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The W - Random - Now I know I really really hate ultimate marvel...comic spoilers whatever...
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The Vile1
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Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 1822 days
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#1 Posted on
After reading through the latest issue of Ultimate X-men, it seemed to just reinforce the most why its wrong by royally screwing with my favorite character, Wolverine. in the latest issue Wolverine showed his true colors and actually grabbed cyclops but then dropped him to his doom, don't worry he's alive and got picked up by magneto for medical attention. However, the actions of Wolverine couldn't piss me off more. These aren't the x-men. Wolverine isn't an evil bastard. The beast isn't a dumb pervert. Colossus isn't gay. Jean Grey and Storm aren't whiney brats. The HULK does NOT eat people. Call what wolverine did realistic or some bullshit like that, but the real wolverine would never do any such thing. Anyone remember the x-men cartoon from the '90's? They nailed wolverine. In one of the earlier episodes Jean and Cyclops were kidnapped by the Morlocks. Wolverine found an injured cyclops hidden, there was no one else there. He thought about leaving him there or killing him, no one would ever know. But then he said, "If there's one thing I hate, it's seeing Jean cry." THAT's wolverine. He's a tough asshole, but when it gets down to it he knows right and wrong and would never intentionally hurt someone he loves especially Jean. Logan's love for Jean is so strong is that he'd do anything to make her happy even if it meant he couldn't be with her.

However, this issue pretty much symbolizes what is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. These characters are not role models, or even flawed REALISTIC humans, they are just vengeful preening assholes like many Hollywood celebrities, they are twisted fucks that are worse than the villains they fight that can't set aside their petty differences like who should play them in a damn movie. Its not realistic its annoying and lame, maybe if Mark Millar should stop thinking of stupid celebrity jokes and double entendres and actually try and figure out what makes these characters tick, re-invent, re-vitalize them, whatever, but what's the point if you totally destroy everything that the characters are and what makes them appealing? To me ultimate marvel is the comic book equivalent of reality TV...popular trash.



"I am many things Kal-El, but here I am god."
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Since: 26.7.02
From: Sioux Falls, SD

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#2 Posted on
Amen!



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Cerebus
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Since: 17.11.02

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74
As much as I WANT to say you are right and the Ultimate line is utter shit... I can't. As much as it may piss me off, I rather enjoy what they are doing with this.

I don't remember seeing ANYTHING saying the ultimate universe would be 'kid friendly', all they said was that it would be more 'accessable' to newer readers, which by all accounts, it is. They've thrown out the history and redone everything in a way where ANYONE can pick up an issue and jump right in the story without having to know the history of the characters... the history hasn't been written yet.

You mention the X-Men cartoon from FOX, saying that is how the characters should act. Well, YES, that is how the marvel universe characters act, but you are forgetting that THIS is not THAT universe. Where as the original 'MU' is the traditional, everything as it should be, bland characters with no more room for development; the 'UU' has just started, these characters are fresh, young, and not tied down to past events that shape who and what they are.

Wolverine isn't evil, he looking out for himself, like ANYONE would do. Beast is a dumb pervert, it's character development, I'm sure SOMETHINGS gonna happen to change that, just you watch. Cyclops is gay, big deal; are you a gay basher or something? There ARE gays in the world, you know. Jean and Storm aren't whinet brats, uh, last time I checked, MOST teens are whiney brats, why should THEY be any different. The Hulk does not eat people... Ok, you got me there, but what's WRONG with him eating people. The comics code kept them from allowing him to eat people back then so perhaps, he DID have a taste for the swwet flesh of man, yet was not able to act upon his urges.

Personally, I like having this new universe to explore and not have to gripe about characters doing things they are not supposed to or acting differently then I am accostumed to.

Just sit back and see where they are going with this, little project of thiers, if you can go sit through escapist summer blockbusters, the Ultimate Universe shouldn't be all that hard for you to swallow as well.

(wc-... I quit.)






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Since: 11.11.02

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#4 Posted on
I'm with Cerebus here, this isn't the regular Marvel Universe. Would you rather they go back to Stan Lee writing literally every title with his oh-so-astounding grasp of dialog? That is after all, how the characters *should* act, God forbid there is any change in comics.

