The W
Views: 100663826
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Calendar | Color chart | Log in for more!
20.11.14 1519
The W - Current Events & Politics - Nuclear Double Standards
This thread has 11 referrals leading to it
Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1(1804 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (20 total)
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 3 days
AIM:  
#1 Posted on
From this Yahoo article on Iran (story.news.yahoo.com) having a date of Oct. 31 being set by the IAEA under US pressure to show they are not building a nuclear program, comes an issue which I think is a good example of how we can be easily and somewhat fairly perceived to not be an honest broker in the Middle East.

Salehi also lashed out at Israel. "Among those who have pursued and produced nuclear weapons outside The Five (official nuclear weapons states), Israel gets way with murder. It is pampered instead of being chastised."


Israel, like India and Pakistan, has never signed the NPT. It has also never acknowledged having nuclear weapons, though non-proliferation experts say no one doubts Israel has them. The U.S., China, Britain, France and Russia are "The Five."


The guy is right. Israel is a known nuclear weapon having nation, yet we have never said single word #1 about this issue in front of the UN. Why?




Coming to Chicago Nov. 12...I am SO there! - Brenda Weiler

blogforamerica.com
Promote this thread!
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1297 days
Last activity: 1094 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Israel not sponsoring terrorism comes to mind, but it is kind of silly to not try to coerce Israel into being a nuclear power....of course, Israel has never admitted to having such a weapon.



Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 12 hours
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Israel's nukes are more of a defensive strategy. The message is "Even if all of you guys (Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, etc.) team up against us, we'll sure as hell take you down with us." Israel would in all likelihood never actually use their nukes unless provoked, since they're smart enough to know that any country using a nuke without US consent will automatically be on the shit list.

The exception, of course, is North Korea, since Jong-Il is actually crazy enough to think he can conquer the world or some such nonsense.



"When this bogus term alternative rock was being thrown at every '70s retro rehash folk group, we were challenging people to new sonic ideas. If some little snotty anarchist with an Apple Mac and an attitude thinks he invented dance music and the big rock group is coming into his territory, [that's] ridiculous." - Bono, 1997
Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

Since last post: 3861 days
Last activity: 2927 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Israel is surrounded by millions of savages that want to wipe them into the sea. That's why.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 3 days
AIM:  
#5 Posted on
    Originally posted by Michrome
    Israel is surrounded by millions of savages that want to wipe them into the sea. That's why.

So in other words we are against the NPT being breached, unless they have a really good excuse?



Coming to Chicago Nov. 12...I am SO there! - Brenda Weiler

blogforamerica.com
Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

Since last post: 3861 days
Last activity: 2927 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Yep, that's basically it. We've seen repeated wars launched on Israel, and the only reason we don't still see these wars is because of Israel's arsenal.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2858 days
Last activity: 2701 days
AIM:  
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by spf2119
      Originally posted by Michrome
      Israel is surrounded by millions of savages that want to wipe them into the sea. That's why.

    So in other words we are against the NPT being breached, unless they have a really good excuse?


That's fine rhetoric, but it has no bearing on reality. And the reality is more or less as Michrome has stated it. You need only look at the history of Israel from the day it was founded until ten minutes ago. Folks want them dead. Folks who vastly outnumber them.

Besides which, I think the NPT is aimed more at dangerous lunatics than threatened democracies. That, and they never signed the NPT, as has been stated.



Johnny Cash
1932-2003
antizeus
Linguica








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 4058 days
Last activity: 4058 days
#8 Posted on
Don't forget that Israel is one of the pillars of US strategy in the Middle East. Iran used to be another pillar until its people got sick of being imprisoned and tortured by the US-installed Shah and had a revolution (this has a lot to do with the past US support for Saddam Hussein, who fought a bloody war against Iran). Saudi Arabia is another pillar, but the partnership between the royal family and the Wahabi sect seems to be falling apart, making the situation unstable (Wolfowitz cited this as one of the main reasons for the conquest of Iraq -- get the troops out of there).

