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The W - Pro Wrestling - Orton as champion? (Page 2)
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JoshMann
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.84
    Originally posted by A Fan
    a period of time where the fans probably will be bored by the chinlocks of doom.

    Hell, I want more people in the main event picture like...Christian



You're bitching about Orton's lack of a moveset, and you're thinking CHRISTIAN should be in the main event? That's slightly contridtictory.






(edited by Blanket Jackson on 2.8.04 1122)


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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.69
I don't think so. Christian had a pretty good year till he got injuried early into the summer. If he came back with a Vengance I'd expect him to headline at least one PPV. I doubt if he would win, but at least I know he is ready for the main event. Orton is not ready for this. He maybe the real deal, but I haven't seen it.
Mayhem
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Since: 25.4.03
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.68
I personally think it's great ... while I'd love to see Benoit keep it longer (but hey, let's be honest, who expected him to keep it THIS long?), it's time to establish more top-tier guys. I think Orton is perfect for the role ... he's great on the mic, his ring skills aren't terrible ... and I personally just think he has the "IT" factor ... no, I'm not an Orton mark, but to me, the guy is entertaining.

Now I wonder if it'll be X-Pac that takes his place in Evolution ...

(edited by Mayhem on 2.8.04 1131)



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jjfc
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Since: 13.5.04
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
Just a quick note on the chinlocks, he must have been told to do this from above. He had a much better moveset when he fought RVD at the start of the year. Where did that reverse DDT off the ropes go?

When I watched Heat, he had a squash match against Rosey and was still using the chinlocks a lot. There must be a reason they're booking the matches like this.
oldschoolhero
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Since: 2.1.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.68
"The fact that he has had one real contender for his title in the last month tells you alot about JBL's wrestling ability."

Wha?! How is the fact that they can't find anybody for the WWE Champion to wrestle indicative of said champion's wrestling ability? If anything it's a sorry indictment of the writing staff that, despite the character getting good heel heat and Bradshaw coming on in BOUNDs in-ring, they can't come up anything better to do than 'Taker's lame-o walk-out challenge.

"Vince's plan for SummerSlam is to have both heels walk out of Toronto with the belt"

Nowhere have I read that it is concrete that Bradshaw is going over.

"No, the fans want Edge turning heel beating Benoit and Booker T as champ. So far LBJ has been a joke and Orton is headed for a cosmic disaster for nine months."

I must have missed the "Turn Heel And Beat Benoit" chant when Edge came out for that Battle Royale last Monday. And NONE of the fans want Booker a heel champ, because he SUCKS as a heel. The man can't cut a decent promo to save his life, his character is non-existent and his in-ring work hasn't been close to good in well over a year. Booker is a total lost cause, and putting the title on the same guy, the same character that spent twelve months languishing in Raw's midcard would do far more damage than giving it to a totally fresh gimmick on a healthy worker who's willing to learn.



Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
darkmatcher
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Since: 12.2.03
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.58
Fwiw, Orton was nowhere near WWF TV in 2001, I think you mean early 2002. And he does chinlocks because he botches just about every other move he tries aside from his finisher and that bendover backbreaker thing.

Why is that you can bash everyone else with flaws, but find a way to justify any flaw pointed out about Orton? What makes Orton more qualified to hold the title than Jericho, Edge or Christian? His God push? That's about all I can think of. Jericho and Edge have been hot at other points of their career...much hotter and much better and didn't get Orton's push.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Booker is a total lost cause, and putting the title on the same guy, the same character that spent twelve months languishing in Raw's midcard would do far more damage than giving it to a totally fresh gimmick on a healthy worker who's willing to learn.


Because Bradshaw didn't languish around in the mid-cards and as a lame tag wrestler for 9 friggin' years? And who knew that Bradshaw was a healthy worker, as he does about as much in the ring as a cripple could. Once again, guys with MAJOR flaws being justified over others. I don't want to throw out the anti-smark label, but it REALLY seems like you guys are defending these guys just to be Devil's advocates.
JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
I agree with the majority of Mr dMr's post, except I have to run like a girl to the defense of my precious Chris Jericho ...

d: "Jericho's title reign bombed horribly"

Aesthetically, sure, but that's not really his fault. The three shows he had the title on were three of the company's most successful PPVs ever, the '02 Rumble, No Way Out, and Wrestlemania 18, so even if he didn't draw those buyrates, there's not really anything one can point to to say it bombed. The reaction to the title match at Mania, maybe, but again, that goes so far beyond Jericho having the belt.

