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The W - Pro Wrestling - WWE Raw 12/15/14 (Page 2)
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InVerse
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Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 2046 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.37
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
    You must live in a pretty milquetoast place if the way they acted was "street" in your eyes.


I used to live in the Five Points neighborhood of Denver back before it was gentrified. There's a lot more to street culture than being violent thugs.
JimBob Skeeter
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MN

Since last post: 1678 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.30
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
      Originally posted by InVerse
      The New Day interview before the match really seemed to me like they were being forced to act "street". Now, I don't know Big E's background, but Kofi Kingston's parents are both academics and Xavier Woods has 2 bachelor's degrees, a master's degree, and is in the process of getting his PhD. They're decidedly not street. (Big E has a bachelor's degree as well. Google informs me that he won the Florida state wrestling championships when he was 16, but then transferred schools to play football instead and gave up wrestling. Sounds like he was academically sound, though, so his pre-med degree is probably legit.(Not to insinuate that you can't be street and get a college degree. (Nor am I using "street" as a euphemism for black. There are plenty of white hood rats.)))





I don't know if I would call it "Street", per se, but I DID get annoyed with Kofi continually saying "yaknowwhatimean?"

Also, is booking everyone to mention E's overfuntioning sweatglands going to help him get that brass ring? I don't think so.

LOVED the bunny tombstone, tho.

Seriously, Ryback just stood there while Rusev backed slowly away? C'mon, Big Guy!

Oh, and Show no-sold the Superman punch? Why wasn't THAT played up as a big thing? Also, the whole Reigns re-holstering his wrist is lame. I did hear the big pops he got last night but how long until the "Cena Sux!" chanters start chanting "Die, Roman, Die!"
Dr Unlikely
Liverwurst








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2171 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.59
There is zero reason to waste any time or energy on John Cena The Man or whatever political machinations he may or may not employ.

The only things the company needs to consider are:
1) Anecdotally, very few people seem happy with the current product and roughly half your live audience has rejected the top guy ,as he is presented, since about 2006.

2) Live audiences in several cities around the country outright rebelled at the booking plans - The Stories You Tell - this time last year. Your instincts were so impossibly wrong that your customers were forced to literally scream "NO!" at you over and over and over until you changed.

3) The way you have chosen to present your top guy for the last decade and have handled all other talent in your employ as a result has meant that there are apparently no more than 750,000 people in the (broadband-ready) world who think your product is good enough to be worth $10 a month.

So, if you decide to keep presenting that guy in that manner, or if you take a new guy - any new guy - and present him in that exact same manner, is your 750,000 person target audience of people who apparently don't hate your product, and the merchandise they buy, enough to offset the likely reality that nobody else is coming into the tent as long as you stay the course?

(Note: We should, though, waste plenty of time and energy on whether or not there's a secret, amazingly ineffectual mutiny happening among the main roster with John Cena sent in as the union buster, because that is way more compelling than what gets on TV. I vote that this is just a story they're putting out there to work us, because that's the kind of stuff they do and also I assume everything is just a story they're putting out there to work us or each other because they are all bored and weird.)
CruelAngel777
Sujuk








Since: 7.4.02

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.99
You guys are confusing me with New Day coming off as more "street" or "urban" or whatever PC terms we are trying to use to describe the group as a whole. Are you guys just trying to say they are coming off as young blacks? It's better to say that than confuse them with being street. I think of "street" I think of New Jack or TNA Version Ron Killings.

The whole gimmick is kinda of new age gospel influenced. Something my grandma would see some teens at her local church do and think "I wish more kids acted like this", when the reality is black kids that act like New Day are in the minority (no pun intended). I hate the gimmick personally because it's the happy singing smiling rapping dancing babyface gimmick I loathed all my life as a wrestling fan. I doesn't work ever (Flash Funk, KoKo B. Ware, WWE R-Truth, Men of Men on a Mission), because the gimmick is Vince's minstrel show and every fan no matter what his racial background can smell it.

It is a shame because I really like Kofi, Big E, and Woods. The gimmick started out with it being teased as a heel group, and it could of been an updated version of NOD (which was a group that had an edge and a sympathetic viewpoint). The rumor that they allegedly shifted the group into generic faces to avoid controversy during the Ferguson riots shows that this company is not only too PC and unwilling to handle controversy on social commentary anymore, but they really don't understand their black audience that well either.



Cole: "Yeah, thanks to Kane. You should buy Kane a Rolex watch for what he did for you."
Rollins: "Oh don't be silly, Kane doesn't wear watches."
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
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Since: 12.12.01

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.05
My favorite part of this show besides the main event was Fandango pronouncing Slammy as "Slommy." That and Tyson Kidd.