That came out a little more bitter than I meant it to. But still, if you don't like the Ultimate line, then don't read it. If you prefer the regular MU, more power to you, that's your perogative (or however it's spelled). There are things I like about Ultimate Marvel, there are things that I don't like. But there is generally enough good to outweigh the bad that I will continue reading them as long as the keep the quality up.
KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

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#5 Posted on
I enjoy Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm not sure if that's because regular ASM/Spectacular/whatever the fuck they have now has been so bad for the last 5 years +, but Ultimate is much easier to enjoy, as it is NOT just a "modern version" of what was done in the early 60's (like John Byrne's godawful reboot), but a clever retelling of the Spider-Man mythos. I don't have any problem with it. Heck, the "Peter-Gwen-MJ love triangle" never seemed that interesting to me in the regular Marvel books, but I'm finding it entertaining as hell in USM.

Ultimate X-Men I stuck with for 6 months and dropped. Wasn't my thing, although I wouldn't say it was horrible.

As far as the heroes being preening assholes or whatever, I don't see much of that in USM, although it may happen in UXM. As I said, I don't follow that book now.

My whole problem with this "Ultimate" stuff is that it doesn't really accomplish anything other than to make Marvel money - it's not adding anything new. What happens in 30 years when USM is outdated and seems as goofy as the stuff from the 60's does to current readers? Do they do a new "Spider-Man Ultra" or some OTHER retelling? It makes me think that the issues of USM I'm buying now serve no purpose, and although I buy comics to READ and not to collect (not that I don't take care of them), it's still annoying to have that thought.

At least they didn't reset ASM to #1 AGAIN when Ultimate started up, and made Ultimate a seperate entity entirely. I first started buying ASM regularly around 360 which must have been around 1992-93 (first issue I bought was the first appearance of Carnage, and to a kid in middle school, he was f'ing awesome), and one of the reasons I dropped the book was because of the asinine reset to #1. Well...that, and the book was really starting to suck.

(edited by KaneRobot on 27.2.03 2319)


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The Vile1
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Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 1822 days
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#6 Posted on
"Wolverine isn't evil, he looking out for himself, like ANYONE would do. Beast is a dumb pervert, it's character development, I'm sure SOMETHINGS gonna happen to change that, just you watch. Cyclops is gay, big deal; are you a gay basher or something? There ARE gays in the world, you know. Jean and Storm aren't whinet brats, uh, last time I checked, MOST teens are whiney brats, why should THEY be any different. The Hulk does not eat people... Ok, you got me there, but what's WRONG with him eating people. The comics code kept them from allowing him to eat people back then so perhaps, he DID have a taste for the swwet flesh of man, yet was not able to act upon his urges."

I hate to break it to you, but speaking as a teenager who is usually around other teenagers at a university, I can say that most teenaged women here in Austin don't act like Jean Grey and Storm. I don't know anything about Cyclops being gay in ultimates. And don't call me a gay basher, just because I think its stupid that characters are made homosexual just so Marvel can do something shocking and controversial. What you're talking about isn't character development, its the marvel equivalent of shock/crash TV. It doesn't work, and in the long term its stupid and quite ridiculous. And Wolverine has always been a loner and usually looks out for himself, but intentionally trying to MURDER Cyclops is not something he would do. Would he do it if he was pushed to far or provoked into a mindless, beserker rage? Maybe. But that wasn't the case here.

The problem is that people are confusing character development with pure shock value. You want character development? Look at how Rogue started in the canon marvel universe and how she is now. Nightcrawler once a ladies man eventually became a devout priest, but still has certain desires that cause him distress.

As for the dialogue Smackfiend. I find Stan lee's writing more appealing that Mark Millar's shitty, "I got as high as Robert Downey Jr." and "My fake boobs are bigger than Britney's" laden dialogue. Not that I love Lee's dialogue, but its just bad and rather pointless. Hey you want readable dialogue in a comic book, check out Jeph Loeb on Batman right now, at least that book reads like it was actually EDITED or the writer wasn't trying to cram in as many random Leno-reject celebrity jokes as possible.

