Originally posted by A FanND prides itself that they have a high graduating percentage and the students are succesful in jobs that don't involve sports.
If Notre Dame gave a shit about graduating Players Bob Davie would still be coach. Shit, Gerry FAUST would probably still be coach. But they dont, they care about winning games, because winning games keeps them on NBC.
Also, Im pretty sure Notre Dame has never been considered a top-flight academic school, no more than Miami is. So I dont think kids are taking the "easy way" by going to other schools.
"I could be wrong, but I doubt it"---Charles Barkley
Notre Dame also has a reputation of having tougher standards on its athletes than most schools. The thing is, they want those standards AND National Championships! It's an admirable goal, but I'm not sure it is realistic anymore.
The Bored are already here. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. And no... we won't kill dolphins. But koalas are fair game.
Originally posted by A FanND prides itself that they have a high graduating percentage and the students are succesful in jobs that don't involve sports.
And other universities don't? You clearly see the college football world through blue-and-gold-colored glasses, so let me just point out a couple of FACTS as relates to scheduling and conference-strength.
OPPONENTS RANKED IN TOP 25 (at day of game) Florida State - 2 USC - 2 Oklahoma - 3 Michigan - 3 (plus normally-ranked OSU was NOT ranked) Auburn - 4 (all top-15) Tennessee - 4 (all top-10) Miami - 4 Notre Dame - 4 Texas - 5
So, really ND didn't play a markedly tougher schedule than anyone else.
TEAMS IN BCS TOP 25 ACC - 4 SEC - 5 Big XII - 5 Big Ten - 4 ND opponents - 3
Again, the only two true high-quality rivals USC schedules every year are USC and Michigan, and USC's only bouncing back recently from a down-period. Stanford, BC, Michigan State, Pitt, and Purdue are middle-of-the-pack teams capable of a good year at a given time, and Navy is almost always horrid, so REALLY Notre Dame isn't playing a schedule that different from any team in an actual conference. ND played Tennessee and Washington? Good for them, but no more impressive than USC playing Auburn and Virginia Tech, or Oklahoma playing Oregon.
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trying to help flesh out the "did ND have a hard schedule?" discussion with more numbers. I don't care much either way, but I figure it's more helpful than debating the quality team by team.
1 Oregon State 2 Texas A&M 3 North Carolina 4 Arizona State 5 Arizona 6 Washington 7 Stanford 8 Baylor 9 BYU 10 USC 11 Texas Tech 12 Oklahoma State 13 Cal 14 Texas 15 Kansas 16 Washington State 17 Miami (FL) 18 Oregon 19 Notre Dame 20 Arkansas
Sagrin has ASU, USC, Cal and Oregon State in it's top 20, making it an exceedingly difficult confrence schedule and causing a lot of Pac 10 teams to show up high.
1 Texas A&M 2 Oregon St 3 Arizona St 4 Arizona 5 Baylor 6 Notre Dame 7 Oklahoma St 8 North Carolina 9 Kansas 10 Texas Tech 11 Texas 12 Stanford 13 Arkansas 14 BYU 15 Miami-Florida 16 Washington 17 La Tech 18 Iowa 19 Oklahoma 20 Southern Cal
(worst SOS? NIU! GOOOOOO HUSKIES - way to schedule a bowl! maybe)
There's no 'offical' strengh of schedule this year, because it's out of the BCS as a seperate element. I believe Palm uses the method they used to use, but not totally sure.
I'm not much of a fan of Notre Dame, but Ty I always liked. Something I noticed about him that I'm not sure if other people saw:
When interviewed, most coaches and players give pat "we need to play better and score more points" type of responses. Ty actually would spend the time going in debth and give real interviews that, to me at least, showed he really cared about the listeners out there.
Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one
Originally posted by A FanAlso, the ACC is getting better, but its nowhere near being the SEC or Big Ten where almost every game is a struggle. ACC has some real losers like Duke, Maryland and I'm not totally sold on NC ST or Virginia.
BAH-loney.
Bottoms of the conference barrels (teams two or more games below .500):
SEC Ol' Miss (4-7, 3-5) Miss St. (3-8, 2-6) Kentucky (2-9, 1-7) Vandy (2-9, 1-7)
ACC Wake Forest (4-7, 1-7) Duke (2-9, 1-7)
Big 10 PSU (4-7, 2-6) Ill. (3-8, 1-7) Ind (3-8, 1-7)
Also, using Sagarin's ratings (as well Howell and Wilson's ratings, but they're probably Liberals or something) the ACC outranks both the SEC and the Big 10.
