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The W - Current Events & Politics - No 10 knew: Iraq no threat
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Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 1 day
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#1 Posted on
And here we go again...

No 10 knew: Iraq no threat

And quoting:

--

In a message that goes to the heart of the government's case for war, the Downing Street chief of staff, Jonathan Powell, raised serious doubts about the nature of September's Downing Street dossier on Iraq's banned weapons.

"We will need to make it clear in launching the document that we do not claim that we have evidence that he is an imminent threat," Mr Powell wrote a week before the document was finally published on September 24.

--

You know, I am getting a little tired of all of this. And not to beat a dead horse, where are the frickin' weapons?

(My mood was not made better by RAW tonight, so I apologize in advance...)



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics"
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
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A-MOL
Frankfurter








Since: 26.6.02
From: York, England

Since last post: 3932 days
Last activity: 3874 days
#2 Posted on
This whole Hutton Inquiry into Kelly's death is one of the most fascinating political events to have happened in years. We are pretty much seeing the inner workings of the Goverment, particularly the MoD, and the BBC and it appears, so far, that no-one is holding any information back, what with private e-mails being shown to the court.

And today, we have the turn of Director Of Communications, Alistair Campbell, which could become very interesting.



...full of energy. Multi-orgasmic, if you will, in a cosmic sort of way."
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Leroy
    And not to beat a dead horse, where are the frickin' weapons
But we've done this already.

And incidentally, is anybody surprised that Saddam funded the protests against the war? or that the UN never talked to much about the state of environmental disaster Iraq was left in.

(edited by Grimis on 19.8.03 1050)

"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 1 day
#4 Posted on
Much as I deplore all things New Labour and Tony Blair I feel its only right to point out that Powell also stated that there WAS evidence in the document to suggest Iraq had WMD.

"But he added that ``the document does nothing to demonstrate a threat, let alone an imminent threat from Saddam. In other words, it shows he has the means but it does not demonstrate he has the motive to attack his neighbors let alone the West.

``We will need to make it clear in launching the document that we do not claim that we have evidence that he is an imminent threat,'' Powell wrote."


Given Saddams less than pure track record it wouldn't be too crazy to suggest that he may have used his 'means' even in the absence of a clear defining motive.



OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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Last activity: 4 days
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#5 Posted on



That's quite the loaded statement. What, exactly, in that article says anything even remotely to that effect?



"George W. Bush is in the middle of his annual 35-day vacation. How many of you get a thirty-five day vacation every year? Yeah, see, that's because they need you at your job... Don't worry, George. Another seventeen months, and you're going to have the longest vacation of your life."
---David Letterman, The Late Show
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

Since last post: 618 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard



    That's quite the loaded statement. What, exactly, in that article says anything even remotely to that effect?



"Two prominent Lebanese pan-Arabists have fled to France to avoid paying the mobs they hired for pro-Saddam demonstrations in Beirut last winter. And other pro-Saddam Ba'athists are facing unpaid bills for anti-war demonstrations they organized in Morocco, Algeria and Egypt."

But I would have to agree with you before I read the story I was thinkinkg the protest here in the US too.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
#7 Posted on



Yeah, and the link you posted had nothing to do with Iraq, but instead some WWI munitions that were buried and forgotten about - which is more telling about our ability to find our own weapons in our own country much less in another. Which is more reason why the UN should have been allowed to finish their job, etc, etc...

And if it is wrong for pro-Saddam forces to be sponsoring anti-war rallies in other countries, then it's wrong for the largest radio conglomerate in the US to sponsor pro-war rallies here, Bush backer sponsoring pro-war rallies, especially while they are "reporting" on it. And quoting a rather nice gem:

--

But many of the rallies, it turns out, have been organised and paid for by Clear Channel Inc - the country's largest radio conglomerate, owning 1,200 stations - which is not only reporting on the war at the same time, but whose close links with President Bush stretch back to his earliest, much-criticised financial dealings as governor of Texas. The company has paid advertising costs and for the hire of musicians for the rallies.

Tom Hicks, Clear Channel's vice-chairman, is a past donor to Bush's political campaigning. The two were at the centre of a scandal when Mr Bush was governor and when Mr Hicks chaired a University of Texas investment board that awarded large investment-management contracts to several companies close to the Bush family - including the Carlyle Group, on whose payroll Mr Bush had been until weeks previously, and which still retains his father.

--


    Originally posted by Grimis
    or that the UN never talked to much about the state of environmental disaster Iraq was left in.


