Orton is the future. I think last night proved it. The RKOs reminded me of a good ol stun fest from the peak of Austin's run. Orton has a way to go but he is the real deal. HHH won't be the future but he is the now. I guess we can go back to bashing the guy while we hope for Orton to win his 2nd world title.
I just can't see the attraction, especially where there's other guys who have been there for awhile who have never or rarely been pushed to a championship. Why accept as fact that Orton should be the next WM champ? What about Jericho? What about the other guys who have been waiting, like Booker, RVD, etc.? Aren't they more deserving than Orton - also better at their jobs? Like I said, Orton's adequate, but nowhere near the level of being deserving of the title of the "Next Great Champ" IMO. Actually, I think Eugene does a better job of entertaining in the ring than Orton has so far, but I guess that maybe because he hasn't been hand picked for the title by the WWE, we're just supposed to accept it, huh?
"The RKOs reminded me of a good ol stun fest from the peak of Austin's run."
To me, it felt like they wanted to remind me of a good ol stun fest from the peak of Austin's run but it just felt fake and artificial. Closer to a good ol diamond cutter fest from when DDP was trying too hard to be a beloved superface.
Originally posted by KathyNumbersWhat about the other guys who have been waiting, like Booker, RVD, etc.? Aren't they more deserving than Orton - also better at their jobs?
As workers, Booker and Van Dam are, right now, not as good as Orton. I'm not loving on Orton, either. I think he is adequately carriable. I think he is far better off as a babyface than he is as a heel because his best feature in the ring is his selling, which is very good. Playing babyface allows him to utilize that more and gets him away from his very limited offense, which he can now use for comebacks. He's got a good finisher.
Booker has been having terrible matches with Cena and I can't remember the last good Van Dam singles match. All three are "undeserving" if you base world titles on how good and/or over they are. Van Dam is over but is nowhere near the level he was even a year ago, and Booker isn't really over as an upper-level heel. Part of that is because I think a large portion of the audience, even the ones that aren't "savvy" to who does what backstage and why, know that Booker and Van Dam aren't going anywhere. And some of those people just might think, in the kayfabe sense, that both are past their primes, because they don't win or do anything very important anymore. Booker is currently a foil placekeeper feud for Cena and Van Dam...I don't even know what he's doing.
Orton has been pushed heavy and is slowly but surely getting over as a face. The turn was so quick that I think it hurt the potential for his marketability as a babyface, because he was a very, very over heel that got turned on by other guys. He didn't necessarily do anything to make someone who's been booing him the past year want to cheer him. Didn't save a babyface, didn't turn on Evolution himself. He was happy with them and they took him out. That's a difficult turn to make happen, it's going to take more and more time. Just part of the stupid booking they're doing with him right now, really.
Orton is not going to be Rock or Austin or even Foley because he wasn't naturally taken to by fans the way they were. It's just a whole different thing.
He's more of a Triple H, whose big ass push toward the top started directly after Mania XIV and ended in August 1999 when he first won the world title. They did a year-and-a-half there, start heel, turn babyface, turn heel by breaking up DX. With Orton, they did a year of heel and a poor face turn in a night.
Nobody really took to HHH all that well. If you remember it was a real travesty and shame that Helmsley won the world title. He made it work, though, and put himself on a much higher level than really anyone thought possible of him. I guess we'll see if Orton can do that, but HHH was also a veteran by 1999, and Orton is still really young.
I should probably get off the fence about this, huh? Orton's going to be really good and a deserving top-level guy. He's not going to be the new super duper mega star, though. I don't consider H a super duper mega star, either.
I have to agree with you knightvibe, I really enjoyed the Otron/HHH match and thought Orton was excellent. And i think with time he will definately become a great main eventer. I can't say the RKO's reminded me of Austins peak, but it was certainly entertaining and I can see where you're coming from.
it's amazing how different opinions can be, even in wrestling. that's why wars are being fought. people jut can't agree.
Orton blows. He doesn't have any major compelling characteristics. I dont think he's better then Booker T or RVD in the ring. He doesn't have that ability to get the fans behind him like the stars of the past. He is what HHH was, and maybe one day could be, but he need to follow that same route. He should have been wrestling for the IC title for a few years, really get his character down and make changes where necessary. This was Jericho's time, this was Christian's time, Edge, Kane, Matt Hardy(RAW roster).