Anyway, Israel provides the US government with a very useful ally in a very important region. This lets Israel get away with murder (literally and figuratively). Take a look at all the UN resolutions which boil down to US-and-Israel vs. the rest of the world (in the case of the General Assembly) or get vetoed by the US (in the case of the Security Council).

(ed: changed a word)

(edited by antizeus on 13.9.03 1101)


Check to see if this page is HTML Compliant.
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 2054 days
Last activity: 1707 days
#9 Posted on
Israel is not the country that is saying,"No Arabs between me and the sea."
Israel has done a lot of things wrong. I personnally feel that the UK founding Israel was wrong. But that happened more than 50 years ago.
Israel thinks it's their land. Also Israel knows that if they gave up and moved to the US, Canada, or Australia they would never be safe from terrorists.
The situation is not good but it is there. If all countries learned to talk to each other and come to a fair agreement then things would be better. But both sides more or less want as much as they can get. Israel just has a lot less to bargain with.



Marge I am just trying to get into heaven not run for Jesus.
antizeus
Linguica








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 4058 days
Last activity: 4058 days
#10 Posted on
There are plenty of crazies on both sides. People in the US tend not to hear about those on the Israeli side, as there is a noticible pro-Israel slant in the mainstream US media.

Here's a news story from, interestingly enough, USA Today. (while the pro-Israel slant exists, it's not as ubiquitous as many tend to believe.)


Israeli extremists take revenge on Palestinians

By Jack Kelley, USA TODAY

HEBRON, West Bank After a quick prayer, Avi Shapiro and 12 other Jewish settlers put on their religious skullcaps, grabbed their semi-automatic rifles and headed toward Highway 60. There, they pushed boulders, stretched barbed wire and set tires afire to form a barricade that, they said, would stop even the biggest of Palestinian taxis. Then they waited for a vehicle to arrive. As they crouched in a ditch beside the road, Shapiro, the leader of the group, gave the settlers orders: Surround any taxi, "open fire" and kill as many of the "blood-sucking Arab" passengers as possible. "We are doing what (Israeli Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon promised but has failed to do: drive these sons of Arab whores from the land of Israel," said Shapiro, 42, who moved here with his wife and four children three years ago from Brooklyn. "If he won't get rid of the Muslim filth, then we will."


The whole situation sucks, and I don't see a way out.



Check to see if this page is HTML Compliant.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2858 days
Last activity: 2701 days
AIM:  
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Well... at least Mr. Shapiro decided to leave the US before going completely nuts.



Johnny Cash
1932-2003
-proletarian-
Chipolata








Since: 29.4.03

Since last post: 4084 days
Last activity: 4083 days
#12 Posted on
    Originally posted by Michrome
    Israel is surrounded by millions of savages that want to wipe them into the sea. That's why.



Palestinians commit acts of terror by blowing themselves up. Israelis commit acts of terror using tanks, guns and helicopter gunships.

At the end of the day people end up dead. The process is irrelevant. Is one any worse than the other?
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 2054 days
Last activity: 1707 days
#13 Posted on
Yes the Palestenians are somewhat worse. True Israel has almost all of the advantages and is very sloppy. Israel really should stop using assasination as it's major "political" solution. Israel should try to come to a fair political agreement.
But there is a big difference between killing 3 Hamas terrorists and 7 civilains with "collateral damage" and blowing up a bus with nothing but civilains. There is a big difference between sniping a dentist who probably supports Hamas and blowing up a fucking icecream parlor on a hot day to kill as many children as possible.
Far too many of the Palestenian terrorists groups make no attempt to kill Israeli soldiers or at least govt. employees. They specificly try to kill women and children.




Marge I am just trying to get into heaven not run for Jesus.
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3777 days
Last activity: 3246 days
AIM:  
#14 Posted on
    Originally posted by Dahak
    There is a big difference between sniping a dentist who probably supports Hamas and blowing up a fucking icecream parlor on a hot day to kill as many children as possible.


