HHH is the biggest star in the company who is currently a 100% active wrestler. While it is good that he is not clogging up the title scene so much anymore, he SHOULD have a prominent position on every show he is involved with. Crowds respond to him, he gets it done in the ring, and he's one of the best on the mic and in backstage segments. There isn't one reason to justify lessening his role on the show right now.
I doubt the higher-ups in WWE are prejudiced against Benoit at all. Have you even been watching since January? The man has had the push of a god. He has overcome every obstacle put before him since the Rumble. The match aginst Shawn didn't end with HHH saving Benoit from Shawn, it ended with HHH screwing over Shawn for taking HIS title match, and Benoit happening to capitalize on the situation to get the pinfall. Nothing there says Shawn would have even beaten Benoit if HHH had not come down. Both men were equally beaten at that point, and HHH just added a further blow to his most hated enemy.
Jericho and Christian had several matches throughout the course of their feud because that is what feuds are, a serious of bouts between two guys who hate each other. This is especially true of one which had been brewing for 6 months before either guy actually faced the other. Having just one match to end something that long-term is preposterous. Pro-wrestling would be a very very boring place if every feud were ended in one match.
Seeing Christian as just a "perrenial midcarder" who should have been quickly been dispatched by Jericho is equally as preposterous. Ever hear of elevating talent? Thats what Y2J/Christian was all about. A former ME, now upper-midcarder and a midcarder had a series of very good matches and they both came out the better for it. Now, Jericho can again be seen as a legit World Title contender if WWE chooses to go that route, and Christian is a legit upper-midcarder for giving Jericho such a run for his money. And now it would only take a few weeks of good buildup to get Christian to a level of World Title contention as well.
Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her. Harry: That's a special feeling.
"Jericho tries for the Walls of Jericho early on, but it is blocked by mysterious rays from Shawn Michaels while a message on the Titantron says, 'This move is mine now.' " -RAW Satire, 05.10.04
Okay, so I've had a big reply in this thead blow up thanks to IE and I'm not in a happy mood anyway.
Banned for 12 hours for posting stupidly, 12 hours more for complaining about that post being yanked (when really, I should've banned him to begin with and was being awful nice) and banned 24 hours on top for the unbelievable gall to whine about CRZ complaining on his own board: TheAmazingSalami.
Not Banned Because Even Though He Was Probably Being Sarcastic, He's Right (and he's probably going to get banned for something else later anyway, the rate he's headed): StevenRichards
For the rest of you I've already deleted here (leggo, GRL, hoodle in a second, probably more), we're going to play a little game. If I (or any other mod) have to delete another post after this for living up to the outrageous pointless stupidity of the previous ones, they're done for 48 and EVERYONE ELSE whose had a post pulled here ALSO gets a 48 ban. Your fate is out of your own hands - so maybe you should think before you post next time.
Anyone who has a problem with this is welcome to PM me or CRZ or Guru.
He (Benoit) has overcome every obstacle put before him since the Rumble.
He still doesn't have a decisive 1-on-1 win over HBK. Hopefully they will eventually do this over the summer (Summer Slam?), but that's 1 obstacle he hasn't overcome.
Now, Jericho can again be seen as a legit World Title contender if WWE chooses to go that route,
Not sure about that. Beating a career midcarder doesn't vault someone back into the ME scene. Beating someone like Kane would do it, but just beating Christian doesn't. Jericho himself has been floating around the midcard for far too long lately. He'll need a couple more feuds to build up some ME momentum.
And now it would only take a few weeks of good buildup to get Christian to a level of World Title contention as well
A few weeks? It's going to take longer than that. He needs to go over some higher level faces to get some momentum going to be taken seriously as a ME-level guy. That, and work on his offense, which is too dependant on rest holds. Even if they do stick him in the ME scene, I can't see it being a permanent move. Logically, Benoit still needs to feud w/ HBK, and after that is finished, he'll most likely be dropping the belt back to HHH. Maybe they can shoehorn in a quick Benoit/Christian feud, but I doubt it.
Originally posted by Boston IdolI keep reading that Benoit is going to put over Orton. Given that Orton and Benjamin drew boos at a house show, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that feud, at least not this summer. More likely Benoit, Edge, or Jericho will be tabbed to try to carry Randy.
Good luck!
Frank
Do you have a source for this?? Because I read that Orton/Benjamin were given a standing ovation.
Originally posted by Boston Idol because he didn't want to face Shawn.
