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The W - Baseball - No no NO, please no Sosa! (Page 2)
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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#21 Posted on
Regarding the roids thing. I find it hilarious when a Giants fan accuses Sosa of being on the juice, but get very offended when you mention that they take a look at the prodigious leap in size of their very own left fielder. Yes, Sosa was very thing when he first came up, but look at his legs...they were huge way back then, His upper body was very underdeveloped. Now, he just looks like a large man, like many in MLB. He did come into the 99 season looking extremely large, but, he ended up losing that weight when Baylor called him on it in the press that it was hindering him defensively.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#22 Posted on
I'm just excited about the announcement of Sammy's new business venture. He's opening up a vineyard and producing Sammy Sosa's Slugging Shiraz wines. I hear the enticement to buy is that each bottle comes with a game-used cork *rimshot*

The only thing I can say in Sammy's defense is that as a White Sox fan who remembers how every year he would end up messing up his paperwork to get into the country, he may be the only person on earth I would actually buy the "that wasn't meant to be my GAME bat" excuse from. He's big, he's friendly, but he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

And yes, I AM still bitter that he didn't do crap when he was with us.



and maybe I should open up my sensitive side/but really, the sensitive side sucks./I've been there./You can only imagine the kinds of sweaters they make you wear.

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Since: 20.2.02
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#23 Posted on
No, you're bitter cause your a Sox fan in a Cubs town:-)
Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#24 Posted on
From a book entitled "The Physics of Baseball" by Robert Adair


Page 133:

"...the cork or rubber stuffed into a hole drilled in the bat will serve more as a detriment than an advantage. The extra material will add, perhaps one-half ounce to the bat's weight-at the end-and then store about 2% of the bat's energy. But that energy will not be effectively transferred to the ball. Even if the filler were quite elastic, the elastic energy of the filler cannot be transferred efficiently to the bat in the 1/1000 second of the bat-ball collision. Hence the extra material will only slow the bat down a little and slightly reduce the distance the bat hits the ball. Such filler would take about 3 feet off a 400-foot drive."





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Since: 20.2.03

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#25 Posted on

    Originally posted by messenoir
    Buying rings is cheating to me. It's just legal cheating.


Legal Cheating.... hmmm, think about that one for a second
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Since: 28.1.02
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#26 Posted on

    Originally posted by Doc_whiskey
    As far as home run derbies go, a cork bat does not add that much distance. According to the "Did you know?" on sportscenter this morning, it only adds a 1% increase on distance. So if you hit a 400 ft homerun, it would go 404 feet with a corked bat. SO really for someone is powerful as Sammy a corked bat really doesn't add a whole lot.


I suspect Sam was using it in BP for timing, since he'd been on the DL and his timing was terrible. A Corker is just great for timing. Then, either it WAS an honest mistake (I am a huge Sammy mark, but I doubt it), or Sammy said to himself, "self, you hit good with this in BP, let's take a swing or two in the game". I figure he hasn't been using them for the last few years, because, actually Corkers reduce your distance if you're big and powerful. Corkers are only a help for wristswingers.

But they are great for timing in BP. Just freaking awesome.



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Since: 26.8.02

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#27 Posted on
It reeks of the "Hey I need my LEGAL stick" thing in the NHL a while back.

Hopefully it's just a genuine mistake with the bp bats and not a desperate guy trying to keep up with everyone else. Or maybe he's got an enemy in the clubhouse or something who 'accidentally' added a corker into his bat mix.

And 4 feet could mean off the wall instead of caught and stuff like that. I mean, if you told players that standing on their heads yodeling leads to more hits, somebody would try it.
Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#28 Posted on
Listening to what Joe Morgan said on tonights broadcast, hime and Glen or Duane Kuiper had some bats doctored for BP purposes (while they were with the Giants @ the Stick), to see if they worked and Morgan had accidently used one in a game. He never got caught, but like I've said before, it sounds like its not that uncommon an occurance.


Edit: Having a doctored bat for BP, not using them in games. And there is still no excuse that this bat wasn't seperated from the rest of them, I mean, he had 76 other bats tested, all came back OK, I can see how a mistake might be made, but if you're screwing around with something illegal, you'd think that you'd make DAMN sure that you would have it marked or something.