I'm not saying Ultimate Marvel can be completely without merit, but it is completely tactless and it won't be the flavor of the month forever. I'm going to use Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee on Batman as another example where you can do new, interesting, and exciting things with a familiar character without totally destroying what the character is. And its obviously paid off b/c Batman is a top selling title again, and Loeb and Lee will be doing an additional 6 issue storyline after "Hush" is said and done.

(edited by The Vile1 on 27.2.03 2131)


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J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
Jkyle.com says:

3 things...

1.Ultimate Hulk EATS people? That's stupid. In no way does that benefit him.

2.Ultimate Spider-Man is fun, but the Venom setup is horribly contrived. It reminds me of Clark making Lex's hair fall out at the science fair in Superboy.

3.INSULTING STAN LEE'S DIALOGUE? WHY DON'T YOU JUST SAY RIC FLAIR PUTS THE FIGURE FOUR ON THE WRONG LEG? Comic smarks.



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Since: 3.1.02

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#8 Posted on
What killed Ultimates for me was the new Ultimate War. This is was such a desperate attempt for people to buy UXM, I was laughing at the end. Then, I realized I spent almost ten bucks on the first 3 issues then I just threw my hands in the air. I do think the Ultimate line is more gritty and realistic and I do enjoy in Ultimates, but it doesn't work for X-Men. The first arcs were great, but eventually the Phoenix storyline killed it for me. I think Marvel's recent handling of Phoenix both in UXM and New X-Men proves only Claremont can write that character well while Milla and Morrison (No Surprise) can easily fuck it up.

Ultimates is a great book. The problem I have with it is the fact that Millar is kinda clueless about the characters after the first arc. Thor really shouldn't be with at all and he should have been nowhere near Ultimate War if he is against the U.S. Govt. Ant Man has to be thrown off the team, but that won't happen, because Fury will say he is to expensive to be harmed. Fury is my main problem with Ultimates. He is way too much into everyone's business. He hates the X-Men and has already threatened to take Peter in when he turns 18. Eventually, Fury and the US have been taken down a notch, but I don't they have the balls to do that. Its sad too, because Ultimates' world is where the unexpected is supposed to happen, but I can see the storylines from here.

A Fan- The worst part is Spiderman, the kid book, seems to be the most thought out and intriguing out of the three.
skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2219 days
Last activity: 2219 days
#9 Posted on
I'm in full agreement with The Vile1.

I never read past issue #1 of the Ultimate X-Men, but I can tell you that any other Wolverine by any other writer wouldn't act that way. Check out the original Secret Wars -available in trade. They had friction, but as Wolverine said to one the the Avengers was confronting Cyclops, "Back off, he may be a jerk, but he's Our jerk." In other words, the X-Men look after their own and you wouldn't see Storm blasting Xavier with a lightning bolt.

As for the dialogue, it's as bad in Ultimates as it was in Byrne's crappy Spiderman Year One. Contant references to J-Lo and Carson Daly give it a short shelf live. I tried Ultimates but for the Hulk issue where he eats people. How is screwing up the Hulk like that going to sell tickets to his upcoming movie? I also have a problem with all the Political Correct bullshit by turning Nick Fury black and making Thor a tree-hugger. Ultimate Daredevil couldn't have been more PC.

So, I don't read Ultimates. If it makes newer fans happy that's fine. I look at it as a big "What If" series.
KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2235 days
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#10 Posted on

    As for the dialogue, it's as bad in Ultimates as it was in Byrne's crappy Spiderman Year One. Contant references to J-Lo and Carson Daly give it a short shelf live.


I remember an issue of ASM a few years back where Spidey busted in on some warehouse where criminals were hanging out, and one of them yelled "W..who's there?!" and Spider-Man pops out and says "Well, it ain't the Jerky Boys!"

I HATE shit like that. Even back THEN it wasn't funny, and now not only is it not funny, but no one reading that back issue would get it.

I agree, I've seen that in the Ultimate books (USM, specifically) and if it wasn't for the fact that I enjoyed the hell out of the writing besides that, it be really annoying.

Still, you're right about the short shelf life, and it goes back to what I said above about how in 20-30 years, they are going to do the same old thing again, rendering USM a meaningless book.




