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27.11.14 0222
The W - Pro Wrestling - No-Selling
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BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4419 days
Last activity: 4419 days
#1 Posted on
Okay, I'm basically posing a question here and then stating my position.

Why is it such a crime for a big guy (Undertaker, Mark Henry) to no-sell moves, but no one ever complains when the (to use the hip new term) X-Divisioners do it, no one says a word.

If you've seen one of these X-Division matches, you might know what I mean. Basically, the match consists of this:

one guys does a move, stays down, guy who takes move gets up, does move back

Over and over again.

I saw Low Ki hit one of the most vicious looking moves I've ever seen on Red and he got right up to do another move. Is that not no-selling? I'm confused. Hell, flashback to ECW, Rey-Juvi, 2 out of 3 falls, I believe it was Queens, New York. That whole match consists of the formula I put above. Now, I know some people find this entertaining, and I do too, to a point. The first X-Division match I saw, the 6-man elimination, I went nuts, match was ridiculous. But, after seeing it for 4 weeks in a row and watching my good friend Deion's "Best of Rey" tape, I'm so immune to it that I find it asinine. I don't see how Taker standing there when you punch him is any worse than taking a suplex and hopping right back up. In fact, I'd say it's worse. Maybe I'm gonna get hated on for this, but hell, it's my opinion, and I'm wondering yours on this.



"BobHollySTILLRules STILL rules!"-SmooveK

Bengals, Playoffs, 2002.

DON'T BELIEVE IT!

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WhoBettahThanDeion
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 4419 days
Last activity: 4255 days
#2 Posted on
What a shocker, I agree.

When I first saw Styles I was impressed as well. Then I saw it again and again for four weeks straight, sometimes twice in one night. The same go for Rey Mysterio's work in ECW before his feud with Malenko. I think the problem without selling is, you don't see a cohesive story told in-ring. I mean the best parts of matches for ME are seeing a guy work through an "injury" sustained while being put in submissions. Why I like Malenko so much, the guy knew how to work bodyparts and with the right opponent you would see an awesome display of athleticism and story told in-ring. Lynn and Styles is like watching those highlight reel shows, it just gets real boring after awhile, to me. It gets to a point where the big spot doesn't mean anything, it's just another rep in a constantly changing set of moves. I remeber that Lo-Ki/Red match being bored off my ass. Spot to spot I just remember going "OOH! And "OH!" In my most condescending fashion. I prefer the style of wrestling that doesn't rely on spot to spot chains. And, oh yeah, lot's of selling and oveselling (Rock style)!



I RESPECT you opinion. Please respect mine. Or feel the wrath of Buddha!

J-Lo and Ja' Rule are the worst singing/rapping duo I've ever seen in my life (my response to the "totally live" performance of that annoying "Ain't it Funny" song at last year's VMA's. The show where everybody goes home happy and the winner's aren't really winners, they're just people randomly selected based upon their pop status).
WyldeWolf1
Boerewors








Since: 20.6.02
From: Florida

Since last post: 4466 days
Last activity: 4466 days
#3 Posted on
I agree with the take on Cruiserweights. It seems like their tendency to create spot-fests overrides the overall story-within-the-match and gets old after a while. Don't get me wrong---I LOVE most of their spots. Still, I don't think it's necessary to sacrifice psychology to do them.

As for the big guys no-selling...

For Undertaker, it was his gimmick for many years. These days, it's okay if
1) It's against a small guy like Jeff Hardy, and they're emphasizing the David vs Goliath angle.
2) The no-selling is temporary. In other words, I don't expect Taker to feel it after a couple of punches from Jeff. I DO expect him to be hurting after a 'rana, some kicks, and a legdrop to the groin.

I look back to the RVD-Taker match for the Hardcore title last fall for a good example. There was some great psychology there where RVD wore Taker down after a while, and almost pulled it off.