Rhyno and Tajiri could have been elevated to some extent instead of fodder for a bad tag team. Batista is holding a spot that ain't his. He hasn't earned it, and it shows in how he is percieved. He sucks too. I wont accept an argument. In 5 years maybe he could be another HHH or a Kane, but I bet he never even gets to that level.
If the WWE was being challenged by another promotion you wouldn't see these kids at the top. They're being pushed with patience to an extent, where they wouldn't have been before. It's good to be patient and give them time to learn but it's coming at the expense of the fans, ppv's and quality of programming.
In 5 years, Batista will be 41 years old. He's not "some kid".
Batista is perfectly fine where he is. He's not getting a super-push, he's usually the guy to eat the pin in Evolution (if Flair's not involved) matches. He's developed into a nice, carryable worker, which is a far cry from where he was when they called him up.
And Batista deserves his spot because... what? VKM gets hard-ons when he looks at his pecs?
Oh, cuz HHH isn't outshined by him? Yeah, that I'll buy.
Batista is all those things you say Spiff, but he still isn't main event material and is taking up space. As is most of Evolution, pre and post, as just bookends for HHH.
But Batista isn't the problem, or the topic of the post.
Batista's spot it to be there & look intimidating. Who else on the Raw roster can play that role better?
He's not a main-eventer, he just happens to be hanging around a ME'er. He's not even getting any kind of push, so what's the complaint? Who is being stalled by Batista being around?
The problem is none of these things. Orton could be getting mad heat right now, Batista could one day soon be a main eventer, HHH could still be interesting if the guys writing this crap had ANY grasp of the mechics of wrestling. Orton's been put in a bad, bad position and is taking unfair abuse for just trying his hardest. He shouldn't have turned, he should still be champion, and his feud with Hunter shouldn't have begun til at least December. We've seen it across the board this year, momentum and obvious angles not being capitalised upon over and over and over. Chavo as cruiserweight champion and rudo heel, Orton as a dickhead champion slowly left out in the cold, the Dudleys as a bullying heel unit, Jericho as the scorned lover pushed too far, Edge as a potential heel, Eddie Guerrero as WWE Champion, Michaels out for bloody revenge against Kane, Kidman and London as underdog champions....all potentially hot situations created, all situations left to wither and die on the vine thanks to godawful writing. For all Vince Russo's faults-and there were many, many of them-he would NEVER have screwed up something as simple as the HBK/Kane feud.
I mean, we're not talking about rocket science here, or even anything that'll cost the fed a dime to pull off. More thought, more focused storytelling, more time and care spent on the little things rather than dumbass attempts at mainstream exposure or comedy skits or yet another HHH interview. About the only bona fide success story this year has been Christian's surge into the uppercard heel role that Jericho played last year, and even tht's been more thanks to the guy's outstanding hard work than anything on the part of the bookers.
Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
Batista has been in every ppv for the last year (fact check, I'm pretty sure). I think Rhyno could have taken that spot. Maybe Jindrak, or O'Haire, or Cade. I know there have been many circumstances that have created what we have today in the WWE, injuries and whatnot, but this shit is being force fed down o0ur throats. And I agree that even though I don't like Orton he has [potential and it's not used properly. The writers suck. And you're simply there to write for HHH, VKM, and Steph, so maybe the blame should lay with them.
But what's with all the Batista love? I know he's better then we have seen (eh) and a decent talker and of course he has the look, but what else? Intimidating? Sure, but so are half the guys in the WWE. Build new stars? With a 36 year old? Shit, I'm 36 and I have no problem with mid-30 year olds getting a break, but there's people whio have paid some serious dues who didn't catch a break like The Deacon.
But I will give the argument to OSH who pinned the tail on the donkey, or even better the jackasses who are writing the shows.
Batista hasn't even come close to sniffing a high-placed PPV match. All his stuff has been in tags w/ Flair, or singles stuff in the middle of the card. His highest profile match was the triple-threat w/ Edge & Jericho. He's hardly getting pushed down our throats.