Glass couldn't be more transparent.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here but when was it EVER set up that Benoit didn't want to face Shawn? I don't see the Triple H haters point that Triple H is more important because he did a ru-in on a title match to "save" Benoit. People getting screwed in title shots setting up a match has been happening since I was a little kid watching wrestling. Suddenly Triple H does it and he's putting himself over everyone else and dancing on the glass celing.
Who was the star of the draft lottery? Who saved Benoit from losing to Shawn?
He was the former Champion, of course they are going to make a big deal about him possibly switching shows. And as samoflange pointed out nothing says Shawn would have even beaten Benoit if HHH had not come down. Yes, Shawn had just hit the superkick but he was in no position to capitalize and both men were down.
Trip keeps going back to Shawn, like forcing Benjamin to disappear into thin air so he can feud with Shawn for the 4th or 5th time.
I'm sure it went down like this...
Triple H: I'm going to do the run in, keep that fucking camera off of Benjamin!!!
The problem is that it took him numerous matches to win a feud with perennial midcarder Christian, if indeed the feud is finally over.
He lost at WrestleManiaXX, won at Backlash, cage match was essentially the rubber match. I'm sure I'm missing a Raw match or two in here but I like that they are going back to do actual multi-month feuds. But that's just my own personal preference. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.
And another personal preference here, "perrenial midcarder" or not I've always found Christian pretty damn entertaining.
Triple H is holding everyone down! Christian is getting elevated? But he's a midcarder?! Hypocracy much?
RE: the Divas. Dude, I said decent, not **** OMG classics. I'd rather have that than bimbos like Stacy and Torrie rolling around tugging at each other's hair, no matter how hot they are.
Honestly Idol, I'm trying not to seem like I'm knocking every opinion of yours, its people's inability to just try to enjoy the shows that's starting to wear on me as a fan who surfs the net. Everyone acts like the WWE owes you a good product catered to each person's individual tastes. They run a business and can do it any damn way they please.
"Not sure about that. Beating a career midcarder doesn't vault someone back into the ME scene. Beating someone like Kane would do it, but just beating Christian doesn't. Jericho himself has been floating around the midcard for far too long lately. He'll need a couple more feuds to build up some ME momentum."
True, it's not a vault into the ME scene. It was a decisive victory over someone who has been built up as a tough competitor for Y2J, as well has having to overcome the interference of two other people to win. The image of Jericho on top of the steel cage with a bloodied Christian beneath him will hopefully be played up big time. So, it's not an instant jump to "I must have the belt now" but more of a transition to "I can definately put up a good fight for the belt." Good booking in the near future can solidify his position.
Spaceman Spiff also says:
"A few weeks? It's going to take longer than that. He needs to go over some higher level faces to get some momentum going to be taken seriously as a ME-level guy. That, and work on his offense, which is too dependant on rest holds. Even if they do stick him in the ME scene, I can't see it being a permanent move. Logically, Benoit still needs to feud w/ HBK, and after that is finished, he'll most likely be dropping the belt back to HHH. Maybe they can shoehorn in a quick Benoit/Christian feud, but I doubt it."
Again, same deal as with Jericho. Neither of these guys are instantly at the top of the roster right now, but after having a successful feud where both of them looked good throughout, they have elevated their respective positions. Jericho was an upper mid carder, now he would be more believable as a main-eventer. Christian was a mid-carder, now he can be considered an upper-midcarder who can hang with the ME talent, but not necesarily beat them yet. He's in the kind of position where he could get the pin over an established ME star in a tag match, or even win due to loads of Trish/Tomko interference in a singles match. I totally agree he needs to work on his offense more, as that is the one thing holding him back from having great matches instead of just very good matches. Perhaps a few weeks is rushing it a bit, but a month of good booking and solid ring work improvement could do the trick for Christian now.
Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her. Harry: That's a special feeling.
"Jericho tries for the Walls of Jericho early on, but it is blocked by mysterious rays from Shawn Michaels while a message on the Titantron says, 'This move is mine now.' " -RAW Satire, 05.10.04
Still pushed as the most important star on the show, but still suffering from being stale and having no new rivals. Trip vs Shelton Benjamin was rushed, dropped faster than one could say "Jeff Hardy", and buried Monday night when Benjamin vanished during Shawn's run-in, leaving the long running soap opera between Trip and Shawn as the major storyline of the RAW brand.
