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The W - Current Events & Politics - Nice editorial on Affirmative Action (Page 2)
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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#21 Posted on
I tell you what, guys, if I got bumped off of a college enrollment list for some motherfucker who scored worse than me, I would be apeshit.

So would I, although the person I would go apeshit at is much more likely to be the child of an alum than an ethnic minority. You've got to end that totally unfair admissions prejudice if you're going to end race-based factoring also. But, of course, this never gets hyped in the media like "Blacks guys can score worse than me and get in" always does.

The one difference there, is that the Japanese that received reparations were the direct vitim of the action. Not a victim, perceived or real, 150 years after the fact.

Well, if ex-slaves had just gotten 40 acres and a mule from the master's plantation 150 years ago, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. But they didn't. Maybe time heals all wounds, but just because something that should have gotten rectified in the past didn't, doesn't mean that it should be ignored now.

The biggest problems I see with cash reparations are the following.
Oh, I agree, cash reperations (meaning money goes directly from someone to descendents of slaves) opens up huge cans of worms and would, in all practicality be impossible to apply. But there are other ideas out there. Heck, at least a formal apology (something our government has never issued) would be something.





Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Well, if ex-slaves had just gotten 40 acres and a mule from the master's plantation 150 years ago, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. But they didn't. Maybe time heals all wounds, but just because something that should have gotten rectified in the past didn't, doesn't mean that it should be ignored now.

You're right. They SHOULD have received their 40 acres and a mule. Hell, they should have turned over the whole damn plantation to the slaves that worked it. But they didn't, and it's about 150 years too late to do a damn thing about it. And what do you mean, it shouldnt be ignored now? There's nothing to ignore, other than the disgusting racism of a minority of idiots in this country (of all colors). Institutional racism is (almost) over.



Damn your eyes!
Jobberman
Kishke








Since: 2.1.02
From: West Palm Beach, FL

Since last post: 26 days
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#23 Posted on
I found this article and thought it was interesting. I'm am sure there are counter arguments to alot of the points the author make, but it is interesting, regardless.

Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks - and Racist Too
By David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | January 3, 2001


One



There Is No Single Group Clearly Responsible For The Crime Of Slavery



Black Africans and Arabs were responsible for enslaving the ancestors of African-Americans. There were 3,000 black slave-owners in the ante-bellum United States. Are reparations to be paid by their descendants too?



Two



There Is No One Group That Benefited Exclusively From Its Fruits



The claim for reparations is premised on the false assumption that only whites have benefited from slavery. If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves. The GNP of black America is so large that it makes the African-American community the 10th most prosperous "nation" in the world. American blacks on average enjoy per capita incomes in the range of twenty to fifty times that of blacks living in any of the African nations from which they were kidnapped.



Three



Only A Tiny Minority Of White Americans Ever Owned Slaves, And Others Gave Their Lives To Free Them

Only a tiny minority of Americans ever owned slaves. This is true even for those who lived in the ante-bellum South where only one white in five was a slaveholder. Why should their descendants owe a debt? What about the descendants of the 350,000 Union soldiers who died to free the slaves? They gave their lives. What possible moral principle would ask them to pay (through their descendants) again?



Four



America Today Is A Multi-Ethnic Nation and Most Americans Have No Connection (Direct Or Indirect) To Slavery



The two great waves of American immigration occurred after 1880 and then after 1960. What rationale would require Vietnamese boat people, Russian refuseniks, Iranian refugees, and Armenian victims of the Turkish persecution, Jews, Mexicans Greeks, or Polish, Hungarian, Cambodian and Korean victims of Communism, to pay reparations to American blacks?



Five



The Historical Precedents Used To Justify The Reparations Claim Do Not Apply, And The Claim Itself Is Based On Race Not Injury



The historical precedents generally invoked to justify the reparations claim are payments to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, Japanese-Americans and African- American victims of racial experiments in Tuskegee, or racial outrages in Rosewood and Oklahoma City. But in each case, the recipients of reparations were the direct victims of the injustice or their immediate families. This would be the only case of reparations to people who were not immediately affected and whose sole qualification to receive reparations would be racial. As has already been pointed out, during the slavery era, many blacks were free men or slave-owners themselves, yet the reparations claimants make no distinction between the roles blacks actually played in the injustice itself. Randall Robinson's book on reparations, The Debt, which is the manifesto of the reparations movement is pointedly sub-titled "What America Owes To Blacks." If this is not racism, what is?



Six



The Reparations Argument Is Based On The Unfounded Claim That All African-American Descendants of Slaves Suffer From The Economic Consequences Of Slavery And Discrimination



No evidence-based attempt has been made to prove that living individuals have been adversely affected by a slave system that was ended over 150 years ago. But there is plenty of evidence the hardships that occurred were hardships that individuals could and did overcome. The black middle-class in America is a prosperous community that is now larger in absolute terms than the black underclass. Does its existence not suggest that economic adversity is the result of failures of individual character rather than the lingering after-effects of racial discrimination and a slave system that ceased to exist well over a century ago? West Indian blacks in America are also descended from slaves but their average incomes are equivalent to the average incomes of whites ( and nearly 25% higher than the average incomes of American born blacks). How is it that slavery adversely affected one large group of descendants but not the other? How can government be expected to decide an issue that is so subjective - and yet so critical - to the case?