I don't think it should surprise anyone that Hussein was not an environmentalist. Why you are blaming the UN (who we have been ignoring for the last few months) for not making a bigger deal of it is a bit of a mystery.







"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Leroy
    And if it is wrong for pro-Saddam forces to be sponsoring anti-war rallies in other countries, then it's wrong for the largest radio conglomerate in the US to sponsor pro-war rallies here

Nobody is saying it's wrong or right. Just a tad disingenuous that the media portray these "anti-American" rallies in the Mideast be spontaneous uprisings of popular support similar to the "isolated" celebrations of 9-11 in Palestine.


    Originally posted by Leroy
    I don't think it should surprise anyone that Hussein was not an environmentalist. Why you are blaming the UN (who we have been ignoring for the last few months) for not making a bigger deal of it is a bit of a mystery.
They seemed to be awfully keen on trying to feebily find weapons. The UN is hard up on getting everybody to play by their environmental rules; this is a project they can't screw up.



"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
    Nobody is saying it's wrong or right. Just a tad disingenuous that the media portray these "anti-American" rallies in the Mideast be spontaneous uprisings of popular support similar to the "isolated" celebrations of 9-11 in Palestine.


Well, you've just gone from calling them "protests against the war" to "anti-American" in three short steps. Nicely done, I might add. It's not like it was some huge secret that we were going to bomb him - it's not a surprise he tried to throw some money in that direction. And I would hope that no group in this country would take it. But that does not mean all "anti-war" protests were anti-American. Maybe that's not what you are saying, but its sure the direction you are pulling things in.

And it's just as disingenuous to act as though these pro-war rallies aren't being sponsored by a major media outlet, but rather some "spontaneous uprisings of popular support". In other words, when it happens here and for a cause you support, its okay. But when they do it... its evil, and the media's "disingenuous".

And how many 9-11 celebrations were there in Palistine, out of curiosity?


    Originally posted by Grimis
    They seemed to be awfully keen on trying to feebily find weapons. The UN is hard up on getting everybody to play by their environmental rules; this is a project they can't screw up.


If "feebily" applies to the UN, then it certainly applies to the US as well. We have had no more luck finding anything than the UN. But the UN is "feeble". Again, when its us, its okay. When its someone else, its bad.



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Leroy
    And it's just as disingenuous to act as though these pro-war rallies aren't being sponsored by a major media outlet, but rather some "spontaneous uprisings of popular support".

Actually, I never said that. That's just as moronic.




"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3759 days
Last activity: 3418 days
#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by Leroy
      And it's just as disingenuous to act as though these pro-war rallies aren't being sponsored by a major media outlet, but rather some "spontaneous uprisings of popular support".

    Actually, I never said that. That's just as moronic.



He never said you said any thing there. "...it's just as disingenuous to act as though..."

It's a paraphrase of an insinuation.

At least that's what I got out of it.





I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




Make sure to check out ThreepMe's Website of Fun
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Leroy
    And not to beat a dead horse, where are the frickin' weapons?

Just to make sure that everybody reads this.


(edited by Grimis on 21.8.03 1326)

(edited by Grimis on 21.8.03 1355)

"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
#13 Posted on
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Just to make sure that everybody reads this.


    (edited by Grimis on 21.8.03 1326)



It seems the link is broken, although I did find it a bit ironic that I got a big page "Not Found" message...

(edited by Leroy on 21.8.03 1046)


"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Fixed now...



"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3759 days
Last activity: 3418 days
#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Leroy
      And not to beat a dead horse, where are the frickin' weapons?

    Just to make sure that everybody reads this.


    (edited by Grimis on 21.8.03 1326)

    (edited by Grimis on 21.8.03 1355)



That article seems like a bunch of Hoo-Hah. If this was the case, then why isn't the U.S. pointing a finger at Russia?

We were more than happy to warn Syria and Iran when it looked like they were getting too chummy with Iraq or any Iraqi that we were looking for.

Just seems kinda silly that an ex-spy of a half-ass country is putting blame on a country that is not even a fraction of what it used to be.

And even if Russians helped "dispose" of WMD, then how did that slip under our nose, but yet this guy just happens to know?

Seems too improbable.

This article needs proof, not one guy's word.



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




Make sure to check out ThreepMe's Website of Fun
A-MOL
Frankfurter








Since: 26.6.02
From: York, England

Since last post: 3932 days
Last activity: 3874 days
#16 Posted on
Back to the Hutton Enquiry...

