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The W - Hockey - Once and for all.......the greatest of all time. (Page 2)
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Socks
Landjager








Since: 25.6.02
From: Ottawa

Since last post: 790 days
Last activity: 402 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.21

    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Well, I always compare the "greatest" to two of the best players I've witnessed: Theoren Fleury & Jarome Iginla. Fleury was never supposed to be able to play in the NHL. He was too damned small. But the Flames scouts took a chance on him and drafted him, and he helped them win a Cup in '89. Sure, then he got all into the drugs and whatnot and left the team and badmouthed the city. But hey, nobody's perfect.

    On the other hand, Iginla was just a swell trade. He can fight, he can score. I always thought that it made more sense to have a scorer not fight, and that's what they did in Edmonton. They loaded up the team with guys whose sole purpose was to protect Gretzky. Why? Because he was the best ever.

    And you should've heard the heel heat he got in the Saddledome every damned time he came here.



If Fleury and Iginla are the best you have ever seen, then I feel terribly sorry for you.

On with the choices...

We cannot compare Howe to Mario or Gretzky....completely different time and a completely different league. Howe was great...for his time.

I would put Gretzky on top of the list for many reasons. Points per game, assists, Stanley Cups etc.

I would put Mario on the bottom of the list for one reason...he whines way to much. For a man his size, he complains way to much. Gretzky had to fight through just as much clutching and grabbing as Mario has. Number 99 still put the points on the board, and didn't have to whine to get the rules changed to do it.

Mario simply is a cry-baby and I would be happy if he just went away.

We will never see the likes of a Gretzky or a Lemieux ever again. The league has changed and will continue to change. The best of all time will have to be decided by which era they played in. And in this league now, Forsberg and Danny Heatley are the players that are on top of the heap.







"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon.
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Chris Rock
Omar Padilla
Chourico








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 807 days
Last activity: 806 days
#22 Posted on
Looks like Messier will play as long as it takes to get past Howe for second place in the all time scoring list.
dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 12 min.
#23 Posted on
    Originally posted by Bullitt
    As a fan, I've always preferred Mario...but, as has been said, there were/are too many "what ifs" to classify him as the greatest.

    This arguement rages on every now and then, but I've always enjoyed Keith Olbermann's take on it...paraphrased from "The Big Show" book from 1997.

    "Gordie Howe scored over 1000 goals lifetime and the first 600-plus were in a six-team league. This meant that every night, Howe was going up against one of the six best goalies in the world...against four of the twenty-four best defemsemen in the world...against one of the six best teams in the world. There were one or two seasons in the 50s when every goalie Howe scored on went to the Hall of Fame.



But were they the best goalies? where they the best defenders? What about international players? Guys that weren't scouted due to the more amateur-ish set up of the league and systems?
He only had to prepare against five teams, knew their ins and their outs and just do his magic to get past them.
Post-expansion (and especially from the 80s on) you had to eal with more goaltenders, with different styles, teams playing different systems, more player rotations (and thus fresher defenders) and what not.

This "who is the best"argumentwill probably never be decided upon, and it shouldn't..it's too much fun.
Howe is an old school God, Gretz new school, Orr changed the game about as much as they did, and there is a bunch of others that cannot be considered to be up to their level, but can stand in their shadows at least (e.g. Francis, Messier imo, and a few others.)

As for Messier, its only 10 points or so, right? Between him and Howe. Should be interesting to see what he does upcoming season.

(edited by dMp on 19.8.03 1349)


*sigh* Why bother?
Chico Santana
Boudin rouge








Since: 2.7.02
From: Jaaaaamacia Mon, No Problem.

Since last post: 4022 days
Last activity: 4020 days
#24 Posted on

    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    br>
    Finally, Bobby Orr. Bobby Orr was a great player no doubt and a few years before my time, but it seems to me he gets a lot of run because of the time he played. He was revolutionary, no doubt. But if a Ray Bourque or a Paul Coffey comes along 15 years earlier, we might well be having the same discussion about one of them. Without diminishing what Orr accomplished, I think he stands out more in a historical sense because he stood out more in his time as a unique player.



Tell me you did not just say that! Bobby Orr was a better skater by far. In their primes Orr would have skated circles around them, before his knees went I would put him and Gretzky in the same breath when it comes to greatest skaters. I agree that if Coffey or Bourque came along earlier they would have a greater place in the game, but neither could touch upon the Orr level of play.