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Shem the Penman
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Since: 16.1.02
From: The Off-Center of the Universe (aka Philadelphia)

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 3 days
#11 Posted on
Let's not lose sight of one important fact: Mark Millar sucks, no matter what he's writing. Mark Millar is the guy editors call when they want a Brit to write their book but Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Warren Ellis, Peter Milligan, Jamie Delano, Paul Jenkins, and Garth Ennis have all said no.



"next to of course god america i
love you land of the pilgrims' and so forth oh
say can you see by the dawn's early my
country tis of centuries come and go
and are no more what of it we should worry
in every language even deafanddumb
thy sons acclaim your glorious name by gorry
by jingo by gee by gosh by gum
why talk of beauty what could be more beaut-
iful than these heroic happy dead
who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
they did not stop to think they died instead
then shall the voice of liberty be mute?"

He spoke. And drank rapidly a glass of water
Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

Since last post: 279 days
Last activity: 279 days
#12 Posted on
I gave up completely on Ultimate X when they introduced the most overrated overused mutie ever, Gambit.

And the "Wolverine wouldn't do this" argument is bullshit. He was a hired assassin before joining the X-Men. No tell of a vast elaborate background before joining like the canon universe.

And Ultimate Spidey's Carson Daly reference was brilliant.





I have a special friend. He's the baby Jesus and I love him and...and...he don't give me no s**t and he don't f**k around and he's just the f**king coolest guy and I wanna say I love the baby Jesus.I can't say enough.I love the baby Jesus and I think...he's the best thing and he's really great when he shares his love for everbody.You know what I mean?I can't even see a manger without thinkin' about him,eh?I just love the Jesus.I've only been into him for a couple of hours though,but I'm really into him.
--
Bruce McCulloch
CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 113 days
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#13 Posted on
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    I look at it as a big "What If" series.


That's what it IS.


(edited by CxMorgado on 28.2.03 1724)


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Back in the crowd
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96
Stan Lee's 1960s run on the Amazing Spider-Man defined the character. Later, Roger Stern refined the character. Right now, J. Michael Straczynski is refining the character with his run. He's expanding on the character. Building, not tearing down. He got bitten by a radioactive spider...and THIS STUFF HAPPENED TOO.

Brian Bendis is doing something similar. Instead of Peter Parker the archetypical 1960s bookworm getting bitten by a spider, we get 2000s nerd Peter Parker getting bitten by a spider. The same star looks a lot different from the other side of the galaxy...that's what Ultimate Marvel is about.



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Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by CxMorgado
      Originally posted by skorpio17
      I look at it as a big "What If" series.


    That's what it IS.


    (edited by CxMorgado on 28.2.03 1724)



Yep. "What if... we butcher the characters you spent decades reading and getting to know and then sell it to you as NEW and AMAZING and REVOLUTIONARY?"

They did this before. Anyone remember when they gave the Image crew several of the classic Marvel characters to "re-imagine" after the Onslaught saga?

It was garbage then, it's garbage now. People complain when it's not the characters they know BECAUSE it's not the characters they know. If they want new people to read the book, that's great. What they've done is say "New people, good. All you old fans, who stuck by us for years? You can fuck off."



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Smackfiend
Mettwurst








Since: 11.11.02

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#16 Posted on
NO. They're saying all you old fans who stuck by us for years, we're keeping our old titles, but here's something different if you want it. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE FRIGGIN' BOOKS OK?
KaneRobot
Morcilla








Since: 24.2.02
From: Bowels

Since last post: 2235 days
Last activity: 1527 days
#17 Posted on
    Originally posted by Mild Mannered Madman
    And Ultimate Spidey's Carson Daly reference was brilliant.



Yes, I'm sure 30 years from now when we look back on brilliant moments in comic book writing, we'll have Miller's Batman vs. Mutant Leader from Dark Knight Returns, Moore's apocalyptic finale to Watchmen, Busiek's original Astro City miniseries....and Bendis' Spider-Man name dropping Carson Daly.

    Originally Posted by Nate The Snake
    They did this before. Anyone remember when they gave the Image crew several of the classic Marvel characters to "re-imagine" after the Onslaught saga?

    It was garbage then, it's garbage now.