Originally posted by A FanGee, one year FSU is not the ACC champ, I'm shocked.
VA was co-champ in 1995
ACC has some real losers like Duke, Maryland and I'm not totally sold on NC ST or Virginia.
It's amazing how you tried to spell Wake Forest and got Maryland from that
Maryland's record under the Fridge 2004-5: 5-6, 3-5 2003-4: 10-3 including a Gator Bowl win over WV which they creamed earlier in the year 2002-3: 11-3 including a Peach Bowl win over TN 30-3 2001-2: 10-2 including a creaming from Florida in the Orange bowl 23-56
36-14, 2-1 in bowls
VA the last four years 2004-5: 8-3, 5-3 and a bowl game coming up 2003-4: 8-5 including a Tire bowl win against Pitt 2002-3: 9-5 including a Tire bowl win against WV 2001-2: 5-7
30-20, 2-0 in bowls with one coming up
NCSU the last four years 2004-5: 5-6, 3-5 2003-4: 8-5 including a Tangerine bowl win over Kansas 2002-3: 11-3 including a creaming of ND in the Gator Bowl 28-6 2001-2: 7-5 including a loss to Pitt in the Tangerine bowl
31-19, 2-1 in bowls
ND the last four years 2004-5: 6-5 and a bowl game coming up 2003-4: 5-7 2002-3: 10-3 including a loss to NCSU in the Gator Bowl 6-28 2001-2: 5-6
26-21, 0-1 in bowls with one coming up
I am not going to say Notre Dame doesn't view itself high on the ladder of college football. Yet, they have the most tradition and minus the 1993 screw job they have won a championship or championships in every decade.
They did not win one in the '50s, but Maryland did in '53. ND got one in 1949 and the next in 1966.
(edited by Zeruel on 1.12.04 2118)
And now, for a limited time only, THE BAND IS OUT ON THE FIELD!!!"
Ahhhhhh, college football conference pride. With the falling of Notre Dame under the radar and the resurgance of USC, it seems a lot of college football fans are forgetting their history and tradition. Yes, Florida State and Miami are big right now. Yes, Maryland had a kinda-sorta comeback but they, like most of the ACC, are in that camp of average teams. Conferences are riddled with them.
Now, there's no way to compare two conferences to each other (besides Conference USA and the MAC or something). Each one usually has a different style of play that most teams go by, for example the Big 10 is a huge groundpounding conference. The Pac-10 is naturally fond of West Coasting. Interconference play is usually finding which team can play that conference's style best, and the bowl games have those conference styles face off. There really isn't a clear winner between run games or pass games.
Now, as for Notre Dame firing Willingham, they're obviously pissed at their current circumstances and smell a chance to snatch up Urban Meyer. He may spark a revival for them, and yes they are (for history and tradition) the top of the college football echelon. With the help of http://www.nationalchamps.net/NCAA/database/ , we can see which teams should be the "big names" based on history and championships.
Notre Dame Michigan Oklahoma Ohio State USC Alabama Pittsburgh Minnesota Penn State Nebraska
But now which of those teams gets favorable media treatment? Which of those teams have national fan respect? The bottom half of that list have slipped and that is because their recent efforts haven't been noteworthy. Notre Dame sees themselves as falling into a Pittsburgh/Penn State-like lethargy, and look to USC's recent resurgance and Urban Meyer's amazing job at Utah as ways back to what they always have been. People talk about Miami now because of the 80s, nobody mentions what Pittsburgh was able to do in the start of the 20th century. Notre Dame hasnt had a big splash recently and so Willingham was just a victim of circumstances.
Where does Notre Dame go now? I guess they had the confidence (arrogance?) that anybody would choose ND over every other school out there. If Meyer goes to Florida, then they're going to have another disaster, I think. Ty wasn't their first choice originally, and the next guy isn't going to be their first choice. They better get a big name to appease the boosters, otherwise this guy'll be gone in 3 years, too.