"Incidentally, when Christian and Jericho headlined RAW the ME segment got shit ratings."

That's not quite fair. That was a weird show that started at like 2.9 for a Shelton Benjamin vs. Triple H match and grew to 3.9 for the main event. The 3.4 overall rating was a huge disappointment, but it was for the overall hyped top-to-bottom show, for whatever reason. Furthermo', you could point to Eugene vs. Kane getting far shittier ratings in a main event too, and I don't think anyone would use it as an indictment of either of their pushes.

"Randy Orton debuted in April 2001. Over three years ago."

It was only 2002, actually. Not that I think there's any need to wait, as 'striking while the iron is hot' (gag) is a lot better than flattening guys out by making them wait.

"It may not all be his fault but he ain't even close to being as popular as Eddie, or HBK were when they held the belt."

I don't think Michaels was all that popular during the specific month he held the belt, pop at MSG for the win notwithstanding. He had that woman's haircut and was giving boring interviews as he was still getting back in the swing of things. The more comfortable he became in a full-time role, the more people got into him as a current weekly character in the here and now instead of a part-time refugee from 1996.





a fan: "Rock was light years ahead of him and to some degree so was Brock when he won the title"

Orton is obviously nowhere near Rock in charisma or interviews when Rock won the title, but he's actually a much better worker than Rocky was at the end of 1998.
Anti_Guy
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Since: 2.2.04
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I just don't think Orton is ready for a nine month title reign.


Who's saying that Orton's going to hold the title for THAT long? Knowing the way HHH works, thats not going to happen.
I can imagine Edge laughing his head off after Orton loses the World Title the day after he won it...

"Smackdown had a great main event heel right in front of them, but as usual Booker T must not have the right look for World Champ, but Hoss JBL does"

JBL's promo's are pretty funny, he trying to appeal to the fans as the 'All American Patriot', even though he did the Hitler salute in Germany. The Bookman... eh...


Once again, let me say this Orton is not Rock. He has none of Rock's skills..."

How many times do people have to say this dammit? We KNOW Orton isn't The Rock. If he had none of The Rock's skills means IMO that he isn't a wrestler.

What is it with you people making these assumptions?

"When I watched Heat, he had a squash match against Rosey and was still using the chinlocks a lot. There must be a reason they're booking the matches like this."

jjfc points out that we can't totally blame Orton's lack of a moveset. Blame it on the people who book the matches. And remember Orton still has lots of time to improve...





(edited by Anti_Guy on 2.8.04 1236)


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Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.31
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    And NONE of the fans want Booker a heel champ, because he SUCKS as a heel. The man can't cut a decent promo to save his life, his character is non-existent and his in-ring work hasn't been close to good in well over a year. Booker is a total lost cause, and putting the title on the same guy, the same character that spent twelve months languishing in Raw's midcard would do far more damage than giving it to a totally fresh gimmick on a healthy worker who's willing to learn.


Speak for yourself, there.

First of all, Booker does not suck as a heel. The week of the brand ďshake-upĒ both Booker and Triple H had matches with Eddie Guerrero, and Bookerís was clearly better. He then had a few good weeks against Hardcore Holly, and got at least two better matches out of him than Brock had. Booker was also excellent when he ditched RVD, and that led to a very good match as well. Now, since the mindless feeding of the Book to ĎTaker, and the idiotic circumstances around that decision, it has admittedly been downhill from there but he was doing quite well. Now if Orton receives no blame for any of his detriments, why does Booker get lambasted?

For what itís worth, Booker was very solid in the 6-Man US title elimination match last week, and the finish was golden. RVD five-stars Cena, Book steals that pin, and then axe-kicks RVD. It was heel gold, and while Iím not claiming Booker came up with the finishing sequence, itís something he has executed well. It does more for me as a fan than ďeveryone came here to see my nipplesĒ and ďI retired Mick Foley, for like, the second time.Ē

What bothers those of us who dislike Orton is that there was never any doubt that this would be the result. WWE looked at him and right then and there it was decided he would be made into a top talent regardless of his performance. Triple H and Flair, according to the Game himself, looked at each other and smiled when they saw Orton as they were looking for people to fill out their concept of the Evolution stable. And then they saw to it that he was pushed and pushed, despite making many, many mistakes. I donít remember them all, but there is at least one sequence a match he fucks up---take the nine-minute undoing of the turnbuckle pad as just the most flagrant example save for the admittedly overstated whiffing of the finisher. And these mess-ups would have been enough to cease altogether or at the very least reasonably delay the inevitable elevation of almost any other wrestler on the planet, like the RVDs, the Jerichoís, the numerous other people who have had their legs cut out from under them for lesser offences than Ortonís.