That was the worst run-on sentence in the history of run-onsentences. I always had a problem with comma splices.


EDIT 2(since I'm the last person in this thread): A link to the author of the book that I mentioned above http://www.ajprint.net/archive_authors/canfield/interview.html.

(edited by Whitebacon on 4.6.03 1715)

(edited by Whitebacon on 4.6.03 1846)

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Since: 7.4.02
From: The Inner City, Now Living In The Country

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#29 Posted on
Just my opinion, of course, but while it may suck to be a Sammy Sosa fan right now, let's try to keep this in perspective. While cheating is definitely deplorable and dishonesty is a dispicable character trait, remember: This is baseball, and cheating is as much a part of baseball and baseball's history as peanuts and Cracker Jacks. Even baseball's Hall of Fame owes its residency in Cooperstown to a totally fabricated fable about where the game was "invented". So Sosa got caught; he'll be punished, he'll move on, and we'll all have one more story to tell during future rain delays.

For those interested in just how large a role cheating has played in the history of the national pastime, an amusing and informative article on baseball's biggest cheaters (espn.go.com) can be found on the ESPN web site.




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Since: 9.2.02

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87

    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    From a book entitled "The Physics of Baseball" by Robert Adair


    Page 133:

    "...the cork or rubber stuffed into a hole drilled in the bat will serve more as a detriment than an advantage. The extra material will add, perhaps one-half ounce to the bat's weight-at the end-and then store about 2% of the bat's energy. But that energy will not be effectively transferred to the ball. Even if the filler were quite elastic, the elastic energy of the filler cannot be transferred efficiently to the bat in the 1/1000 second of the bat-ball collision. Hence the extra material will only slow the bat down a little and slightly reduce the distance the bat hits the ball. Such filler would take about 3 feet off a 400-foot drive."


...and you can find 40 scientists to explain in detail why the curveball is simply "an illusion", and the ball really has no movement.



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ges7184
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#31 Posted on
    Originally posted by Whitebacon

      Originally posted by Grimis
      The only real way to do it is random testing(something that MLB has been loathe to do in other areas). If it were up to me, players caught corking bats, sanding the ball, etc would be suspended without pay for one month.

      You can't limit the amount of bats a player/team gets becasue that is negotiated between the manufacturer and the player and a lot of players donate autographed bats for charity, etc. Regardless, if a player breaks a lot of bats(or if they're like the one player who discared a bat after each hit) you're then limiting their ability to play.

      Nor can the league provide bats. Each player has a different bat model. They use the same model from year to year, and often the same bat for long periods at a time. If the league provides the bats they man not have access to the bat they are comfortable with(imagine Tony Gwynn having to hit with a 35 ounce bat instead of a 31 or 32).



    Exactly what I was going to say. You'd never be able to get anything like that through the players union either. Players use different models, different brands, different colors, different sizes, hell, different types of wood. Players already have endorsement deals with various companies. MLB doling out bats simply would not work.



You guys act if this is by law, when it is simply by rule. Just because players DO use different brands and models and colors don't mean that they HAVE to. They are simply working within the context of the current rules. [And c'mon, the size argument doesn't wash, I'm not talking about bring one bat that all the players have to use. All the different weights would be provided (and more than enough to cover broken bats). Heck, even Little League provides different sized bats, I'm pretty sure MLB could work a deal to get every size bat imaginable.) Heck, you could even still have players sign bats and donate them to charity. NFL provides footballs. NBA provides basketballs. Heck, MLB baseball provides the baseballs, they COULD provide the bats, it is possible.

But the one good argument you have is the strong baseball union (with the lost endorsements being part of the reason). You're right, even if baseball did want to do this, it would never get through the union. Heck, for that matter, random testing of bats probably wouldn't get past the union either. Maybe that is the reason why baseball really don't pursue these things very agressively.

BTW, Sammy's lame excuse doesn't wash with me. If he knows which bat is corked, he definately would know not to pick it up (why wouldn't he have it put away, since he would know that he couldn't use it anyway). And we are expected to believe that the one time (I guess he says 3 or 4 times now) he uses an illegal bat (but one he uses often in batting practice), it splinters on him and he's busted. Well, he's either full of it, or has the most horrible luck in the world. Either way, I don't feel sorry for him, nor do I understand the defense of him. This could have easily been avoided by simply not corking ANY bats.