Long decryed as keeping everyone else down so that he could keep a top position, he is still one of the most commanding presences (along with Benoit) left on the roster. Since he's been constantly winning for years, any victory against him looks far more important. The reaction of people in the audience at Wrestlemania was awesome. Peopleweren't just cheering for *Benoit* to win, they were hoping for *Triple H* to tap as well. As such, all of Benjamin's wins have seemed strong. Even if they were via "screwy" methods, he has almost always had some negative circumstance involved (Evolution present, Shawn Michales interference). If Mick Foley can't fend for himself against Evolution (minus HHH), why should Benjamin. I admit, I would have prefered to have a Benjamin interview after the match, but the lack of one does not mean BURIED. Ahem. As you may tell from my Avatar, I'm a HHH Fan, and now it seems like his giving a little back. There isn't always a conspiracy everywhere.
2) Shawn Michaels
Shawn's sexy boy gimmick is starting to look pretty creepy, like a middle aged man chasing chicken, but he got a good rating in a decent match with Benoit and Trip sees him as a great way to keep everyone else down, so he can continue to live his fantasy.
I agree that he seems kind of creepy. He reminds me of an uncle that thinks his pretty cool and funny, but isn't. He needs to turn heel and feud with new people that aren't involved with HHH at all.
3) Chris Benoit
Stuck as the third wheel to Trip and Shawn until he's sent hurdling back into the midcard mix... or SmackDown! Caught a break drawing a disappointing number against Shawn that looked a lot better a week later, but still destined to return to a midcard enhancement role.
Benoit was always had an image of being strong. The fans have always respected that and now it seems WWE is too. He doesn't need to be involved in interview and encounter after encounter to make a story. His presence immediatly makes an event important now. Mix that with the way the WWE Hype-Machine has gotten behind him and barring injury I think he's going to have a good run.
4) Chris Jericho
After finally ending his long running feud with Tatanka*, er, Christian, he actually mentioned the WWE title on RAW, hinting that he may yet have more than midcard heavy metal aspirations. Unfortunately he needs to be built up after getting caught in the quagmire with Christian for so long. Could be the next "legend" to fall to Orton.
Jericho reminds me in some ways of the Dudleys and RVD. Really cool and novel at first, but maybe it's just the moveset, but it's gotten stale. He's okay when he talks, but even that's becoming Rock-like formulaic, and as good as he is on the mic, he's no Rock. Fighting Christian hasn't helped his image either, but he needs to shake something up. I'm not sure how.
5) Randy Orton
Heavily protected in tags and short matches, but still not ready for the big matches. Orton made several gaffes against Edge and his moveset is still a work in progress, including the worst assortment of "restholds" in many years.
I actually find myself enjoying Orton's restholds. I think mainly it's because he always has a facial expression that seems to give a reason and some more believability behind the move rather than the obvious breat catcher. He shouldn't have been so rushed, but he was. So now we can either keep complaining about what happened, or we can accept it and move on. I'd rather see him fight Shawn Michaels or even Kane for awhile before he starts up on Benjamin or Edge. He still needs a bit of polish on his moves, but his character is down.
6) Edge
Returned from injury and was given the task of carrying and putting over Lex Orton. Edge looked pretty good, despite some laughers from Orton, but his value will depend on where he goes from there. He should be pushed higher while Orton should be protected until he's ready.
I always like Christian better, but Edge seems to fit into the ME picture much easier than he does, Perhaps it's the "look" but I can buy him easier. He really needs a reason, or a backstory for what he's doing though. It seems like WWE is relying on the audience to remember all of Edge's past events from a year ago, when they ordinarily don't seem to trust the audience to remember what happened before the break. A feud with Christian would help since they have so much backstory. It boggles my mind that these two "brothers" haven't even said anything to each other since Edge showed up!
7) Kane
One week he abducts Lita. The next week he abducts Val Venis. Where's Ross with the "switch hitter" jokes?
It was looking sooo good when he lost the mask. But unfortunatley the WWE has completley dropped the ball with it. What happended to him thinking he was covered in scars? So why doesn't he cover his torso anymore? But still wears a towel sometimes? WTF?
8) Batista
Batista is working hard and doing what he is told to do. Fans gulled by Orton's singles push, looks, and feud with Foley aren't giving Batista enough credit, but he's better off going unnoticed while riding in the wake of Triple H's faux Horsemen.
I agree with this. While HHH and Orton are taking all the flak, Batista is able to steadily improve and learn from Flair. I dig the way he gets up so quick after a powerbomb.
9) Eugene
Hillbilly Jim, Norman the Lunatic, Doink, and Zach Gowen. Did any of them become more than a short term midcard novelty act? At best Eugene is a singles version of Too Cool that can be used to heat up the next Rikishi, that being whoever takes Eugene aside and explains how Regal is using him.