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vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3001 days
Last activity: 215 days
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Chico Santana

      Originally posted by BigVitoMark
      br>
      Finally, Bobby Orr. Bobby Orr was a great player no doubt and a few years before my time, but it seems to me he gets a lot of run because of the time he played. He was revolutionary, no doubt. But if a Ray Bourque or a Paul Coffey comes along 15 years earlier, we might well be having the same discussion about one of them. Without diminishing what Orr accomplished, I think he stands out more in a historical sense because he stood out more in his time as a unique player.



    Tell me you did not just say that! Bobby Orr was a better skater by far. In their primes Orr would have skated circles around them, before his knees went I would put him and Gretzky in the same breath when it comes to greatest skaters. I agree that if Coffey or Bourque came along earlier they would have a greater place in the game, but neither could touch upon the Orr level of play.



And did Coffey ever NOT have a strong supporting cast in his prime? He played with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and Glenn Anderson in Edmonton, then with Mario and Jagr in Pittsburgh, then with Gretzky and Kurri (again) in LA, then with Yzerman, Federov, Primeau and Dino in Detroit. He almost couldn't help but put up gaudy stats.




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fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3230 days
Last activity: 3230 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
I know a lot of people go against Gretzky because he's the one dubbed as the greatest of all-time and people like to buck the trend or whatever.

Sometimes it's warranted but Wayne Gretzky was simply that great. I'd be glued to the TV watching him play because he'd do things that others could only dream of. How many times would he make those impossible passes look effortless?

His move to LA also did more for the game of hockey and the NHL in the United States then anyone or anything else. And you couldn't meet a classier, more humble guy.
dunkndollaz
Banger








Since: 3.1.02
From: Northern NJ

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 2 days
#27 Posted on
already said by many (and more eloquently too) but different players in different eras - in today's game, Gordie Howe would be the prototypical power forward and would light the lamp and deliver big hits night in and night out - in today's game, Bobby Orr would have been able to take advantage of the lesser competition brought about by the dilution of talent that comes with expansion - his so-so defensive play would be covered up - and also the incredible advances in medical technology - his knees would have been allowed to continue to make him one of the most exciting offensive players to play the game - in the days of the Original Six, Gretzky would have been a target that would get hit but would also produce - in the days of the Original Six, Mario would have been considered soft for his size despite his offensive skills - Lindros would be and is punch drunk in any era.......

I saw them all play and I have to pick Gordie



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CJP
Medisterpoelse








Since: 27.8.03
From: USA

Since last post: 4042 days
Last activity: 4042 days
#28 Posted on
Howe, Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux - in that order. Howe - as already stated, playing in time when dilution was only a word for booze. Also, toughness there. Gretzky - owns the record books, but the supporting cast that Wayne had in Edmonton helped him out. And someone else mentioned that Wayne fought through same clutching and grabbing - that's a joke - Semenko or another of the Oiler's goons would have put a stop to that quickly - if you've seen Gretzky early and mid-career, nobody dared touch him. Orr - revolutionized position - also could play it tough. However, not greatest defensive player, and another "what if?". Lemieux - probably could be argued as most talented player ever (have you ever seen another player embarrass Bourque like he was journeyman D?) - another "what if?" Too much taking time off, defensive lack of effort - especially early in career, and whining cost him. Except for SC years, supporting cast not really there (couple of players - not like Gretzky's).
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 166 days
Last activity: 166 days
#29 Posted on
I have no idea who Howe was playing with, but wouldn't Howe be going out every night with one of the six best teams behind him? So I can't see how Gretzky's supporting cast could be much of a difference maker there.

-Jag



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CJP
Medisterpoelse








Since: 27.8.03
From: USA

Since last post: 4042 days
Last activity: 4042 days
#30 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I have no idea who Howe was playing with, but wouldn't Howe be going out every night with one of the six best teams behind him? So I can't see how Gretzky's supporting cast could be much of a difference maker there.

    -Jag



But remember that while Howe probably played with sufficiently talented players, he played against same level of sufficiently talented players. The Oilers were significantly dominant - talent-wise - compared to most of remainder of league. Supporting cast does make difference in the two eras.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 46 min.
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Keep in mind that the 'sufficiently talented' players still differed from team to team. Despite the smaller league, shitty teams still existed...just ask all of those Rangers, Bruins and Blackhawks teams that went years without sniffing the Cup.



"When this bogus term alternative rock was being thrown at every '70s retro rehash folk group, we were challenging people to new sonic ideas. If some little snotty anarchist with an Apple Mac and an attitude thinks he invented dance music and the big rock group is coming into his territory, [that's] ridiculous." - Bono, 1997
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I don't appreciate the Habs knocking the Caps out of contention, but man, what a great run. The Caps put huge pressure on them, but the Habs answered tit for tat--very impressive. I would be a very very nervous 1 seed.
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