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The W - Current Events & Politics - Nothin' like transparency in a Democracy - Lawyers denied clearance to investigate the NSA (Page 2)
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pieman
As young as
he feels








Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

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Y!:
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.81

    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    AWArulz: I call Pieman and Flea a couple times a month, not because we're terrorists, but because I want to talk trash about Pieman's place in the W loves Nascar Yahoo fantasy group. Flea, of course, is my cell leader. Superduper computer sees that and established that Me, Mr Terrorist calls Pieman and Flea. So it looks at that connection. Pieman never calls anybody but Papa John's and the NY Giant's Fans anonymous help line. Flea, on the other hand, calls a bunch of guys with arabic sounding names in Florida and also out of the country.

    WHY ME?!?!(edited to respect my elders!)




Thanks for making me the Real American and FLEA the bad guy, AWA!





Gabba gabba hey!
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 33 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
I wonder if the way I feel about this is not what the administration is hoping for by this constant drumbeat of small and marginally defensible infringements, but I honestly just can't work myself up to care anymore. I know intellectually I disagree with it but it's to the point where I know seemingly 5% of the US will be appalled, 25% will say that anything Dubya thinks will stop Al-Qaeda is worth it, and 70% will be texting each other indignant messages over the dude who lost on American Idol this week. So fuck it. Monitor my calls. You'll hear me bitching about Bobby Jenks and salivating that I'll be getting WWE 24/7 soon. Read my email. As long as I keep the illusion of choice through consumption in an ultra-branded capitalist country and have plenty of entertainment available through all forms of technology, I give up. You win, Mr. NSA/CIA/Pentagon/Illuminati/whomever else is all shadowy. Sadly, I'm succumbing to intellectual NIMBYism. I'm a straight white male who can pass as religious and middle of the road with a haircut and an amen. I got nothing to worry about. So go for it and I hope this program catches lots of terrorists because I would hate for all of this to be for naught. Now if you'll excuse me my IPod needs attending to.



Now I'll never be able to lead SPF's spfers! (The W)
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 22 days
Last activity: 19 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    And StingArmy, there is a difference between a business collecting inofrmation and the government.

I was referring specifically to the government collecting such information. It's been done in the past.

- StingArmy
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Isn't it at least somewhat likely that the government has a list of known or strongly suspected terrorist phone numbers, and they're simply looking for people who might be dialing those numbers, or receiving calls from them?

I'm not quite sure what people are afraid of. So, Uncle Sam knows that you called your mom last Sunday. Do you really think they're going to start listening in and recording your calls? What on earth does the NSA have to gain from it? Is the fascist Bush administration going to tighten their grip on absolute power by listening to your grandmother call up her friends and discuss the church supper? I can't think of a reason, legitimate or nefarious, that anyone would start tapping the calls of average citizens.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
Six degrees of Kevin Bacon... unneccesary guilt by association.

My life insurance company deciding I called for take-out too many times.

Future employers calling pre-screening companies to determine if I am "immoral" or a potential "morals clause" violation due to my associates.

There are plenty of things I don't want every future person I talk to to have available at their fingertips. What if a guy I sponsor for drug rehab decides to go on a killing spree? Should I need to worry about that since I'm now linked to them? Should I need to worry that my next employer might get a "Red" rating from the background check company because of this link?



Ignorance is bliss for you, hell for me.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2778 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    Six degrees of Kevin Bacon... unneccesary guilt by association.

    My life insurance company deciding I called for take-out too many times.

    Future employers calling pre-screening companies to determine if I am "immoral" or a potential "morals clause" violation due to my associates.

    There are plenty of things I don't want every future person I talk to to have available at their fingertips.


But how do you get from the NSA collecting this information to your next employer suddenly having access to it? Again, is the government going to start selling this to life insurance companies? If anything, shouldn't you be more worried that your phone company, who also has all of this information, is more likely to make this information available to advertisers, etc?


    What if a guy I sponsor for drug rehab decides to go on a killing spree? Should I need to worry about that since I'm now linked to them? Should I need to worry that my next employer might get a "Red" rating from the background check company because of this link?


Wouldn't the police be quetioning you in that case anyway? And if someone wants to give you a "red" rating because of something you've said here, they don't need the NSA. Your email address and five minutes on Google will likely reveal more about you, your character and your associates than your phone bill would.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
My phone company has a privacy policy that says that they won't provide it. The government does not. Up until now I thought my privacy was protected unless law enforcement had a subpoena, which would be fine and I understand if there is a specific need for my records. The problem I have is that twenty years from now I could have to explain why a guy I bought a car from (called him a few times, sent $5000 his way) 20 years ago is flagged for an action that I had no idea about.

If these databases weren't so nebulous I wouldn't be upset. I think there need to be clear rules and auditing for errors. But, since the lawyers can't even see the data, I have no chance of looking at it myself to check for accuracy.

Someone's life can be made extremely unpleasant just from a bad credit report - but at least you can get to the data and disput it. How do youo fix a problem caused by the data mining of large government databases?

Maybe its because I've been a database administrator and built business reporting on a large scale that I'm worried. I know what information I had available when I worked at the cable company - and this would be immensely greater information.



Ignorance is bliss for you, hell for me.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 20 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Isn't it at least somewhat likely that the government has a list of known or strongly suspected terrorist phone numbers, and they're simply looking for people who might be dialing those numbers, or receiving calls from them?