Its a huge blow, because Woody explained that they were thinking Meyer would stay another season, but once Florida got in the mix, they had to let Ty go. Now that Ty is gone, I say ND should just eat it and try to hire Ty back or wait till the smoke clears after the bowl games and NFL season and see what they can do. It does make Notre Dame look like idiots, my problem is that they should have waited on letting Ty go til after the bowl game which would have saved everyone this embarrassment.
"All faith reguires is giving into the possibility of hope."
I couldn't believe the number of articles (at espn.com, anyway) about how the firing itself was an embarassment and an indication of Notre Dame's general fall from grace.
It's certainly worse now if Meyer does indeed go to Florida.
But there's absolutely no way in hell they re-hire Willingham. I'm not sure whether organizations as large as Notre Dame can successfully reverse a move like that, but I do know they almost never try.
/tarnish...
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It was just reported (Mike and the Mad Dog on 660 AM, I believe) that Meyer wanted ND to lower standards so he could recruit "his guys". Notre Dame refused, so he's using the Florida job as a bargaining chip.
Take it with a heap of salt, but this keeps getting more and more interesting.
Originally posted by Roy.It was just reported (Mike and the Mad Dog on 660 AM, I believe) that Meyer wanted ND to lower standards so he could recruit "his guys". Notre Dame refused, so he's using the Florida job as a bargaining chip.
Take it with a heap of salt, but this keeps getting more and more interesting.
Meyer is smart. He realizes he sets himself up to fail at ND unless they allow him a few players like Holtz had with Rice and Zorich who wouldn't get in with the usual standards, but ended up doing well on the field and in the classroom. If Meyer goes to Florida, which is very probable at this point, ND has screwed itself royally. They fired Ty for Urban, get heat for breaking the 5 year tradition they had established, and then can't seal the deal on a coach who had an out clause for Notre Dame. And, when the history of the Collapse of Notre Dame is written, and it will be, it can all be traced back to Mike Miller screwing it up for everyone in the mid 90's and Notre Dame never allowing the football coaches a chance to relax the standards due to Miller.
Money is no replacement for the love of a good woman. Real estate, especially in the current marketplace, is another story.
So, is Paul Horning right, is ND's academics preventing them from getting the athletes they need? Today is a low day as an ND fan. I agree with firing Ty, if you watched the games he coached, he was out of his element in most of those games. I just wish ND would have given him another year though and let the Meyer darling go to Florida which is happening anyway. Low day for me.
"All faith reguires is giving into the possibility of hope."
No. It's a cop out. I *hate* that gets tossed around so much for why schools like Notre Dame (and Vandy, or Stanford, or wherever) can't compete. Northwestern, I believe, won a Big Ten title without lowering their admission standards. Stanford had a strong football program under Willingham without lowerin g their admission standards.
Notre Dame just isn't the first, second and third choice for today's top high school athlete anymore. Nor is it the prime destination for the Latest Big Thing in coaching, as shown by the fact that Meyer is the latest big name to turn down Notre Dame for other opportunities.
The idea that Notre Dame is The University of College Football in America (tm, Kornheiser) is gone. And as many have written over the past few days, it's Just Another School. The sooner everyone realizes that, the better (and saner) the students, faculty, boosters, and alumni will be.
"It's the four pillars of the male heterosexual psyche. We like naked women, stockings, lesbians, and Sean Connery best as James Bond because that is what being a [man] is." -Jack Davenport, Coupling
I was kidding about that whole "Fire Jim Tressel" thing. Really. I was.
It says that Florida is giving Meyer $14 Million over 7 years while it's reported that Notre Dame offered a 5 year deal with about a little over a Million a year. So an extra Million in your pocket a year seems like good incentive to go to Florida instead... Of course listening to Notre Dame fans a lot of their reaction was who needs him! We need a coach who when asked to lead The Irish his only response is "When should I be there".
The loss to Pitt at home I think was the breaking point in getting rid of Ty... The secondary was weak all year but they were victim to a lot of phantom defensive pass interference calls in that game late in the 4th quarter. Which is very unusual to happen to ND especially at home.
smark/net attack wienerville advisory holds at ORANGE alert - High (JBL is STILL WWE champion and now smarks arch enemy HHH is the World Champion. Major red threat, but the undercard seems okay. The alert holds... for now)- 9/19
Wow, David Garrard FTW. He single-handedly saved the Jags' season with that run at the end, even if he almost gave it away with those two picks. But let's be honest here. Garrard tossed two picks after having three all season.