Poor The New Day. I had been told that together they could accomplish anything.

I could see those "NXT" chants catching on as a thing. I think the real ways to go are the pragmatic "Two-Hour Raw" or the spiteful "Network Sucks."

Roman Reigns being given the "interrupt him on word 2 so he doesn't have to speak" highspot bodes real well.

How many times has a babyface been booked against Heyman for a match only for Lesnar to shockingly show up? Didn't it just happen with Cena a couple months ago? Heyman doesn't even bother to go kicking and screaming anymore.

Announcers putting over Dolph Ziggler strong is still surreal.

Kane turns babyface against The WWE Product.
JimBob Skeeter
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: MN

Since last post: 1678 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.30
Regarding The Asencion video: I haven't felt that way about a tag team since The Road Warriors came on the scene, and I'm not talking LOD. I'm talking mid-80's/AWA Road Warriors. They frightened me.
DJ FrostyFreeze
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

Since last post: 137 days
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
Read it and weep, fella


    Originally posted by CruelAngel777
    The rumor that they allegedly shifted the group into generic faces to avoid controversy during the Ferguson riots shows that this company is not only too PC and unwilling to handle controversy on social commentary anymore, but they really don't understand their black audience that well either.
If the rumor mentioned above is true, then WWE was smart to keep New Day from being associated with anything related to Ferguson.

WWE/Vince not understanding their Black audience? I agree 100%.

EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I hate all angles related to race, especially "We're being held back because we're [members of said race]" angles. I am also a fan of all 3 members of New Day and am sad they have become so generic.



(edited by DJ FrostyFreeze on 16.12.14 1404)




CLICK OR DIE

GodEatGod
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Since: 28.2.02

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
    Originally posted by lotjx


    I question a lot of the notion of great matches and hard work with Cena. As we learned, Make A Wish and promo stuff is done by a lot of the WWE guys. I think Ambrose, Ziggler and others work as hard or harder than him. Most of them had better matches this year too. The massive problem with WWE booking is Cena. The idea that Cena has no say in his booking after ten year is laughable. Even more laughable is him holding a meeting about anything.


So, you now not only question Cena being given credit for any of his matches being good, he's even being carried in his Make A Wish appearances? I get that you don't like the guy, but jesus. I honestly think that if John Cena being Mr. "Don't Give Up" genuinely makes even one dying kid feel better for ten minutes (or, hell, more than one), never fucking turn him. Do you really think Dean "My mother was a drunken whore" Ambrose gets nearly as many requests? That has nothing to do with Ambrose as a performer - that's his character and he's damn, damn good at it, maybe my favorite guy in WWE.

Seriously. The Cena Truther movement is getting out of hand. WWE or the Make A Wish foundations don't pick which Superstars do wishes - sick children do. Everyone actually involvede with this charity, with the WWE, even guys who don't like Cena, all agree about this part of him being genuine. But you doubt it because...well, really, I have no idea why. Because other guys do wishes? I mean, do you think WWE is, like, holding guys down from doing wishes? "Screw that dying kid who wants Ziggler, he'll take Cena and LIKE IT".



(edited by GodEatGod on 16.12.14 2002)


"Never piss off a hawk with a blowgun" - Conan O'Brien
MoeGates
Boudin blanc








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 23 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
The problem with Rollins is that they're booking him exactly like they would a heel champion. Except he's not a champion. Finding a way to always somehow still sneak out with the belt is great if you've got the belt, otherwise it just makes you look like a schmuck.

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    And I do like his character as he plays it: he's not a HHH-level master planner super-villain like he pretends to be, he's a guy who recognizes the advantage when it presents itself in the moment and happily takes it.


Yup. He's basically Edge, except

a) he doesn't anything close to Edge's character, humor or personality yet.
b) he also doesn't have Edge's shoot character. No matter how he was currently being booked Edge always had that ability (like Foley) to instantly convey "hey guys, actually it's Adam Copeland, that wide-eyed kid from Toronto talking to you right now, go back to booing the Rated-R Superstar tomorrow," which was a big part of his charm and ability to get over long-term. All the top level guys have that - that ability to give you a glimpse of their real selves, and have you like that real self. I have zero idea of that from Rollins. He really needs a WWE Documentary or a couple shoot interviews I think.

    Originally posted by CruelAngel777

    I hate the gimmick personally because it's the happy singing smiling rapping dancing babyface gimmick I loathed all my life as a wrestling fan. I doesn't work ever (Flash Funk, KoKo B. Ware, WWE R-Truth, Men of Men on a Mission), because the gimmick is Vince's minstrel show and every fan no matter what his racial background can smell it.