But Randy Orton was selected for this position. He couldnít be incompetent enough to undo it. That bothers me as a wrestling fan and also as a human being, because not everyone in life has everything handed to them. And not everyone in wrestling has everything handed to them. Some people toil for years, become great at their craft, and never get a chance. Some people, like Bradshaw and apparently Orton soon, get plenty of chances.

My main concern with pushing a guy the way they push Orton is that youíre setting him up to be crap. If your push is guaranteed, a lock, something you canít fuck up on your worst day unless you do something fantastically retarded; why work for constant improvement? No one would. They keep peaking these guys so early and itís just not sound business practise. It didnít work with Brock, it didnít work with Goldberg, all it did was set these guys up to have bad attitudes and make selfish decisions. And they keep doing it, and that worries me as it relates to the future of the business.




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Oliver
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.36
I watched Hogan/Rock at Wrestlemania X-8 today on video, and it reminds me of something: regardless of how lousy a worker someone is, if he is inspired, he can pull off ****+ matches. Such was with Hogan; I've rarely been entertained by his wrestling, but his work with the Rock at WMX-8 was inspired, and fantastic.

Same could be with Orton; I'd be tempted to believe that if he gets a chance to either shine in the spotlight, or gets matches against people he has chemistry with, he could put on some really good matches.

I, for one, look forward to seeing Orton face off against Triple H, and Ric Flair, for that reason. Their on air chemistry is undeniable; and I'd be tempted to believe that their off air chemistry is the same, seeing as though the Evolution stable has been around for as long as it has...even through Orton's and Batista's injuries.

I'll be attending SummerSlam (at a movie theatre in Edmonton) and I'll mark out if Orton wins the title. He's not the best choice for world title holder, but having him as champ offers a world of opportunity.



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Eurotrip; Scooby Doo 2; Shrek 2; The Ladykillers; Spider-Man 2; Anchorman.

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Nowhere have I read that it is concrete that Bradshaw is going over.

There's been a few "news" items that Vince views JBL as a long-term champ. Taker is supposed to be go on to feud w/ Heidenreich after the JBL feud (according to the Observer), so I doubt that'll be a title feud.



JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
HMD: "First of all, Booker does not suck as a heel. The week of the brand ďshake-upĒ both Booker and Triple H had matches with Eddie Guerrero, and Bookerís was clearly better."

I totally agree. I think Booker has had some golden moments since jumping to SD. The Booker/Eddie match was a delight, and I wish I could've seen Booker and Eddie have that bloodbath match in Los Angeles. You obviously have to give tons of credit to Layfield for infinite improvement in all areas, but they've done so so so so so so so much to get him, of all people, over, I'd like to see -- echoing some of the sentiments of your post -- a fraction of that effort given to more deserving guys (read: guys who I like better, but come on).
jjfc
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Since: 13.5.04
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
My main concern with pushing a guy the way they push Orton is that youíre setting him up to be crap. If your push is guaranteed, a lock, something you canít fuck up on your worst day unless you do something fantastically retarded; why work for constant improvement? No one would

But the reality is that Orton has improved dramatically over the past six months, and even JBL's promos have gotten better. Pretty much negating your argument.