This whole Eugene thing is awesome, but it does have a limited scope. We can only watch it for so long. But I'm prepared to enjoy the ride.
10) Ric Flair
Ric Flair is embarrassing himself and his legacy, but at least he's doing it on a big stage rather than working indy shows like Terry Funk or Misawa. Just think of Flair as "our Giant Baba."
Flair needs to stop wrestling and just manage Batista and do cheap shots in Evolution matches. Although the Evolution vs Rock & Sock was pretty fun... so keep him managing every once and a while, and just break out the crazy old man every once and awhile.
11) WWE Divas
They better hope Vince watches RAW instead of NBC's "The Restaurant", because the girl who got fired on Monday looked much better than all of them except Stacy and she would probably be willing to "play ball."
That's pretty much a personal opinion. Victoria and Molly have both lost a ton of steam. Lita's just horrible, and Stacy has no business wrestling. Looks like Trish, Jazz and the now pushed Gail Kim are it.
12) Eric Bischoff
The best Jack Tunney ever, if you don't count Vince McMahon, and lucky to be marking time on Trip's show which will always be the stronger of the two "brands" in the WWE.
Eric is awesome. One of my non-wrestling-watching friends says Bischoff's his "hero" whenever he hears him speak.
13) Christian
The success of Eugene's character makes the failure of guys like Christian more obvious. Fans are more into Trish.
As I mentioned in the Edge section, I like Christian, but he carries the taint of the midcard with him. He'd have to do something really special to move up.
14) Shelton Benjamin
Disappeared May 10, 2004. Got pushed way too soon and was badly exposed. His moveset, which should have been developed and refined at OVW and in months of tag matches, was still a work in progress and he was still blowing simple spots like a firemans carry by taking people over using their right arm and then obviously switching over to bar the left arm. In the end, TWGTT may go down as little more than a parody of ECW hyped teams like the Eliminators.
Frank
Well, let's give him some more time. He's gotten a pretty good push so far, and one MIA isn't enough to completley destroy your career (see HHH vs Goldberg feud). But damn, get some new music.
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here > but when was it EVER set up that > Benoit didn't want to face Shawn?
Misunderstanding. It was shown that Trip didn't want to face Shawn, hence the decision to save Benoit's title by stopping Shawn from beating him.
"Don't throw me in that Shawn-patch." - Brer Trip
Of course the reality is that Trip wants to keep working with his buddy Shawn, but to try to build heat for the umpteenth rematch they needed to make Benoit look like a chump and make Shelton Benjamin disappear.
> People getting screwed in title shots > setting up a match has been happening > since I was a little kid watching > wrestling.
Remember Saturday Night's Main Event when Hercules had Steamboat up in the backbreaker and heel Randy Savage ran in to save Steamboat's title?
> Suddenly Triple H does it and he's > putting himself over everyone else > and dancing on the glass celing.
Set aside Trip if he confuses you.
Who looked good in the SNME example?
1) Savage, who made the save on Herc
2) Herc, who had the champ beat
3) Steamboat, who needed to be saved
It sure as heck wasn't #3, which is the role Benoit was playing last week.
> I'm sure it went down like this...
> Triple H: I'm going to do the run in, > keep that fucking camera off of Benjamin!!!
Actually it was more like this...
Triple H: Okay, Shawn is going to do the run-in, so Shelton, you have to go around behind the cameraman so that viewers don't see you running away like a scalded dog. Someone remind the cameraman that he needs to step forward and get a real tight shot on me and Shawn so that nobody thinks Shelton is chickenshit, okay?
I imagine Trip using "okay" a lot, but purely in a rhetorical sense.
> He lost at WrestleManiaXX, won at > Backlash, cage match was essentially > the rubber match. I'm sure I'm missing > a Raw match or two in here...
I think you are missing an obvious one where they went right back to the feud as if they were trying to burn it out in the ring as soon as possible.
> but I like that they are going back > to do actual multi-month feuds. But > that's just my own personal preference. > We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.
I like multi-match feuds if there is a point to them other than sidedraining someone who might be a threat to Trip. I don't like rolling out a rematch the night after a PPV and if this feud mattered they wouldn't have given away the blowoff on free TV.
> And another personal preference here, > "perrenial midcarder" or not I've always > found Christian pretty damn entertaining.
Entertaining midcarders are great. Tajiri is often entertaining, but I never confuse that with him getting a main event push.
> Triple H is holding everyone down! > Christian is getting elevated? But he's > a midcarder?! Hypocracy much?