Yes. So much this. See also: Clay, Brodus; Godfather, The. Dog, The Junkyard, etc., etc. ad nauseum.



www.allcitynewyork.com
dwaters
Bierwurst








Since: 16.10.02
From: Connecticut

Since last post: 1400 days
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.32
    Originally posted by MoeGates

    Yes. So much this. See also: Clay, Brodus; Godfather, The. Dog, The Junkyard, etc., etc. ad nauseum.


Yet when they try to do black heel groups like the Nation of Domination, they get criticized for portraying them as militant Nation of Islam types. Can't win.


That was a good comparison of Rollins to Edge. He needs a little more "edge" on the mic.

Listening to Jericho's book and he tells an interesting story about running into a dad and son in an elevator on the way into MSG and how he wouldn't smile, speak or look at them when asked for an autograph because he was heel. I didn't know they got THAT into character.

I really miss Bo Dallas and his Boliever character. There I said it. Is that cool to say?

MoeGates
Boudin blanc








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 23 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
Wow. Book people based on one racist stereotype instead of another racist stereotype and people complain. You just can't win I guess. What could possibly be a solution here? I just can't imagine.

Look at every single member of the old NOD. They all got over way bigger when they ended that angle and the members found their own character that wasn't a racial stereotype (except the Godfather). The Rock. APA Farooq (heck, WCW Ron Simmons). House of Pain Mark Henry. D-Lo, during that short window before he crippled Droz. Black characters - like any characters - get over when they're allowed to get AWAY from something stereotypical and find something genuine that connects to the audience. It's not just Black characters - Eddie Guerrero. Rikishi. On and on. All these guys get over when they're allowed to be individuals. When they're forced into a stereotype or race-based angle it fails. CruelAngle hit it on the nose - fans smell Vince's minstrel show a mile away and tune it out.

You can do a Black (or mostly Black) heel stable and not have it be based on race. Were the Horsemen ever like "We're four white boys from Minnesota, that's our thing?" My all-time favorite heel stable is Rock-Owen-D'Lo-era Nation, which, while predominantly Black, had their own, non-stereotypical thing going.

(edited by MoeGates on 18.12.14 1236)

www.allcitynewyork.com
Hokienautic
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

Since last post: 1467 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.89
    Originally posted by dwaters
    I really miss Bo Dallas and his Boliever character. There I said it. Is that cool to say?



    Originally posted by MoeGates
    You can do a Black (or mostly Black) heel stable and not have it be based on race. Were the Horsemen ever like "We're four white boys from Minnesota, that's our thing?" My all-time favorite heel stable is Rock-Owen-D'Lo-era Nation, which, while predominantly Black, had their own, non-stereotypical thing going.



What I'm hearing from the two of you is that The New Day needs to be preaching the gospel of the One True Boliever, Bo Dallas. Boom, no longer a black-only group. No longer racist. No longer "street." It's gospel-tinged, non-stereotypical, and has a stronger theme.
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 121 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.20
    Originally posted by Hokienautic
    What I'm hearing from the two of you is that The New Day needs to be preaching the gospel of the One True Boliever, Bo Dallas. Boom, no longer a black-only group. No longer racist. No longer "street." It's gospel-tinged, non-stereotypical, and has a stronger theme.


New Day seems like a WWE attempt to remake the Wyatt Family for kids.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.04
    Originally posted by GodEatGod
    I honestly think that if John Cena being Mr. "Don't Give Up" genuinely makes even one dying kid feel better for ten minutes (or, hell, more than one), never fucking turn him.

The last thing I would usually push for is a plan that says "make kids with cancer sad" but I don't know how long a company can go with "make kids with cancer happy" as their guiding business principle.

That said if Cena is still steadfast in his refusal to turn and WWE is terrified of the blowback, then keep him the technicolor good guy but deemphasize him. The problem becomes that apparently along with never giving up and wearing bright colors John Cena must always be the most important story happening. And 10 years of that has led to losing about 2/3 of the company's audience and increasing apathy amongst those who are left.

If John Cena must remain static and unchanging forever at some point he has to move into the living mascot role for the company. Think the Bushwhackers or Koko B. Ware. Let Cena fight an unending string of comic monster guys in the midcard to entertain the kids and clear out the logjam at the top of the card. I don't need a heel John Cena. I just need a John Cena that doesn't have everything revolving around him.



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.39
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Wow. Book people based on one racist stereotype instead of another racist stereotype and people complain. You just can't win I guess. What could possibly be a solution here? I just can't imagine.