As for taking his spot: --Rhyno - too short (and I like the guy) --O'Haire - fired. He could have been Trish's "problem solver", though. --Cade or Jindrak - they'd be more suited to the Orton role, not the intimidator role. (Cade I don't much care for, but I'd be all for Jindrak getting into the SD midcard scene)
First of all, oldschoolhero is absolutely right. Beyond that ...
"Batista has been in every ppv for the last year (fact check, I'm pretty sure). I think Rhyno could have taken that spot. Maybe Jindrak, or O'Haire, or Cade."
Batista is way better than Jindrak and O'Haire, and I think he has way more upside than Cade since he's a monstrous freak who can bump and is getting better as a worker instead of just an okay worker with some size.
I'm jealous, to an extent, that Jericho and company are a lost generation who never got to run with the ball like they deserved and are stuck putting over the next wave of top guys instead, but the logic -- and it does make sense, even though it's not fair at all -- is that the Jerichos have been hung out to dry for so long as midcard guys just below the top that it's harder to wave a magic wand and tell people that now they're at the top. Because even though people have gotten behind them and are still behind them, there's a feeling of fool me once, shame on you, fool me a million times, I give up as far as putting faith in them winning the big one. Whereas a guy like Randy Orton is untainted by the booking of 2001-03 and hasn't been flattened out as 'just another guy,' so there's more potential in making a brand new special superstar with him.
However, considering the total dearth of headliners in the company, it's always better to have more guys who are over and knocking on the door than it is to have two or three clear cut guys on top while literally everyone else spins their wheels. If that'd been the case, then you don't end up in disaster situations like post-Wrestlemania on Smackdown, because instead of losing three guys and having NOTHING, if you've bothered to have kept Booker and Van Dam's heads above water instead of leaving them to die for the previous six months, then you can plug them in without *too* much of an apparent discrepancy. Instead, they only pay attention to and protect 2-4 guys on each side while the rest bounce around aimlessly, a total class system of the chosen ones and not-the-chosen-ones that by this point is even obvious to the casual viewers.
I'm not loving on Orton, either. I think he is adequately carriable.
And that to me is the crux of the problem. When "...he's adequately carriable" is best thing you can say about the guy, I can't see where that's enough. I can understand the experimenting with him, but rather than seeing it that way, I it looks more like another guy they're trying to cram down our throats whether we like it or not, and that's where I think the animosity against this guy is gonna come in. I can see where he hasn't been "tainted by the booking of 2001-03" as JMS said, but on the other hand, I feel he has been stigmatized as Trip and Vince's hand picked boy, much more than Brock ever was. What actual wrestling skills has he shown? Where's the entertainment value? In his promos? I don't he's done a decent promo since the RNN updates. I know that's subjective, but to me, especially lately, all he's been doing is a poor imitation of the Rock. I can see the comparison Scott made to Triple H, but what he says about HHH being a veteran, and Orton being a sophmore is the difference here. Orton's been seen as having been carried by older and more established wrestlers with his "Legend Killer" gimmick, and didn't have the time in as a "jobber" that Triple H did. To me, it seems he's rode on the back of better wrestlers, and hasn't gained much credibility showing what he can do against guys on his own level or slightly above it. I'm sure if Benjamin hadn't gotten hurt, we may have seen a program there, and that could have been good for him. Unfortunately, a series against any of the young guys other than Benjamin is gonna look "beneath him" now, I think, as the "former Champion" status may come back and bite him in the rear. To tell you the truth, I feel kinda bad for Orton. I don't think they're giving him a real chance to grow as a wrestler, meaning that Lesnar already had skills that this kid doesn't have, so he could effectively "hang with the big boys" where this kid can't. Benoit was over as champ because the fans perceived him as legit, and I don't think they're going to see Orton in the same way. I just wonder where he's going to fit in when this is all over.