Christian lost the blowoff match. That doesn't sound like "elevation" to me. Also it looked like Christian could be headed for a Christian/Trish vs Matt/Lita feud where Christian and Matt will be deck chairs next to more popular partners.
But maybe I'm wrong. Let's see where Christian goes after getting the rub by losing a feud with Chris "I haven't smelled a main event in months" Jericho.
My bet is that Christian got "elevated" by Jericho the same way Hurricane got "elevated" by the Rock, but we'll see.
> RE: the Divas. Dude, I said decent, > not **** OMG classics.
Looking at feedback around the web, most fans seem to think the Divas segments were a complete waste of time and their match was uninspired crap. That opinion comes from folks giving the overall show high marks, too, so you can't dismiss them as merely being cynical.
: I'd rather have that than bimbos like : Stacy and Torrie rolling around tugging : at each other's hair, no matter how hot : they are.
I'd rather get my cheesecake elsewhere, but if the WWE needs TNA they should give the Divas valet roles and cut the pretense of putting them in the ring.
: Honestly Idol, I'm trying not to seem : like I'm knocking every opinion of yours, : its people's inability to just try to : enjoy the shows that's starting to wear : on me as a fan who surfs the net.
I was pleasantly surprised by Edge's performance against Orton, and by some of Orton's bumps, and by Batista taking some moves for Tajiri, though I doubt they are going to do anything worthwhile with Tajiri to justify having a "monster" take offense from him. I was looking forward to seeing more from Orton but didn't get it, plus he goofed up twice. I was looking forward to seeing more from Benjamin, if for no other reason than he's a new face as a single, but he vanished into thin air. I was hoping not to see a reprise of Shawn vs Trip, not that I've liked many of Shawn's other feuds. Eugene was effective, but experience tells me the novelty will wear off faster than Doink's face paint.
: Everyone acts like the WWE owes you a : good product catered to each person's : individual tastes.
Check those ratings again, the crappy ones that people accuse me of ignoring. Forget me... attendence at house shows speaks louder than I do. Forget me... pay-per-view buyrates speak louder than I do. Forget me... I was part of the shrinking crowd that actually watched RAW instead of something else this week.
It's not about me, so let's cut the gas.
: They run a business and can do it any : damn way they please.
Sure, and since I'm just a fan I can congratulate, complain, or do whatever I please, including turning them off.
They owe me nothing. I owe them nothing. If they want my viewership, they need to deliver a better product. The car wreck of dropped pushes, exposed workers, and tired feuds being recycled won't keep my attention forever. I love pro wrestling, but I've got plenty of it on videotape.
Quick, name 3 things you liked about RAW this week and last week?
I find the negativity (even if its somewhat accurate yet overly cynical) to be easier to take for most people if you sprinkle in some positive thoughts.
"Each race determines for itself what indecencies are. Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them." - Mark Twain
No, no, I can find three, it's just that I was actually looking forward to seeing the next chapter of Shelton vs Trip rather than another romance novel about Trip and Shawn.
1) Tajiri being used on TV
He's talented and far more deserving of air time than choads like Test and Billy Gunn who have taken years off our lives. I'm not sure where the upside is, he's not going to main event and probably can't even reach the IC level, but he'd be a great TV challenger for smaller champs like Benoit or Eddy, he might be good in tags if paired with a big monster, and he's enjoyable on a regular basis as long as they don't call him "Jap" or do lame skits in broken English. Most of my neighbors in Cupertino were Asian, none of them sounded like bad Charlie Chan. Vince McMahon needs to stop living in the nineties- the 1890's, when black people were afraid of ghosts and whatnot.
Net positive?
2) Batista continuing to work hard
I hated Batista when he debuted, but he works hard and takes plenty of offense for his opponents, sometimes too much to the point of looking like an also-ran rather than the next franchise monster. Batista bumping for Benoit is great, Chris is the champ and needs to show that he can handle big opponents, but Batista bumping for Tajiri undercuts the effectiveness of that by putting Tajiri on the same plane with Benoit.
Think about it. People can't be elevated without a ladder and you can't make a ladder when all the rungs are at the same level. I'm not suggesting Batista for a title, just saying that making him look stronger against undercard guys would make his bumps for featured stars mean that much more.
3) Edge brings focused offense
I thought Edge did a nice job of bringing a bunch of spots without losing focus on Orton's back and without the match looking like a spot-a-thon.
4) Edge and Orton pacing
Edge and Orton also divided their match into long runs of control for each man which made the counters more significant than the old "your turn, my turn" that had taken over the promotion. Orton didn't have enough stuff to fill his longer turns, but that's better than throwing in a pile of missed lariats just to "keep things moving."