The crowds appear to be far more behind Orton than Edge, and that's why he's getting the title shot. And the whole talk about Christian is completely silly. It's remarkable to me how much people's movesets increase when they're out injured. I agree that Jehricho is underpushed (although have we completely forgotten that he botched his finisher for all of 2001), but he really should be a full blown tweener cutting on faces and heels alike to get more over with the fans.
BigSteve
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Since: 23.7.04
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
I'm not sure why people seem to be bashing Orton's work. I mean he is young and that inexperience has caused him to make a few mistakes in the ring, but on the whole he seems to be improving mightily. He hasn't had many high-profile matches, but those that he's had have been far from being bad; they've mostly been very good with a wide range of opponents such as RVD, Shelton Benjamin, and Edge. The WWE needs to be pushing young stars and Orton is as good a choice as anybody. Should someone like Jericho be getting a bigger push? Without a doubt, but that doesn't take away from Orton. Maybe Orton isn't as good as Jericho, but most people aren't, and as much as people may not like it, it doesn't look like guys like RVD, Booker, Jericho, and Christian will ever be given a chance to be true main eventers. I think people ought to be more excited to see a new guy like Orton pushed to the top.
sergeial
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.29
I agree with most of what you just said, jjfc, except I don't think that any plans really changed because of a surprising level of reaction to Orton. You have to remember, HHH is the real focus of the show regardless of who the Champ is. It's the surprising, nay shocking, level of reaction to Eugene that I think caused them to change course and put HHH/Edge on hold in favor of Eugene/HHH.


sergei



"A true champion knows how to deal with adversity."-- Kurt Angle
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.69
My problem with Orton is that those chants are going to go away as soon as he gets it. Crowds are a fical beast, they love you minute, hate you the next. The cool thing now is to cheer for Orton, although they are not huge chants. As soon as he gets the belt and see his work, those chants for Orton will go to Boring. He honestly doesn't have the chops, he is not a monster like Brock, he has no real workrate and honestly he is not that exciting in and out of the ring. He is fairly bland. He has been lucky that HHH used his pull to be his greatest opponett.

I don't think, he has a laundry list of foes to fight him or make him look anymore legit. He has beaten everyone on Raw minus Edge and Benoit. Does that mean Benoit keeps jobbing to this kid while the rest of the faces stay put? If they do kick HHH out then maybe, it could lead somewhere, but they are not planning short term, they are planning long term. I just don't see him being good for business.
fuelinjected
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Since: 12.10.02
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.04
    Originally posted by HMD
    But Randy Orton was selected for this position. He couldnít be incompetent enough to undo it. That bothers me as a wrestling fan and also as a human being, because not everyone in life has everything handed to them. And not everyone in wrestling has everything handed to them. Some people toil for years, become great at their craft, and never get a chance. Some people, like Bradshaw and apparently Orton soon, get plenty of chances.


So why begrudge Randy Orton from the start? He worked his ass off in OVW. He's worked his ass off in WWE and has constantly been improving. He's got an enormous amount of pressure on him because all eyes are on him. Now if in a couple years, he Billy Gunn's his push and isn't trying to improve, that's another thing. But right now, he's just doing what he's told and working hard. What do you want from the guy?

    Originally posted by HMD
    My main concern with pushing a guy the way they push Orton is that youíre setting him up to be crap. If your push is guaranteed, a lock, something you canít fuck up on your worst day unless you do something fantastically retarded; why work for constant improvement? No one would. They keep peaking these guys so early and itís just not sound business practise. It didnít work with Brock, it didnít work with Goldberg, all it did was set these guys up to have bad attitudes and make selfish decisions. And they keep doing it, and that worries me as it relates to the future of the business.


That's a load of crap, seriously. If you have a passion for something, you'll work as hard at it for $1 or $1 million dollars. Goldberg didn't want to be a wrestler. He didn't watch wrestling. He just got tapped in a gym and fed visions that he could make a lot of money. He was a broke down failed football player who needed money and he made money. So much money that he waited until WWE gave him the money and limited dates he wanted.

Brock Lesnar never wanted to be a pro-wrestler until he saw Kurt Angle do it. Lesnar got into it and busted his ass to be as good as could possibly be. Lesnar was bumping over the top rope for fucking worthless midcarders because he wanted to be the best. But in his heart, he wanted to be a football player more then a wrestler. So much that he was willing to trade a $1.5 million dollar per year gurantee for POSSIBLY a $80,000 practice squad salary for the Vikings. How was WWE supposed to know that Lesnar really wanted to be a football player? All they saw was a guy give everything he had to be the best he could be and prove himself worthy of their big push.

Randy Orton became a wrestler because he wanted to and all he's done since he's started is work as hard as he can. He's improved so much in the past year and just by watching him in the ring, you can tell he's out there trying to do his best. That's all that we can really ask of him. So bashing him for getting a push is just wrong and making judgments about his character when you know nothing about him is even worse. If you were to judge him by his actions, he's done nothing but improve and work as hard as he can in the ring.