Originally posted by JMShapiroI'm jealous, to an extent, that Jericho and company are a lost generation who never got to run with the ball like they deserved and are stuck putting over the next wave of top guys instead, but the logic -- and it does make sense, even though it's not fair at all -- is that the Jerichos have been hung out to dry for so long as midcard guys just below the top that it's harder to wave a magic wand and tell people that now they're at the top. Because even though people have gotten behind them and are still behind them, there's a feeling of fool me once, shame on you, fool me a million times, I give up as far as putting faith in them winning the big one. Whereas a guy like Randy Orton is untainted by the booking of 2001-03 and hasn't been flattened out as 'just another guy,' so there's more potential in making a brand new special superstar with him.
I agree with you completely. I think the WWE has fallen prey to the "instant gratification" disease. Instead of wanting a slow, steady build to things, they immediately squash angles wanting some sort of resolution to put whomever the current "boy of the month" is over. Invariably, you know that "Boy of the Month" will be HHH at least twice each year since we can't go a single year without a Horribly Huge Honker title reign.
It's a shame that Jericho and a lot of the guys on the mid-card like RVD and others won't get the top spot. I was surprised that Guerrero and Benoit held the belts as long as they did. However, at least in Benoit's case, his title reign wasn't given the fair amount of respect that a wrestler of his calibur and ring cred was actually given. I remember times when he would have the first match of the evening on Smackdown or have title defenses against some pretty generic wrestlers. It's not the type of hype or build up you would want to see for a champ. And at the same time, although Benoit was champ, you'd have HHH and Evolution come out for 20 minutes of grandstanding on the mike ad nauseum.
I'm not sure exactly who we can put the blame on for the whole thing, but hey, we're all obviously still watching it.
I don't think Orton is quite ME level yet, but he's getting there. He still needs to work on his "Ring Presence", because you just don't get the feeling that something big is going to happen when he gets in the ring.
On the other hand, the thing I like about him is that it seems that he tries hard. He sells well, and I like that it looks like he's actually trying to hurt people with his submissions.
I'd rather have a busting-his-ass-off Randy Orton than a go-with-the-flow RVD or Nash-like worker.
(Although I'd prefer a fired-up RVD, but that doesn't seem likely)
To respond to an earlier point, what really upsets me is the fact that these projects were clearly rushed along, when they could've been brought along slowly, utilizing BETTER OPTIONS as World Champions. On RAW, I have no doubt that Right Now, Chris Jericho would be a bigger draw and a more accepted #1 face than Randy Orton. He is superior in every facet of sports entertainment, and he wears the lingering aroma of better times in the Attitude Era. Fans WANT to see Jericho in a prominent role, and that's why he remains largely bulletproof. But instead of booking that strength into buyrate money, they unleash Project Orton on a public that was NOT clamoring for it.
On Smackdown, they endured bad ratings and buyrates while they essentially allowed a work in progress to find his stride WHILE working as the #1 heel on the brand, then as the World Champion. This was while Booker T, a former World Champion, who is EXPERIENCED at being in such a promising spot, was quickly squashed to midcard hell by the Undertaker (who will, in the end, probably put JBL over), and likely has no remaining main event credibility. I'm sorry, but if you're going to base a wrestler's heel persona on his considering himself above the entire roster, which he calls "minor league," you BETTER make him your #1 heel, and give him some kind of moral victory, so that he can continue to run his mouth. Smackdown could've run the "Minor League" angle as long as they wanted, until the return of Angle or Big Show, or the ascension of John Cena, while JBL was developing into what he is now. The same angles could've been run around the US title, but Layfield probably wouldn't have lost his FoxNews job, as he wouldn't have been in such a high-pressure situation. He would probably be even BETTER poised, then, to become a huge star, and his heel schtick would have been perfected.
So WWE gets no sympathy. They're under no pressure to crank out new stars now, if they wouldn't do it while ratings were in free fall. Orton winning the title at SummerSlam is in no way sweeter than Orton winning at Survivor Series. There were any number of good feuds for Orton to have before winning the Big Belt, but now he's a former champion in over his head after getting The Serious Push. Brock Lesnar had far more to work with, and even *he* didn't draw. What do you think will happen with RKO?
Now postponed until 10/11. Stand back! There's a hurricane comin' through! WrestleMania XXV ticket sales postponed to Oct. 11 Written: September 10, 2008 As seen on WWE.