One would think that the "good guys" would make an effort to remove the "probably" from that sentence before sending in the snipers.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

Since last post: 3861 days
Last activity: 2927 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Of course there's a difference between the two. Israel would give land up in an instant if it meant that their citizens would no longer get blown up. It all comes down to the fact that Palestinian militants want ALL of Israel, and will not stop until they have it. You can't have peace when only one side wants it.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 227 days
Last activity: 28 days
#16 Posted on
When has Israel ever given up land? This is a serious question. As far as I know, Israel has only continued to expand their settlements in the Occupied Territories, and haven't made any moves to give those settlements up.

-Jag



Cybernetic Robotic Zombie
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 30 days
Last activity: 17 hours
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
How about the Sinai peninsula in the 70s, in exchange for Peace with Egypt? And thiswas by a right-wing, hawkish government. And the only reason they still have Gaza is because Egypt wouldn't take it back then (hey, I don't blame them).

It is very unfortunate that a small minority of settlers are thwarting what the majority of Israelis want. The majority of Israelis would give up the settlements even without a comprehensive peace deal, because settlements cost a lot of money, and keep the border from being completely sealed.

There are plenty of crazies on both sides. People in the US tend not to hear about those on the Israeli side, as there is a noticible pro-Israel slant in the mainstream US media.

Here's a news story from, interestingly enough, USA Today. (while the pro-Israel slant exists, it's not as ubiquitous as many tend to believe.)



Israeli extremists take revenge on Palestinians

By Jack Kelley, USA TODAY

HEBRON, West Bank After a quick prayer, Avi Shapiro and 12 other Jewish settlers put on their religious skullcaps, grabbed their semi-automatic rifles and headed toward Highway 60. There, they pushed boulders, stretched barbed wire and set tires afire to form a barricade that, they said, would stop even the biggest of Palestinian taxis. Then they waited for a vehicle to arrive. As they crouched in a ditch beside the road, Shapiro, the leader of the group, gave the settlers orders: Surround any taxi, "open fire" and kill as many of the "blood-sucking Arab" passengers as possible. "We are doing what (Israeli Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon promised but has failed to do: drive these sons of Arab whores from the land of Israel," said Shapiro, 42, who moved here with his wife and four children three years ago from Brooklyn. "If he won't get rid of the Muslim filth, then we will."


Of course there are crazies on both sides. The difference is in a couple of other passages from the article you left out:

''I can't believe we are risking our lives to defend these fanatics,'' says
Sgt. Avi Alamm, 28, as he watches a settler boy, dressed as the late
Goldstein, walked by with an Israeli flag. Goldstein, who gunned down the 29
Muslims, is revered among some settlers as a prophet. They encourage their
children to dress like him on occasion. ''The people make me ashamed to be a
Jew,'' Alamm says.

Now, many Israelis are calling on the government to dismantle extremist
settlements such as the one here.

''The Jewish settlement in Hebron is a major nuisance, and the lawless
behavior by Jews there in recent days leads to one conclusion,'' the Israeli
newspaper Ha'aretz recently editorialized. ''Hebron must be evacuated.''


and

The almost daily attacks have been condemned by nearly all Israelis,
including most settlers
. Politicians, who fear the extremists will spoil
Israel's attempt to portray itself as the victim rather than the aggressor
in this conflict, have been the most vocal.

''These Jewish terrorists are criminals,'' Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon
Peres says. ''They've gone too far.'' Yet, the attacks are expected to
increase, Israeli officials say. A group of Jewish vigilantes who possess
bomb-making materials has formed in Hebron, the officials say.


You can find the whole article [a href=http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/pfvs/2002II/msg00065.html]here, among other places.

Everyone has extremists and crazies. The difference is in how the mainstream responds to them. Once Hamas' attacks are condemed by nearly all Palestinians, instead there being a debate about whether blowing up 4-year-olds constitutes "resistance" or not, maybe they'll be hope.

The United States has to be pro-Israel, because the rest of the world is rabidly anti-Israel. The reason why there are so many U.N. resolutions that the U.S. has to veto is because every other U.N. resolution is about Israel. You think this is because Israel has worse human rights violations than Uzbekistan, or Myanmar, or Saudi Arabia, or dozens, if not hundreds, of other countries? Of course not. Israel is singled out by most of the rest of world for condemnation, and recently (post 1967, before then Israel was a darling of Europe and the left) the United States is the only country that is remotely impartial.