Maybe he's not ready, maybe it'd be nice to see Jericho get a run at the top but it's easier to get someone over the first time then 4 years too late.



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geemoney
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
      Originally posted by HMD
      But Randy Orton was selected for this position. He couldnít be incompetent enough to undo it. That bothers me as a wrestling fan and also as a human being, because not everyone in life has everything handed to them. And not everyone in wrestling has everything handed to them. Some people toil for years, become great at their craft, and never get a chance. Some people, like Bradshaw and apparently Orton soon, get plenty of chances.


    So why begrudge Randy Orton from the start? He worked his ass off in OVW. He's worked his ass off in WWE and has constantly been improving. He's got an enormous amount of pressure on him because all eyes are on him. Now if in a couple years, he Billy Gunn's his push and isn't trying to improve, that's another thing. But right now, he's just doing what he's told and working hard. What do you want from the guy?

      Originally posted by HMD
      My main concern with pushing a guy the way they push Orton is that youíre setting him up to be crap. If your push is guaranteed, a lock, something you canít fuck up on your worst day unless you do something fantastically retarded; why work for constant improvement? No one would. They keep peaking these guys so early and itís just not sound business practise. It didnít work with Brock, it didnít work with Goldberg, all it did was set these guys up to have bad attitudes and make selfish decisions. And they keep doing it, and that worries me as it relates to the future of the business.


    That's a load of crap, seriously. If you have a passion for something, you'll work as hard at it for $1 or $1 million dollars. Goldberg didn't want to be a wrestler. He didn't watch wrestling. He just got tapped in a gym and fed visions that he could make a lot of money. He was a broke down failed football player who needed money and he made money. So much money that he waited until WWE gave him the money and limited dates he wanted.

    Brock Lesnar never wanted to be a pro-wrestler until he saw Kurt Angle do it. Lesnar got into it and busted his ass to be as good as could possibly be. Lesnar was bumping over the top rope for fucking worthless midcarders because he wanted to be the best. But in his heart, he wanted to be a football player more then a wrestler. So much that he was willing to trade a $1.5 million dollar per year gurantee for POSSIBLY a $80,000 practice squad salary for the Vikings. How was WWE supposed to know that Lesnar really wanted to be a football player? All they saw was a guy give everything he had to be the best he could be and prove himself worthy of their big push.

    Randy Orton became a wrestler because he wanted to and all he's done since he's started is work as hard as he can. He's improved so much in the past year and just by watching him in the ring, you can tell he's out there trying to do his best. That's all that we can really ask of him. So bashing him for getting a push is just wrong and making judgments about his character when you know nothing about him is even worse. If you were to judge him by his actions, he's done nothing but improve and work as hard as he can in the ring.

    Maybe he's not ready, maybe it'd be nice to see Jericho get a run at the top but it's easier to get someone over the first time then 4 years too late.

Don't forget- Orton grew up in the business, something that Lesnar and Goldberg didn't. Wrestling is all Orton knows.



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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.31
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    So why begrudge Randy Orton from the start? He worked his ass off in OVW. He's worked his ass off in WWE and has constantly been improving.


I didn't begrudge him from the start. His start was two some-odd years ago, not when he beat Foley. And from that time I found Orton boring and limited.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    He's got an enormous amount of pressure on him because all eyes are on him.


Then he doesn't respond well to pressure because he makes a lot of mistakes. So all I'm saying is a slower, more reserved push gives him time to grow into the role.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Now if in a couple years, he Billy Gunn's his push and isn't trying to improve, that's another thing. But right now, he's just doing what he's told and working hard.


So I have to wait two years to say, this guy bores me?

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    What do you want from the guy?


Entertainment, and he's not delivering.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    If you have a passion for something, you'll work as hard at it for $1 or $1 million dollars.


I disagree. People are more inclined to work hard with incentives built in. My point is that Orton walked in with a guaranteed incentive whereas most have to earn it, which makes me inclined to support others over him.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Goldberg didn't want to be a wrestler. He didn't watch wrestling. He just got tapped in a gym and fed visions that he could make a lot of money. He was a broke down failed football player who needed money and he made money. So much money that he waited until WWE gave him the money and limited dates he wanted.