"The implication was that if the invasion went ahead, that would make him a liar and he would have betrayed his contacts, some of whom might be killed as a direct result of his actions," he said.

"I asked him what would happen then. He replied, in a throwaway line, he would probably be found dead in the woods."


Click Here (news.bbc.co.uk)

The implication is not that he was bumped off by Iraqi agents, by the way. It has been said by friends and family that he was very upset by his inability to help stop a war.





...full of energy. Multi-orgasmic, if you will, in a cosmic sort of way."
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 2045 days
Last activity: 1979 days
#17 Posted on
This whole situation is such a maze of pitfalls for all involved, but ultimately it's going to be the ruination of the current government. No ruling body comes out of these types of inquiries unscathed; the fact is that a government HAS to be doing something wrong for such an inquest to even take place. When you factor into that the murky language used in the case for war and the inability to separate fact from spin, it becomes quite a black mark on Labour's name; and, considering most folk viewed their debate with the BBC as an attempted distraction from the issue, it puts them in an even worse light that they seem to care so little that a spin tactic caused a man's death. No case for war should be this hard to pick apart-Hell, if they'd stuck to a simple "Saddam is a brutal dictator" they could've gone in there eventually and not have this web of bullshit waiting to trap them after. And to see each government-and, yes, BBC-official scurrying for cover and protecting their own selfish interests when called to face the inquiry is a sight to behold. Mark my words: within the next two-three months, both Geoff Hoon and Alastair Campbell will be packing their bags. Somebody's scalp is needed in return for Kelly's death, and these two are the highest-profile expendable figures out there.



I Took The Father, I'll Take The Son

godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3963 days
Last activity: 3909 days
#18 Posted on
Oh, Grimis, the Washington Times? The paper owned by the Moonies? Nobody takes the Washington Times seriously. This isn't equivalent to me posting something from the Guardian - this is equivalent to me posting something from Democratic Underground.

Also, why on earth would anybody trust the word of Ion Pacepa on this? After remaining silent on this topic for over fifteen years, with a slant that's been blatantly far-right-at-all-costs over the course of his western career - this is a guy who in 1989 was telling everybody that Saddam was moving towards privatization and multi-party democracy - and who by his own admission engineered propaganda campaigns for Nicolai Ceaucescu. This automatically doesn't discount his "suspicions", but I personally would be a weeny bit careful of accepting at face value a story concocted by a veteran propagandist capable of waffling and obviously lacking in objectivity.

And frankly, the involvement of three "mystery ships" really isn't even close to being a smoking gun. Remember the US claims of knowledge about the exact location of WMDs pre-war? It seems unlikely that the Iraqis could spirit away the WMDs, place them aboard cargo ships, and have them sail off undetected. Where are the intercepted cellphone calls ordering the removal of these WMDs through Syria or Jordan? Where's the paper trail? Who was responsible for implementing the plan? And most importantly, why is the US government not actively seeking the answers to these questions?

The suggestion that these cargo ships could not be interrupted or detained also rings untrue. What about twenty-four-hour observation? What about shadowing the ships? If verifiable, hard facts suggested that the ships actually were carrying WMDs, then why on earth would an administration that was banking its credibility and the entire argument for war against Iraq on the existence of WMDs not do everything in its power to seize these ships as the proof the US so desperately wanted? Why is the US government not mounting an intense investigation to locate and seize these ships at this very moment?

Maybe it's because these ships (if they actually exist) have no credible link to WMDs, and the entire story is a right-wing conspiracy theory? Nah. Couldn't be. After all, you read it in the Washington Times.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by godking
    Oh, Grimis, the Washington Times? The paper owned by the Moonies? Nobody takes the Washington Times seriously. This isn't equivalent to me posting something from the Guardian - this is equivalent to me posting something from Democratic Underground

Oh give me a break. The Washington Times should not be taken any more or less seriously than the liberal papers. Basically the argument boils down to "I don't agree with it, therefore it should not be legitimate."

Please...



"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3963 days
Last activity: 3909 days
#20 Posted on
Oh give me a break. The Washington Times should not be taken any more or less seriously than the liberal papers. Basically the argument boils down to "I don't agree with it, therefore it should not be legitimate."

The Washingtong Times is a rag, much like the New York Post. If you want a conservative paper that's respectable, there's the Wall Street Journal (despite a rabidly weird editorial board), the Times of London, or the Economist.
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