As far as the bomb goes, look at how France and China got the bomb. They never signed the non-proliferation treaty until after they got it, which in both cases was well after the U.S., Britain, and the Soviets, but it wasn't treated as a big deal. Look at Pakistan (a Muslim country) and India, which were in a similar situation as Israel at about the same time - everyone knew they had it, but they never admitted it - and were treated pretty much the same as Israel, i.e., while it was officially condemned of course, it was not made that big a deal over.

What is the common thread with these countries? Not government, Commie China, socialist democratic India, France and Israel, military dictatorship Pakistan. Not religion, as all five of those countries have different predominant religions. Not sphere of influence, as India was part of the Soviet sphere, Pakistan and Israel part of the U.S. sphere (at the time), and France and China their own thing. What there was in common is that the people in charge of the bomb were not crazy motherfuckers who would actually use it. In all cases it was either for deterrent purposes, or a way of raising a countries international profile, or both. North Korea, Iraq, and Iran do not fit that catagory (although Iran might someday I believe). In the case of India/Pakistan, and Israel, it also had the added bonus preventing full-out wars. Talk as much shit as you want about Israel, nobody thinks they're going to nuke Mecca anytime soon, while the image of a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv is a distinct possibility if the wrong people or government get nuclear technology.

If, say, Argentina or Australia, or even a mainly muslim country like Turkey or Morocco had a nuclear program, there would not be a big uproar. And regardless of all of that, seeing a liberal democracy (with all the problems it has) like Israel as on par with a Theocracy or Military Junta like the rest of the countries in that region that want the bomb is ridiculous. It's like saying "we let that asshole Joe down the block have a gun, but not Charles Manson. Isn't that a double standard?"



"I'm sorry, I didn't think I was going to talk about 'man on dog' with a United States Senator. It's sort of freaking me out."


Associated Press interview with Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), 04-07-2003.
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 2054 days
Last activity: 1707 days
#18 Posted on
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
      Originally posted by Dahak
      There is a big difference between sniping a dentist who probably supports Hamas and blowing up a fucking icecream parlor on a hot day to kill as many children as possible.


    One would think that the "good guys" would make an effort to remove the "probably" from that sentence before sending in the snipers.


Yes which is why I said," that the Palestinians are somewhat worse and the Israel needs to stop using assanination as it's major political solution."
Nowhere in the world is there "goodguys". There are badguys though.



Marge I am just trying to get into heaven not run for Jesus.
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3777 days
Last activity: 3246 days
AIM:  
#19 Posted on
    Originally posted by Dahak
    Yes which is why I said," that the Palestinians are somewhat worse and the Israel needs to stop using assanination as it's major political solution."
    Nowhere in the world is there "goodguys". There are badguys though.


See, that's the problem. We are, ostensibly, the "good guys", or so we want everyone to believe. Our firm backing of a nation, ANY nation, that's willing to use tactics like that makes us look like fools... or hypocrites.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 227 days
Last activity: 28 days
#20 Posted on
Thanks for the heads-up Moe. I was pretty sure that Israel had at least made motions at some point to leave the settlements, but I hadn't found anything that said so.

Also, on a sidenote, I don't trust India and Pakistan not to nuke each other. I don't know any Pakistani's (though I do have a friend in the Foreign Service who's over there right now... I should talk to her) personally, but I know a lot of Indians. From their opinions of their government, and the opinions of the few extremists I've met, I'm not totally sure either side wouldn't cross that line given provocation.

Hopefully, neither side will be crazy enough to provoke the other.

-Jag



Cybernetic Robotic Zombie
Pages: 1Thread ahead: Sweden Says No To Euro
Next thread: Where Have They Gone?: Cynthia McKinney
Previous thread: 9/9 Debate Thoughts
(1804 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
Republican or Democrat, the NRA will hound you out of office if you fail to toe the 'absolute gun freedom' line, so it's no longer a political issue.
The W - Current Events & Politics - Nuclear Double StandardsRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim

This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.147 seconds.