*Though I do find it interesting that, at least what is posted here, that using a corked bat is pretty much pointless, and may even take distance OFF the ball. Pointless cheating is the best kind! But I thought that science had pretty much decided that curve balls DO have some movement, reversing themselves from previous conventional wisdom. I'm pretty sure I've even seen explanations on Discovery or some like channel. I'm sure other scientists may disagree.

(edited by ges7184 on 5.6.03 1022)
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Chandler, AZ

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#32 Posted on
I just read that they did pull all the bats the Hall of Fame had and checked them also. They all came back negative. They had 5, 3 of which they got in person right after they were used in 1998.
Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#33 Posted on
Ges, I've seen the same thing regarding the curve on Bill Nye, or something like that too, they've pretty much accepted and established that you can put that kind of spin on the ball using the resistance of the air, which is one of the reasons balls don't move as well in Coors. Rob Neyer also has something to say on the subject if you'll Click Here (espn.go.com)

EDIT: Linkification

(edited by Whitebacon on 5.6.03 1259)


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Since: 6.1.02
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#34 Posted on
    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by Quezzy
      He went from hitting 30 homeruns a season to 60. I would not be surprised if he'd been corking them for a while now.

    I actually would attribute that to things that are not corking a bat. A corked bat is only as good as the hitter using it; if you still can't get the barrel through the zone and generate bat speed, it doesn't do you any good. If anything, I would chalk it up to the lively ball or steroids.



Well I never said that the corked bat caused him to hit the ball HARDER, but it does help hit homeruns. Yes it's true (or atleast I believe) that the corked bat does not help you hit the ball much farther, but it let's you hit it more often because it gives you more bat speed. So you're able to swing a bigger bat as fast as you could a smaller bat. So it's not that he's hitting it harder. He had homerun power before that, he's just hitting it more often and because of that he's hitting more homeruns. After all look at his homerun numbers and his batting averages.

1993 33 .261
1994 25 .300
1995 36 .268
1996 40 .273
1997 36 .251
1998 66 .308
1999 63 .288
2000 50 .320
2001 64 .328

So notice how his homerun numbers go up because he's hitting it more often, which could be because of having faster bat speed.

But if you people say that corking a bat doesnt help, and that Sammy's explosion isn't because of corking that still doesn't mean he hasn't done it before.

Regardless of whether a corked bat helps or not, it was his intent to cheat and he should be punished.

(edited by Quezzy on 5.6.03 1654)


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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#35 Posted on
How do you know he HAS done it before though. You don't, I don't Chip Caray doesn't, Dusty Baker doesn't, Rick Reilly doesn't, and Jose Canseco sure as hell doesn't know. There is only one person who knows if he has or not. His 76 other bats were clean, the 5 that he has at the HOF were clean. They sawed HR bat #498 in half, it appeared to be undoctored. Ever give credence to the thought that his BA rose because he became (slightly) more patient at the plate, and became an overall better hitter?



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Since: 6.1.02
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#36 Posted on

    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    How do you know he HAS done it before though. You don't, I don't Chip Caray doesn't, Dusty Baker doesn't, Rick Reilly doesn't, and Jose Canseco sure as hell doesn't know. There is only one person who knows if he has or not. His 76 other bats were clean, the 5 that he has at the HOF were clean. They sawed HR bat #498 in half, it appeared to be undoctored. Ever give credence to the thought that his BA rose because he became (slightly) more patient at the plate, and became an overall better hitter?


But how do you know he hasn't either? You don't. He was caught with cork in his bat, therefore he was cheating. So why should we believe he hasn't used it before if he's a cheater. Don't tell me that crap about his bats being x-rayed being clean. He isn't going to give them any corked bats. Duh! THey didn't even collect his bats until innings later, they would've gotten rid of them already. And you would have to be a moron to give a corked bat to the Hall of Fame.