5) Orton's bumping
Orton took some nice bumps which helped make Edge's offense look good. The attempted nothing into the jumping powerbomb was a bit too obvious and way too dangerous, but clearly Orton is putting his body on the line to try to put on a show. The bump off the apron for the pedestrian spear to the back made that move more meaningful as well. No one should confuse Orton with Barry Windham circa 1986, but Orton doesn't have that much experience yet, either. I hope he doesn't get concussed taking a powerbomb wrong and I hope he works on his offense so that he can fill time better, but I do see plenty of potential.
I do marvel when his mistakes are blamed on others though. That's a dead giveaway of blind fanboys.
6) Eugene works
Eugene (the character) has no main event potential and probably won't hold interest in the midcard for very long, but Dinsmore and Regal did well and the segment worked. Segments that work are always a positive next to segments with Test, Scott Steiner, and Billy Gunn, but let's not confuse Eugene with an impact star. At best he keeps the gimmick going for a few years like the Bushwackers, who sadly could probably still draw more crowd response than most of the tag teams in the WWE today.
7) Jericho mentions the World title
Hard to believe that Chris Jericho, faux rocker and talk show host, was once the first "undisputed" World Champion with victories over Rock and Austin on his resume. Jericho has been slumming ever since, a little nonsense with Nash here, replacing Edge as Christian's partner there, etc. Finally he's making noise like someone who wants to be a main eventer again and finally he's dispatched Christian, who would have been a mere speed bump for Trip, Rock, Austin, Goldberg, and anyone fans saw as a real main eventer.
Mentioning the title was a good first step. Hopefully Jericho will continue to climb the ladder because we need someone besides Shawn and Trip to challenge Benoit if Chris survives as champion past the next PPV.
There you go, seven legitimate positives. Don't take my caveats as a backhanded attempt to spin them into negatives. Just as you see too many negatives on the net, I see too much optomism, like those people on this site who gushed about how Hurricane was being elevated.
Frank
(Edit: As pointed out earlier, EB's ability to pull off the tired role of GM and read the goofy scripts he is given with style is also a positive.)
"Of course the reality is that Trip wants to keep working with his buddy Shawn, but to try to build heat for the umpteenth rematch they needed to make Benoit look like a chump and make Shelton Benjamin disappear."
I'll get off the Triple H Politics discussion because we obviously have differing views that neither will budge from, which is fine. But when Shelton Benjamin has disappeared off the Raw Brand, remind me and I'll concede you're right. I'm just not buying it based on your examples.
"Remember Saturday Night's Main Event when Hercules had Steamboat up in the backbreaker and heel Randy Savage ran in to save Steamboat's title?"
Yes, but I don't think this is the same thing. Wouldn't Savage's motivation be to save Steamboat's title because he wanted a rematch with Steamboat, not a feud with Hercules. It's also a pretty bad example because Steamboat was buried pretty badly shortly after this when he lost the IC Title to the Honky Tonk Man. I don't think the 2004 version of this analogy is leading to Benoit dropping the title to [insert gimmicky midcarder here].
"Christian lost the blowoff match. That doesn't sound like "elevation" to me."
"My bet is that Christian got "elevated" by Jericho the same way Hurricane got "elevated" by the Rock, but we'll see"
The comment this was responding to was more of a comment on the IWC hypocracy sometimes, not entirely directed at you. Elevation was a bad choice of words. Can we agree he's been getting a push then? He has a body guard and a valet and gets prominent air time and a Main Event Slot on Raw. If Jericho was struggling like this with Val Venis, then yes its a big problem, he's being held down. I'd like to see Jericho at the top of the card as much as you. I loved his run as Undisputed Champ until, Trips and Stephy ruined it. I've also always found Christian to be pretty credible and I would buy him in a Upper Mid Card-to Main Event Slot, he gets decent heat. In my opinion its a pretty high profile feud. Personal opinion, and nothing more.
"Looking at feedback around the web, most fans seem to think the Divas segments were a complete waste of time and their match was uninspired crap."
When talking about the Divas segments, its all just my opinion. I don't base my opinion on what everyone else thinks, I generally enjoy the Women's segments on Raw. This week sucked...yes.
This is the last of me on this subject...because I fear we're running in circles... Good discussing this with ya I dol.
"Quick, name 3 things you liked about RAW this week and last week?"