How does that work? Because some writers screwed up a relaunch, that means ANY AND ALL revisions of a character will also suck? "Heroes Reborn" was New Coke. A money-grubbing mistake that was done away with as quickly as possible.


(edited by KaneRobot on 1.3.03 0100)


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Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#18 Posted on

    Originally posted by KaneRobot
    How does that work? Because some writers screwed up a relaunch, that means ANY AND ALL revisions of a character will also suck?


No, just the shitty ones that're done for no reason other than "let's put out more books, telling stories that've already been told so we don't have to think of anything original, and throw in contemporary references and change things around so we can sell it as NEW and SHINY and SPECIAL."

This is just as pointless and money-grubbing as Heroes Reborn, and for exactly the same reasons. They're trying to fix shit that isn't broken, solely for the purpose of making a buck. Hell, at least Heroes Reborn had the excuse that the books weren't selling all that well, and the characters weren't as popular as they used to be. Does anyone really believe that we NEED another friggin' X-title?



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

Since last post: 279 days
Last activity: 279 days
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by KaneRobot
      Originally posted by Mild Mannered Madman
      And Ultimate Spidey's Carson Daly reference was brilliant.



    Yes, I'm sure 30 years from now when we look back on brilliant moments in comic book writing, we'll have Miller's Batman vs. Mutant Leader from Dark Knight Returns, Moore's apocalyptic finale to Watchmen, Busiek's original Astro City miniseries....and Bendis' Spider-Man name dropping Carson Daly


So one would just generally assume you hate pop culture references, right? Perhaps I overstated my enjoyment over "Find this Carson Daly... And kill him"

Your other references...

There was many things better in Watchmen than the finale. Rohrshach's dual identities, Janey's realization of her background...


And the Batman/Superman fight was much better than the Batman/Mutant Leader fight. Too bad it was cheapened a bit in the shitty sequel.

I think we can just simplify the entire objective of this...

There are several good comic writers out there. Bendis, JMS, Chaykin, Robinson, Waid (usually), Ellison for examples.

Mark Millar is not one of them. I wouldn't mind if he disappeared to whichever looney realm Liefeld's mucking up this time.





I have a special friend. He's the baby Jesus and I love him and...and...he don't give me no s**t and he don't f**k around and he's just the f**king coolest guy and I wanna say I love the baby Jesus.I can't say enough.I love the baby Jesus and I think...he's the best thing and he's really great when he shares his love for everbody.You know what I mean?I can't even see a manger without thinkin' about him,eh?I just love the Jesus.I've only been into him for a couple of hours though,but I'm really into him.
--
Bruce McCulloch
CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 113 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by Nate The Snake

      Originally posted by CxMorgado
        Originally posted by skorpio17
        I look at it as a big "What If" series.


      That's what it IS.


      (edited by CxMorgado on 28.2.03 1724)



    Yep. "What if... we butcher the characters you spent decades reading and getting to know and then sell it to you as NEW and AMAZING and REVOLUTIONARY?"

    They did this before. Anyone remember when they gave the Image crew several of the classic Marvel characters to "re-imagine" after the Onslaught saga?

    It was garbage then, it's garbage now. People complain when it's not the characters they know BECAUSE it's not the characters they know. If they want new people to read the book, that's great. What they've done is say "New people, good. All you old fans, who stuck by us for years? You can fuck off."



My point is that getting THAT worked up (see above) over what amounts to a What If or Elseworlds story is retarded. Comparing the Ultimate books to the Onslaught fiasco is equally retarded because in that case they took all those characters OUT of regular continuity to do it. That's not what is happening here; the regular Marvel continuity is not getting affected by what happens in the Ultimate universe because they aren't the same. Being pissed off because an ALTERNATE VERSION of the Hulk ate somebody is like getting pissed because an ALTERNATE VERSION of the Scarecrow was an undead Nazi in JSA: The Liberty File. IT'S NOT REGULAR CONTINUITY. If you don't like it, don't read it. Just don't act like it's the end of the Marvel universe and decades of history, cuz it ISN'T. The Spiderman and the Wolverine that YOU want to read are still around in their own titles so this alleged slap in the face you say you're getting exists only in your own head.

Damn.



Can't hear your voice
Back in the crowd
Move up front
And shout out loud...

TAKE A STAND!
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