WyldeWolf1
The Man of 1,007 holds, making him 3 holds better than Chris Jericho!
m2k_2002
Polska kielbasa








Since: 6.6.02
From: san jose

Since last post: 4463 days
Last activity: 4462 days
#4 Posted on
I dont really mind the no-selling but when It happens to often it begin's to be a problem.

Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3783 days
Last activity: 3253 days
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#5 Posted on
I have a huge problem with that sort of thing, as well. It kills the suspension of disbelief for me. We're supposed to believe that these guys can fold each other up like greeting cards, over and over again, for who-knows how long and springing right to their feet and then watch a match with bigger guys getting pinned after, say, a powerslam?

The only way I could possibly see it as being believable is to use the old "adrenaline rush" explanation, saying that they don't really feel the pain until after the match... but if that was the case, then pretty much every X-division style match would end in a double stretcher job, because both guys should be in a friggin' coma after all the spots they pull off.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
timdrake
Polska kielbasa








Since: 17.3.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 99 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#6 Posted on
I think the issue these days isn't so much guys no selling things, but more selling the same types of moves consistently. Look at the Edge-Jericho cage match this past Thursday. Edge speared Jericho while Jericho was caught up in the ropes. Now, if this had been the end of the match, Jericho would have been finished since Edge sometimes uses the spear as a finisher (if mememory serves, wasn't Jericho actually pinned after a spear?). Since it was towards the beginning of the match though, Jericho barely sold it. I think matches can be made more exciting by potential "match ending" moves coming at anytime, but it also has to make it a lot more difficult for the wrestlers to know how much or how little to sell them.
Faust
Salami








Since: 27.7.02

Since last post: 4419 days
Last activity: 4364 days
#7 Posted on
Timdrake said:

"Edge speared Jericho while Jericho was caught up in the ropes. Now, if this had been the end of the match, Jericho would have been finished since Edge sometimes uses the spear as a finisher (if mememory serves, wasn't Jericho actually pinned after a spear?). Since it was towards the beginning of the match though, Jericho barely sold it."

Well, Im sure I disagree with that, Timdrake. First of all, Jericho wasn't nearly as worn down and softened up towards the beginning of the match as he would have been towards the end of the match, therefore the spear would hurt more towards the end of the match.
Second, I think the spear *while tied up in the ropes* would hurt less, after all, he isn't getting slammed against the mat if he's tied up in the ropes. A regular spear would have two points of impact: The actual spearing plus the point where Jericho would hit the mat. That sounds more painful to me.

To address big guys no-selling, personally, I think people just blame the big guys more becuase they're not as exciting in their no-selling, so the viewer has more time to say to himself, "Gee, he's no-selling." I think the cruisers are just as guilty if not more guilty than the big guys of no-selling, but I'm more willing to not notice it so much because at least there's a lot of action to distract me from it.
timdrake
Polska kielbasa








Since: 17.3.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 99 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by Faust
    Well, Im sure I disagree with that, Timdrake. First of all, Jericho wasn't nearly as worn down and softened up towards the beginning of the match as he would have been towards the end of the match, therefore the spear would hurt more towards the end of the match.
    Second, I think the spear *while tied up in the ropes* would hurt less, after all, he isn't getting slammed against the mat if he's tied up in the ropes. A regular spear would have two points of impact: The actual spearing plus the point where Jericho would hit the mat. That sounds more painful to me.



    Ok, I'll buy that. I do think that some moves are used way too often through a match, though, setting up times for inconsistent selling.
deadbeater
Morcilla








Since: 12.2.02
From: Parts unknown

Since last post: 4406 days
Last activity: 4406 days
#9 Posted on
My problem is that no one besides the Rock plays straight possum anymore. I remember a Steamboat match in which his opponent thoguht he made a great move and was bragging about it. Meanwhile, from behind, Steamboat laid there for a couple of seconds, then he got up, hushed the crowd, then laid right back down. He and Flair are great sellers. Hogan is a good seller too. That's why his Hulk-up spot is more epic.