This Week 1)Batista's counter to the Green Mist 2)Eugene 3)The Cage Match
Last Week 1)6-Man Tag 2)Triple H Water Bottle 3)HBK busting out the Liontamer (While it pisses me off that Jericho can't, it was still pretty cool to see it)
>> Remember Saturday Night's Main Event >> when Hercules had Steamboat up in the >> backbreaker and heel Randy Savage ran >> in to save Steamboat's title?
> Yes, but I don't think this is the same > thing. Wouldn't Savage's motivation be > to save Steamboat's title because he > wanted a rematch with Steamboat, not a > feud with Hercules.
Right, which made Steamboat look weak, the "easier pickings" in Savage's view.
And the finish of Shawn vs Benoit made it _look_ like Trip wanted to face Benoit rather than Shawn, which since Trip is a heel was an attempt to make the fans at home want to see Trip vs Shawn, which is what the man who plays Trip on TV wanted as his matchup all along, regardless of what his character did in a storyline.
Is that any clearer?
Trip is smart. His angles make sense and the collateral damage to those he works with almost seems accidental, like Benoit being made to look weak to help promote the "necessary" Trip vs Shawn matchup.
Of course one could ask why the WWE is going back to Trip vs Shawn so soon rather than Benoit vs Shawn with Trip sidedraining the way he has sidedrained people like Jericho over the years.
I think we know the answer there.
> It's also a pretty bad example because > Steamboat was buried pretty badly shortly > after this when he lost the IC Title to > the Honky Tonk Man. I don't think the > 2004 version of this analogy is leading > to Benoit dropping the title to [insert > gimmicky midcarder here].
I hope you are right about that. Certain people didn't want Steamboat, who was then one of the best workers in the company, to succeed as a main eventer. That, and the crappy "former champ runs in to save the apparently easier to beat current champ" angle are the obvious parallels. I too hope Benoit has better luck than Steamboat.
*****
In response to an earlier inquiry about a source on Orton vs Benjamin drawing boos, here is the link to that RAW show report.
If you check all the RAW show reports it looks like the WWE quickly shifted from this twenty minute draw to five minute sprints where Orton won with feet on the ropes or outside help. It's pretty clear that the promotion is now trying to hide the limitations of this matchup after they badly overexposed them in early April. That also coincides with Benjamin getting less attention on TV, so it looks like he is being blamed for the poor response.
Originally posted by Boston IdolRight, which made Steamboat look weak, the "easier pickings" in Savage's view. And the finish of Shawn vs Benoit made it _look_ like Trip wanted to face Benoit rather than Shawn, which since Trip is a heel was an attempt to make the fans at home want to see Trip vs Shawn, which is what the man who plays Trip on TV wanted as his matchup all along, regardless of what his character did in a storyline. Is that any clearer
No, HHH interfered in the match because Shawn had been given his match. His mentality was that since Shawn had been given his match he was going to ruin the match. That was how it was played out by JR. He's not stopping Shawn from winning because he wants to face Benoit more than Shawn, he did it because he is being dickish heel and ruining the match that he thought should have been his.
And Savage saved Steamboat not because he is "easier pickings", but because he was the man that beat him, so Savage wants to get his revenge and beat him.
Stuck as the third wheel to Trip and Shawn until he's sent hurdling back into the midcard mix... or SmackDown! Caught a break drawing a disappointing number against Shawn that looked a lot better a week later, but still destined to return to a midcard enhancement role.
I'm amazed the WWE machine has stayed behind him for this long, but then again having Benoit look strong only makes whoever beats him look stronger. If you are looking for a long title run or even multiple title runs from Benoit snap out of it, you will only disappoint yourself down the road. Benoit is going to be Triple H's Ronnie Garvin except a more talented and over version. Barring major injury to a few top stars Benoit will never be in this place again, so enjoy it now.
Stuck as the third wheel to Trip and Shawn until he's sent hurdling back into the midcard mix... or SmackDown! Caught a break drawing a disappointing number against Shawn that looked a lot better a week later, but still destined to return to a midcard enhancement role.
I'm amazed the WWE machine has stayed behind him for this long, but then again having Benoit look strong only makes whoever beats him look stronger. If you are looking for a long title run or even multiple title runs from Benoit snap out of it, you will only disappoint yourself down the road. Benoit is going to be Triple H's Ronnie Garvin except a more talented and over version. Barring major injury to a few top stars Benoit will never be in this place again, so enjoy it now.
Ron Garvin won the title so he could lose to Flair at Starrcade. Benoit won the title at Wrestlemania. Why would they give Benoit the Rumble win (from the #1 entry) and Wrestlemania main event win, at what they billed to be the biggest Wrestlemania in history, if they only wanted Benoit to have a little title reign, drop the title back to Triple H, then be thrown back to the midcard.
