Cena in almost every aspect other than the massive popularity.
But we are not only discussing it on this forum it's a hot topic. Vince and creative may be telling this story with the intricacy of a partially blind person trying to open a locked door with a bazooka, but Nikki's breaking AJ's record got a reaction last night in comparison to most of the main show Diva Revolution stuff of the past week which wasn't swaying fans at all.
Now we go from apathy to frustration and interest. I'm not saying the angle with the Divas is particularly good, but for the first time in weeks we are invested in what happens with the Diva's title and who holds it.
I also think fans are more invested in Nikki beating AJ's record than AJ is. She probably thinks it's nice that she isn't persona non grata like her husband, but she's moved on.
With due respect to your points, I can't help but think that
Now we go from apathy to frustration and interest
is the company's biggest problem and has been since, say, 2003. And that's nuts, right? How can a company this big think "apathy" as the default is OK, and "frustration" as the inciting incident is at all sustainable as a business model? HHH and his famous Reign of Terror pounded the fans and the company and mainstream wrestling into submission, creating that baseline of apathy as the default more than a decade ago. The rise of Cena and Batista seems to be the last time the company actually responded to that intentionally and successfully. But then they doubled-down on Cena and took the 3-6 years of HHH-based apathy that ended the boom period was nice, but let's see what nineyears of Cena-based apathy looks like on the ol' bottom line. That much apathy did turn into frustration and at least three times (Summer of Punk, The Daniel Bryan Incident, The 2015 Royal Rumble Which Basically Now Never Happened) they were on the verge of figuring out how to make
1. Apathy 2. Frustration 3. ??? 4. Profit
into a valid business model, except time and again they dropped the ball, and the cycle is just apathy-frustration-apathy.
What I take a way from that, and why I even bring this up over the Nikki title reign thing, is that their actions have proven that they still have absolutely no idea why fans are frustrated. No one in charge knows why fans rejected Cena. No one in charge knew why fans got behind Punk. No one in charge knew why fans got behind Bryan. No one in charge knows why fans rebelled against Reigns. (And certainly, no one in charge is willing to even entertain the idea that HHH may not have been best for business back in the day).
And as it turns out, no one in charge got why people were ignoring the women, and no one in charge gets why people don't like the Bellas, and no one in charge even did the simple math until it was thrown in their faces that the Bellatron ended a week before the blow-off match, which suggests that they've stumbled backwards yet again into another opportunity that they are in no position to capitalize on.
What the whole company needs - men and women - is a genuine, closed doors meeting where they hash out why the only emotion they've been able to draw out of people en masse for a decade now is "Hey, we hate this!" and until they do that, they're never going to get any of these angles right.
(Sorry if this feels like piling on or unrelated blather. Much like AJ, I don't really care about the booking of the women's title, but your "apathy to frustration (to) interest" phrase really caught my attention as a fascinating, succinct summation of what's been rotting the company from the inside out for so long.)
I think a big part of this is just the way the show is written in general. It's basically written like a sit-com: You introduce a scenario (or several, depending on how many different segments you're working with on RAW), the actors roll through it, and at the end of three hours, everything is back to the exact same place it was at the beginning of the show. The problem here is that RAW isn't a sit-com. If anything, RAW is a long-form drama series, which means that you can't have episodes that just maintain status quo. You need episodes that kick the story forward in a meaningful way, so that when you get to your climax points it feels like the viewers have been taken on a ride. That RAW almost never actually does this is why the show is so stagnant. You even mentioned a couple of weeks ago (in a Lucha Underground thread, I think) that RAW is a show that is actually produced in a completely different city every week, but every show looks and feels exactly the same. "Stagnant" really barely begins to describe the rut this show is stuck in. And the worst, worst part of all of this is that there's absolutely no excuse for it. New Day is living proof. This company is stacked from basement to rafters with the most talented people in this industry, and any one of them is an inspired moment and some TV time away from being the hottest act in the company. RAW shouldn't ever be boring, but here we are, week after week.
I think a big part of this is just the way the show is written in general. It's basically written like a sit-com: You introduce a scenario (or several, depending on how many different segments you're working with on RAW), the actors roll through it, and at the end of three hours, everything is back to the exact same place it was at the beginning of the show. The problem here is that RAW isn't a sit-com. If anything, RAW is a long-form drama series, which means that you can't have episodes that just maintain status quo. You need episodes that kick the story forward in a meaningful way, so that when you get to your climax points it feels like the viewers have been taken on a ride. That RAW almost never actually does this is why the show is so stagnant. You even mentioned a couple of weeks ago (in a Lucha Underground thread, I think) that RAW is a show that is actually produced in a completely different city every week, but every show looks and feels exactly the same. "Stagnant" really barely begins to describe the rut this show is stuck in. And the worst, worst part of all of this is that there's absolutely no excuse for it. New Day is living proof. This company is stacked from basement to rafters with the most talented people in this industry, and any one of them is an inspired moment and some TV time away from being the hottest act in the company. RAW shouldn't ever be boring, but here we are, week after week.
Exactly! I'm a creature of habit and watch/semi-watch/YouTube the shows, but the show has gotten so stagnant that if it were in syndication, episodes could be shown out of order and not much would be lost in translation.
It's the same show every week. Authority opens! Seth Rollins says stuff! Meaningless divas tag match! Bella Twins! Cena overcomes the odds! Sheamus vs Randy Orton! Wyatts say creepy stuff! Ambrose & Reigns are wacky buddies! JBL holds up signs! Dolph, Rusev, Summer, and Lana are up to something! How will Seth Rollins get past this challenge?
As said before, there is no excuse. The roster has a ton of talent. New Day are gold. Sasha will be the biggest diva they've had the moment they let her roll with it. Cena against fresh opponents was fun. There are plenty of tag teams that can put on exciting matches. There are a lot of guys who could put on entertaining midcard matches. There are guys like Cesaro ready to put on main event spectacles. There are several on the NXT roster that could come up any day.
Why can't the writers do something with all of this talent? Why are they so scared to try something different? Ratings are down, so obviously these same things we are seeing weekly aren't working. Throw some new stuff against the wall and see what works. See how New Day have taken off since you let them be themselves? Maybe try some more of that.
Originally posted by lotjxSo, we go with the ECW Justin Credible push of the Bellas to the Eric Bischoff Book, literally a book called Controversy Creates Cash with the Bellas. Here is the thing, both those strategies lead to dead wrestling companies. Anyone else see a pattern especially when no one knows how many paying customers the Network has and NXT being told to fuck off for getting the gates at SummerSlam.
The booking of the Diva's Title and Nikki Bella is going to lead to the death of WWE?
Thread ahead: Night of Champions Prediction Thread Next thread: Virgil ranks the Top 10 matches of all time. Previous thread: Raw 9/14/15: A Historically Bad Night
I thought the first two matches were great while the championship matches were decent enough but felt like they knew they were both just filler matches so there was no point in going all out.
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