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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#37 Posted on

    Originally posted by Quezzy

      Originally posted by Whitebacon
      How do you know he HAS done it before though. You don't, I don't Chip Caray doesn't, Dusty Baker doesn't, Rick Reilly doesn't, and Jose Canseco sure as hell doesn't know. There is only one person who knows if he has or not. His 76 other bats were clean, the 5 that he has at the HOF were clean. They sawed HR bat #498 in half, it appeared to be undoctored. Ever give credence to the thought that his BA rose because he became (slightly) more patient at the plate, and became an overall better hitter?


    But how do you know he hasn't either? You don't. He was caught with cork in his bat, therefore he was cheating. So why should we believe he hasn't used it before if he's a cheater. Don't tell me that crap about his bats being x-rayed being clean. He isn't going to give them any corked bats. Duh! THey didn't even collect his bats until innings later, they would've gotten rid of them already. And you would have to be a moron to give a corked bat to the Hall of Fame.



Never said I did, I just think that you should probably give him the benefit of the doubt. He's also shattered numerous bats over the years, none of which were corked. Did he use it this time? Yep. What the hell do you want me to say? Might he have used it before? Maybe. He may have decided to give it a whirl because of his recent struggles at the dish. He probably has used it before. Before this year? Maybe, maybe not, that's not for me to decide, I really have no idea whether or not he has. Considering this hasn't come up before, (and yes, call me a fucking moron for believing that the bats in the Hall are legit if you want) Nothing he has ever done in his career up until now has even hinted at him doctoring his bats. I also lend credence to the other major leauguers that have come out and said that they've doctored bats to try out in BP and accidently used them in games. Just because he's used it this one time does NOT mean he's used it ever before, it just means he used it this one time. Again, he may have, but given his strength, using one would only have a pschological advandtage, and not much of a physical one.



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Since: 19.3.02
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#38 Posted on

    Originally posted by jfkfc

    ...and you can find 40 scientists to explain in detail why the curveball is simply "an illusion", and the ball really has no movement.


Personally, I couldn't do that, and I don't think you can either.
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#39 Posted on
    Originally posted by Joseph Ryder

      Originally posted by jfkfc

      ...and you can find 40 scientists to explain in detail why the curveball is simply "an illusion", and the ball really has no movement.


    Personally, I couldn't do that, and I don't think you can either.



Don't know about 40, but here's one that says it's NOT an illusion. Helluva article
http://www.pitching.net/mechanicsofabreakingpitch.htm

another NOT an illusion
http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/advanced/curveball-01.html

This is another basic NOT, explaining something called the Magnus effect
http://www.earthsky.com/2001/esmi010703.html

Another NOT
http://www.cosmicbaseball.com/99scr.html


Ok, maybe they go 40 to the NOT illusion side.



(edited by AWArulz on 7.6.03 0620)


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Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

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#40 Posted on

"America may have some problems, but it's our home. Our team. And if you don't wanna root for your team...then you should get the hell out of the stadium. Go America." --Stan Marsh, South Park


    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    From a book entitled "The Physics of Baseball" by Robert Adair
    Page 133: "...the cork or rubber stuffed into a hole drilled in the bat will serve more as a detriment than an advantage. The extra material will add, perhaps one-half ounce to the bat's weight-at the end-and then store about 2% of the bat's energy. But that energy will not be effectively transferred to the ball. Even if the filler were quite elastic, the elastic energy of the filler cannot be transferred efficiently to the bat in the 1/1000 second of the bat-ball collision. Hence the extra material will only slow the bat down a little and slightly reduce the distance the bat hits the ball. Such filler would take about 3 feet off a 400-foot drive."




Uh, no. Cork isn't added to bats to make 'em more springy, and bounce the ball off the bat with more energy. Replacing the wood in the center of the bat with a lighter material, such as cork or Super Balls (don't laugh, somebody once did that, and their bat broke, spilling Super Balls all over the infield), makes the bat lighter, hence increasing bat speed.

This means that the hitter is a little quicker at the plate, and has just a tiny bit more time to decide on a pitch. Bat speed is essential in putting the ball on the bat and smacking the ol' horsehide over the fence. It ain't about elasticity, it's about less weight=more speed. It sure as hell doesn't slow down the bat any.

Hell, Norm Cash won the 1960(?) batting title with the Tigers and admitted years later he corked his way to the crown.



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