And I believe that while Goldberg would never have fallen in love with wrestling, not pushing him to the moon would have kept him around longer and given him something to shoot for, and would have made him a better, more well-rounded performer. Without the streak, he would never have gotten that over, never drawn that money, and you could keep him around because at the very least he's a man with a drive to succeed. So make him earn it.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Brock Lesnar never wanted to be a pro-wrestler until he saw Kurt Angle do it. Lesnar got into it and busted his ass to be as good as could possibly be. Lesnar was bumping over the top rope for fucking worthless midcarders because he wanted to be the best.


Okay, Brock Lesnar was the object of a bidding war. Let's not glamourize him or his role. He has openly said he got in the business to get rich. And those "fucking worthless midcarders" helped make Brock Lesnar a star, and without them he wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as over. He also didn't show much regard for the stars who also busted their asses, longer and harder than he did I might add, to make him a star as well. Let us not forget Hogan, Rocky, Angle and Taker doing everything they could to protect and carry this guy.

Relating this to Orton, my point is that pushing Brock immediately blew up in their faces because like most guys who get the key to city without drawing a dime or having a single good match, he made his money and bailed out first chance he got. And he eventually did have good matches, several of them, but that had nothing to do with a love of the business and everything to do with his being a uniquely talented athlete. Of course they didn't know Brock wanted to play football, but if he hadn't made it in wrestling so quickly and if he hadn't been burned out in every role, he might still be here.

Remember, before his "dream" of playing football got any pub, it was the rumours of his intense dissatisfaction with the handling of his character. He also cited the fact that he had "already been Champion three times" as a reason his interest in wrestling was dwindling. His comments have suggested his instant Christ push was a mistake.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Randy Orton became a wrestler because he wanted to...


You have no idea what his motivations are/were. Pressure from parents, easy way to get laid, who knows. I don't even see why you brought this up as you can't prove it and I didn't make any point of his motivations anyway.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    So bashing him for getting a push is just wrong and making judgments about his character when you know nothing about him is even worse.


I didn't judge his character whatsoever. Don't confuse what I wrote with what you read into it. And you praised his character without knowing him any better than I do. The only fact we have that reflect upon his character is his little draft-dodging adventure, but I know you pro-Orton people are real sensitive about that so I better not say too much about it. And I haven't brought that up recently as a reason not to push him.

I just don't think he's ready. I can't remember anyone less interesting or more annoying, more likely to make me turn the channel than Randy Orton. Brock had the freak factor, Goldberg had a couple cool moves and great physical presence, Hogan/Austin/Rock all drew shitloads of money, Bret/Shawn/and Hunter for one year were good in the ring, and Orton is none of these things. That was my point.

    Originally posted by jjfc
    But the reality is that Orton has improved dramatically over the past six months, and even JBL's promos have gotten better. Pretty much negating your argument.


It's not the reality, it's your take. The spots he used to mess up have been replaced by rest-holds, blame Orton or management, point is it bores me. His interviews are the same as always. He repeats stuff a lot, at a louder volume. His improvement has been minimal at best. He has gotten more over, but just about everyone who has been pushed this hard and this long has gotten over.

Bradshaw hasn't gotten better on the mic. He was never bad on the mic, but he never had anything to sink his teeth into before. Before he had a one-dimensional "fight and drink" gimmick, there wasn't much for him to say outside of deep-throating his political views into out gullets as rightfully American. He's not doing anything now he couldn't have done years ago when he was Justin "Hawk", and he hasn't gotten any better since then.

Like JM said, when they put this much time into the Ortons and Bradshaws, the fact that they exhibit competence is hardly something to praise. And the fact that they get over should be a given. But it's frustrating that no one I find entertaining gets any support.







(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 3.8.04 0047)


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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Let us not forget Hogan, Rocky, Angle and Taker doing everything they could to protect and carry this guy.

I'll give you Rock & Angle helping Brock, but not Hogan or Taker. Hogan did the job under the misguided notion tha he'd get the job back at a later time, not out of the goodness of his heart. And Taker pulled the "not feeling it" crap before doing the job in the cage. But Taker was also booked to look pretty strong against Brock after that (beating Show & Hogan in a handicap match, the Biker Chain match), and was rumored to be going over Brock post-WMXX.

As for carrying Brock, I dunno, he held his own in the matches against these guys.



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