Originally posted by NenzRon Garvin won the title so he could lose to Flair at Starrcade. Benoit won the title at Wrestlemania.
Well - and I'm not making this argument because I don't know - the floating idea since he won was that he would lose it back to Triple H at Summerslam. Just because there's a longer turnaround doesn't mean it's not the same type of thing, you know?
Why would they give Benoit the Rumble win (from the #1 entry) and Wrestlemania main event win, at what they billed to be the biggest Wrestlemania in history, if they only wanted Benoit to have a little title reign, drop the title back to Triple H, then be thrown back to the midcard.
Calling it the biggest WrestleMania in history was just so you'd buy it then. It really doesn't matter what legacy the results of that show leave because by now you already paid for it or you didn't. They gave him the Rumble win to build his credibility, they gave him the Mania win to reward him for his hard work/switch up the title scene/whatever. It also didn't hurt that Backlash was in Edmonton and they could have hoped for a strong buyrate and sellout crowd out of him going in there as champion.
If they get a strong title reign out of Benoit (which they have so far, in my opinion) then that's a bonus. If Benoit ever gets back to the tippy-top level then it's a bonus for him. As it is, I take this as a nice gesture to a guy who's earned it and not a lot more, but that doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it. I'm just not going to go nuts when he drops the title and then puts over guys like Orton and Batista or something, because he's almost 40 and using whatever rub he can give out of being a former world champion is probably a good idea. He's good enough to be thrust right back into the main event picture at any time in the next couple years, too.
Originally posted by NenzRon Garvin won the title so he could lose to Flair at Starrcade. Benoit won the title at Wrestlemania.
Well - and I'm not making this argument because I don't know - the floating idea since he won was that he would lose it back to Triple H at Summerslam. Just because there's a longer turnaround doesn't mean it's not the same type of thing, you know?.
I'm just saying that Ron Garvin won the title so he could lose it at the biggest event of the year, whereas Benoit won at the biggest event of the year. Even if he is losing it at Summerslam Benoit's situation is not particularly similar to Garvin's. And even if he does lose it at Summerslam that is quite a good title run in these days. I think that it would be longest non-Triple H title reign since Austin in 2001.
Originally posted by ScottieKStones
Originally posted by Nenz
Why would they give Benoit the Rumble win (from the #1 entry) and Wrestlemania main event win, at what they billed to be the biggest Wrestlemania in history, if they only wanted Benoit to have a little title reign, drop the title back to Triple H, then be thrown back to the midcard.
Calling it the biggest WrestleMania in history was just so you'd buy it then. It really doesn't matter what legacy the results of that show leave because by now you already paid for it or you didn't. They gave him the Rumble win to build his credibility, they gave him the Mania win to reward him for his hard work/switch up the title scene/whatever. It also didn't hurt that Backlash was in Edmonton and they could have hoped for a strong buyrate and sellout crowd out of him going in there as champion.
If they get a strong title reign out of Benoit (which they have so far, in my opinion) then that's a bonus. If Benoit ever gets back to the tippy-top level then it's a bonus for him. As it is, I take this as a nice gesture to a guy who's earned it and not a lot more, but that doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it. I'm just not going to go nuts when he drops the title and then puts over guys like Orton and Batista or something, because he's almost 40 and using whatever rub he can give out of being a former world champion is probably a good idea. He's good enough to be thrust right back into the main event picture at any time in the next couple years, too.
I know that they billed it as the biggest to get the buys, but they also had to put a card that could somewhat justify their hype. The WWE felt confident enough with Benoit to give him the main event win in an historic 20th Wrestlemania. They also pushed him much harder than they needed to if all they wanted was a placeholder World Champion. They gave him the Rumble win from the #1 spot, something that only Shawn Michaels has ever done, and he lasted longer than anyone has ever done. They could have given him the Rumble win from any entrant number and he would still have the credibility. I do agree with your assessment of what they will use him for after the title, but I expect to remain in the title picture until at least next year.
> I do agree with your assessment of what > they will use him for after the title, > but I expect to remain in the title > picture until at least next year.
If Benoit keeps the title and gets to face fresh, well built up opponents then he could remain in the picture. If Trip or Shawn wins the title, they would need fresh opponents too and Benoit would not be fresh against either of them. Someone needs to move on so that the WWE can build up fresh challengers like Jericho.
Where have you seen the two-year figure? Anything I saw was missing a length -- which made some theorize that it was a short-term contract and Lesnar would be dropping the title in Saudi Arabia. Has the WWE announced a length to the contract?