People may not know this because it happened in TNA, but MVP, Bobby Lashley and Kenny King formed a pretty decent stable and they didn't do any of those things, so it can be done and it's what I was hoping WWE was going to rip off when I first heard about these guys getting together.
Hokienautic
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Blacksburg VA

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.89
    Originally posted by spf
    If John Cena must remain static and unchanging forever at some point he has to move into the living mascot role for the company. Think the Bushwhackers or Koko B. Ware. Let Cena fight an unending string of comic monster guys in the midcard to entertain the kids and clear out the logjam at the top of the card. I don't need a heel John Cena. I just need a John Cena that doesn't have everything revolving around him.


Haven't they already started the transition to that, though? I seem to recall a lot of talk about how "I may not be the future, but if you want to be the future you gotta go through me first." They seem to be slowly (yes, VERY slowly) transitioning Cena into the guy that up-and-comers prove themselves against on their way to the top. That would be a very valuable position for him, IMHO.
HMD
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.75
    Originally posted by Hokienautic

    Overall, I thought it was a fun show. I liked Jericho and his antagonism. I wonder why they didn't go the full route of having Heyman pin Jericho though -- I mean, there WAS supposed to be a match, no?


You want the final image of that segment to be Jericho laid out by the dominant monster heel champ. Heyman covering Chris for insult to injury does nothing for Brock and only makes sense if you're paying it off later. Doing that suggests a "Jericho's revenge" deal where Heyman gets his comeuppance down the road. That wasn't the story they were telling here.

For all the talk of Reigns being this year's Batista, Roman's still pulling great reactions. We'll see if it lasts, but even if there is some backlash I cannot fathom it being like Batista's last spring. Dave really came across as an outsider coming in out of nowhere after years away. Reigns still has a ton of goodwill built up from the Shield days, specifically being by far the best protected member booking-wise of the the most successful new act in years and never looking weak, ever. Ass-tastic promos aside. That injury may have been the best thing that ever happened to him. It got him away from WWE creative during a string of shows so staggeringly bad they almost defied the limits human comprehension.


(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 18.12.14 2233)



Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
GodEatGod
Bockwurst








Since: 28.2.02

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by GodEatGod
      I honestly think that if John Cena being Mr. "Don't Give Up" genuinely makes even one dying kid feel better for ten minutes (or, hell, more than one), never fucking turn him.

    The last thing I would usually push for is a plan that says "make kids with cancer sad" but I don't know how long a company can go with "make kids with cancer happy" as their guiding business principle.

    That said if Cena is still steadfast in his refusal to turn and WWE is terrified of the blowback, then keep him the technicolor good guy but deemphasize him. The problem becomes that apparently along with never giving up and wearing bright colors John Cena must always be the most important story happening. And 10 years of that has led to losing about 2/3 of the company's audience and increasing apathy amongst those who are left.

    If John Cena must remain static and unchanging forever at some point he has to move into the living mascot role for the company. Think the Bushwhackers or Koko B. Ware. Let Cena fight an unending string of comic monster guys in the midcard to entertain the kids and clear out the logjam at the top of the card. I don't need a heel John Cena. I just need a John Cena that doesn't have everything revolving around him.


I think putting the WWE's loss of audience on the shoulders of John Cena's booking is probably a little broad. The splintering media landscape, people just outgrowing the product, the major characters that created the boom (Austin, Rock, NWO, Foley, DX) disappearing or becoming shadows of themselves. MMA maybe having more appeal to teenagers than pro wrestling. There's a ton of contributing factors, well beyond "John Cena is an overpushed face".

I think you'd get sick of anyone on top, regardless of booking, for this long. It's just a matter of the changes in health regiment and treatment. Cena's put a lot of miles on his body, but he knows how to take care of himself and always comes back ahead of schedule. He also, apparently, is a freakish workaholic who would sometimes rather be out on the road wrestling than sitting in his giant mansion with Nikki Bella on his lap. Dude's weird.

I do agree with some that they -are- trying to acknowledge that Cena's become the establishment, that he's the guy you've gotta go through to get to the top. Hell, that's actually an interesting role for him - instead of "superman who always overcomes the odds", he becomes "longtime top guy who always has a target on his back". But, if that target's going to have any value, you can't just let him get beaten over and over again. He still has to win, and win a lot, for those rare losses to have value.



"Never piss off a hawk with a blowgun" - Conan O'Brien
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It was pretty sly, I must say, of John Cena to go for local pops by wearing a Canadiens jersey in Montreal. I'm sure he might have been a little nervous that the Francophones in the building would go apeshit for Dupree.
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