    I'm not quite sure what people are afraid of. So, Uncle Sam knows that you called your mom last Sunday. Do you really think they're going to start listening in and recording your calls? What on earth does the NSA have to gain from it? Is the fascist Bush administration going to tighten their grip on absolute power by listening to your grandmother call up her friends and discuss the church supper? I can't think of a reason, legitimate or nefarious, that anyone would start tapping the calls of average citizens.


The other side to these questions is this: If none of these sorts of things can or are going on, why not let lawyers investigate?

I don't accept that it's a security issue. Investigating to make sure I'm not being tracked for some mysterious reason isn't the same as saying "HEY OSAMA, WE'RE TAPING YOUR CALLS."

And just because Guru or me or you or whomever aren't guilty of what the government says it's looking for with this illegal search doesn't mean nothing will be held against you. I promise you someone you talk to on a daily basis buys or sells drugs. Are you guilty of anything? Even if you're not, do you want to be bothered with the subsequent stupid inquiry? With that many numbers and that many calls, it would be pretty easy to put together a chain linking you to a terror suspect.

Also, just because the government *says* this is only being used to track "terrorists" doesn't make it so. Don't be so naive. Why would they do it? I don't know for sure, but I'd guess its just a measure to gain as much power and influence over the American people as possible. Pretty much anyone who has ever been president has been power hungry- they have to be. But some of them have just been fucked up crazy trying to solidify their place as gods (personally, I call these presidents "Republicans").

The one thing I'm certain of is there is something going on here the government doesn't want its population to know about and is being hidden from us, and that under no condition is acceptable.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.86
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    The one thing I'm certain of is there is something going on here the government doesn't want its population to know about and is being hidden from us, and that under no condition is acceptable.
Unfortunately, in this day and age there are occasions when the only way to keep information from the wrong people is to keep information from ALL people. I still have enough trust in our government (whoever's in charge) that I am happy to let them compile as large a database as they can in order to get the most complete picture in order to find the stuff that we all NEED them to find.

Guru and I keep massive databases of every hit logged to the board. We also have the means to log every single query and transaction of our databases to yet ANOTHER database if we so desire. Are we doing it to keep tabs on DrDirt... or are we collecting this information so we can look back later and spot trends in order to prepare for the future? We can do either, but we're only doing one.

I already anticipate your counterargument - "well, I'm CHOOSING to access the message board." Hey, pal, you're CHOOSING to use the phone. There's more than one way to communicate - although I'm sure that practically everything that's worth monitoring IS being monitored in some way.

DISCLAIMER: In my younger days, I aspired to be an NSA crytographer, so I will always sympathize with them. (I didn't have the grades and I didn't want to move to the DC area)




CRZ
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 20 days
Last activity: 20 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by CRZ
    I already anticipate your counterargument - "well, I'm CHOOSING to access the message board."


More like "you and Guru aren't the U.S. government." If you think a private Web site logging its hits and referrals is the same as the U.S. government logging its constituants' phone calls, than you must also think banning people because you find them annoying is unconstitutional. You can't say "it's my board" to justify one action and not the other.

You have no responsibility to tell me whether or not you log where my trips to this Web site come from. As far as I'm concerned, you have the right to track whatever you damn well please on your own Web space. The U.S. government is not you, however, and "billions of domestic phone calls" is not "the-w.com."
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.51
    Originally posted by CRZ
    We also have the means to log every single query and transaction of our databases to yet ANOTHER database if we so desire. Are we doing it to keep tabs on DrDirt... or are we collecting this information so we can look back later and spot trends in order to prepare for the future? We can do either, but we're only doing one


Thanks. Because I can spot a subversive when I see one. But I think you should do the future trends too.




We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
rockdotcom_2.0
Frankfurter








Since: 9.1.02
From: Virginia Beach Va

Since last post: 529 days
Last activity: 145 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
I second Bucs on his post. And Ill add that The Government has the power to arrest you. And they dont seem to have a problem with holding you indefintely in a place like Guantanamo Bay. CRZ doesnt have a police force. And neither does Google or Microsoft.



"I could be wrong, but I doubt it"---Charles Barkley
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 18 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.12
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by CRZ
      We also have the means to log every single query and transaction of our databases to yet ANOTHER database if we so desire. Are we doing it to keep tabs on DrDirt... or are we collecting this information so we can look back later and spot trends in order to prepare for the future? We can do either, but we're only doing one


    Thanks. Because I can spot a subversive when I see one. But I think you should do the future trends too.


AWA, I think that's the nicest thing you ever said about me.

I may have read 1984 one to many times but this stuff really makes me uneasy. It should scare the crap out of us all that there are companies that know more about you than you do yourself.



Perception is reality
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 38 min.
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.05
Allegedly now, the government is using phone records of reporters to suss out anonymous sources (newsblogs.chicagotribune.com). Somehow, I don't think this will change any opinions. If you're concerned about privacy, then this only reinforces that it is being eroded, and if you're concerned about national security, then the leaks are a security risk that need to be addressed.



Found at Insert Credit, citing Something Awful: "Nintendo is so intent on becoming number one, that they named their console after it."
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- redsoxnation, That's our Jesse (2002)
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