"Business has just picked up" says JR. Then right on cue, Molly enters the arena! Never was JR any better in introducing someone. --Raw 7/15
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2896 days
Last activity: 2880 days
#10 Posted on
I gotta say I agree with BobHollySTILLrules- It annoys me much more when some little guy jumps right up after being 'ranaed than when someone like UT is no-selling punches. I actually enjoy big guys no-selling to a certain extent- it's part of the big man gimmick, for crying out loud, and oftentimes it makes sense. Cruisers popping up and pulling off a huge spot after being flattened makes no sense whatsoever, to me.



Moo hoo ha ha.
Vishnu
Longanisa








Since: 9.7.02
From: The heartland of America

Since last post: 4401 days
Last activity: 4401 days
#11 Posted on
Few things:
1. Don't implicate all cruiserweights: there's NJPW, blah blah blah.

2. I agree. That's why I think Keller was right on with his criticism of that Modest-Daniels tryout match a while ago. Yes, extenuating circumstances and whatnot, but tons of folks were apparantly going nuts for that match. I thought it was ridiculous (and I'm absolutely certain they would do better if given a chance, but I'm talking about that particular match).

3. Still, I'd much rather see a junior guy no-sell, because at least they're doing something. Taker, et al, just stand around (or throw lame punches, or ahem, "methodically" work their opponent over) most of the match. That's boring. If you're going to no-sell, have the decency to make it a spot fest. Taker no-selling does not entertain me.

4. Here's a thought: maybe the solution is more lucha-style six man tags, where the psychology makes more sense (ie, get hit with a big move, roll out and let the next guy come in).



Baby, the world ain't round, it's square
WyldeWolf1
Boerewors








Since: 20.6.02
From: Florida

Since last post: 4466 days
Last activity: 4466 days
#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by Faust
    I think the spear *while tied up in the ropes* would hurt less, after all, he isn't getting slammed against the mat if he's tied up in the ropes. A regular spear would have two points of impact: The actual spearing plus the point where Jericho would hit the mat. That sounds more painful to me.




Actually, the spear to the mat should hurt less, because your body gives at the initial impact. Unless your head hits the mat hard, it wouldn't hurd that much more than striking your back after receiving a suplex.

Which does more damage: Driving into a concrete wall that doesn't give, or a bunch of crates that collapse and fall at impact?



WyldeWolf1
The Man of 1,007 holds, making him 3 holds better than Chris Jericho!
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

Since last post: 21 days
Last activity: 1 day
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Y!:
#13 Posted on

    Originally posted by WyldeWolf1

      Originally posted by Faust
      I think the spear *while tied up in the ropes* would hurt less, after all, he isn't getting slammed against the mat if he's tied up in the ropes. A regular spear would have two points of impact: The actual spearing plus the point where Jericho would hit the mat. That sounds more painful to me.




    Actually, the spear to the mat should hurt less, because your body gives at the initial impact. Unless your head hits the mat hard, it wouldn't hurd that much more than striking your back after receiving a suplex.

    Which does more damage: Driving into a concrete wall that doesn't give, or a bunch of crates that collapse and fall at impact?



Yeah, but wouldn't the ropes act as a sort of shock absorber? I know they're supposed to be taut, but we can tell that isn't always the case. Besides, it didn't look like he went back far enough to hit the cage.

...methinks it's time for another "Physics of Wrestling" column.
Faust
Salami








Since: 27.7.02

Since last post: 4419 days
Last activity: 4364 days
#14 Posted on
Exactly, one's body certainly does give when tied up in the ropes

But even more important is the fact that in the ropes, Edge cannot follow through as much or else he would hit his head on the cage (or plummet through to the outside in a non-cage nevironment.

Also, with that kind of move, I'd say the chance of the recipient striking his head against the mat are pretty high. The chances for whiplash are pretty high too.
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WWE.com (wwe.com) is reporting that Tough Enough season 4 winner, Daniel Puder, has been released from his WWE contract. I thought he was getting a pretty good push, that according to the OVW reports that I've been reading.
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