Seven



The Reparations Claim Is One More Attempt To Turn African-Americans Into Victims. It Sends A Damaging Message To The African-American Community.



The renewed sense of grievance -- which is what the claim for reparations will inevitably create -- is neither a constructive nor a helpful message for black leaders to be sending to their communities and to others. To focus the social passions of African-Americans on what some Americans may have done to their ancestors fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago is to burden them with a crippling sense of victim-hood. How are the millions of refugees from tyranny and genocide who are now living in America going to receive these claims, moreover, except as demands for special treatment, an extravagant new handout that is only necessary because some blacks can't seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others -- many less privileged than themselves?



Eight



Reparations To African Americans Have Already Been Paid



Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, trillions of dollars in transfer payments have been made to African-Americans in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences (in contracts, job placements and educational admissions) - all under the rationale of redressing historic racial grievances. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African-Americans and other Americans. If trillion dollar restitutions and a wholesale rewriting of American law (in order to accommodate racial preferences) for African-Americans is not enough to achieve a "healing," what will?



Nine



What About The Debt Blacks Owe To America?



Slavery existed for thousands of years before the Atlantic slave trade was born, and in all societies. But in the thousand years of its existence, there never was an anti-slavery movement until white Christians - Englishmen and Americans -- created one. If not for the anti-slavery attitudes and military power of white Englishmen and Americans, the slave trade would not have been brought to an end. If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks in America would still be slaves. If not for the dedication of Americans of all ethnicities and colors to a society based on the principle that all men are created equal, blacks in America would not enjoy the highest standard of living of blacks anywhere in the world, and indeed one of the highest standards of living of any people in the world. They would not enjoy the greatest freedoms and the most thoroughly protected individual rights anywhere. Where is the gratitude of black America and its leaders for those gifts?



Ten



The Reparations Claim Is A Separatist Idea That Sets African-Americans Against The Nation That Gave Them Freedom



Blacks were here before the Mayflower. Who is more American than the descendants of African slaves? For the African-American community to isolate itself even further from America is to embark on a course whose implications are troubling. Yet the African-American community has had a long-running flirtation with separatists, nationalists and the political left, who want African-Americans to be no part of America's social contract. African Americans should reject this temptation.



For all America's faults, African-Americans have an enormous stake in their country and its heritage. It is this heritage that is really under attack by the reparations movement. The reparations claim is one more assault on America, conducted by racial separatists and the political left. It is an attack not only on white Americans, but on all Americans -- especially African-Americans.



America's African-American citizens are the richest and most privileged black people alive -- a bounty that is a direct result of the heritage that is under assault. The American idea needs the support of its African-American citizens. But African-Americans also need the support of the American idea. For it is this idea that led to the principles and institutions that have set African-Americans - and all of us -- free.
bash91
Merguez








Since: 2.1.02
From: Plain Dealing, LA

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#24 Posted on
You'd better be careful about quoting Horowitz. Using material like that can get you kicked off several college campuses and censored on a much larger number. Of course, that illustrates the impossibility of actually discussing reparations and voicing a contrary opinion, but that's just me.

Tim



"Verhoeven's _Starship Troopers_: Based on the back cover of the book by Robert Heinlein."
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by bash91
    You'd better be careful about quoting Horowitz. Using material like that can get you kicked off several college campuses and censored on a much larger number. Of course, that illustrates the impossibility of actually discussing reparations and voicing a contrary opinion, but that's just me.

    Tim



Horowitz came to my college last year, and the lefties were up in arms about it. Absolutely ridiculous. The Republican Club's newspaper was also routinely defamed and stolen, presumably by these great left-wing defenders of everyone's freedom and civil rights.



Damn your eyes!
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#26 Posted on
Thing is- that ENTIRE quote is right on. It is well thought out, well presented, and completely destroyes the entire argument for "reparations" to blacks. Sadly, however, it can, and likely will (or has been) rebutted by the following, single phrase. -
"That is the most racist thing I have ever read!"
I love it- you do not want to pay millions upon millions to blacks who may or may not have been descended from slaves, who are poor because of their OWN failings, and you are a racist.
Yeah- Colin Powell, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Michael Jordon, Spike Lee, Morgan Freeman- just a few examples of blacks who have been held down by "the man" in this racist society. GIVE THEM ALL TAX MONEY!

(edited by Pool-Boy on 13.12.02 0013)



3 out of 5 Statisticians agree- Statistics are all bull$hit!
"Pool-Boy"
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Yeah- Colin Powell, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Michael Jordon, Spike Lee, Morgan Freeman- just a few examples of blacks who have been held down by "the man" in this racist society. GIVE THEM ALL TAX MONEY!

    (edited by Pool-Boy on 13.12.02 0013)



Tiger Woods, Samuel L. Jackson, fucking Shaq's stupid ass, plus all these rapper assholes that pretend to be all hard and oppressed when they're making millions off of every race. I really hate when those dirtbags rap about how their ancestors were slaves and they act like it was fucking their asses out in the fields. There's a Nas lyric I'd like quote but I can't remember it verbatim. In most respects, I'm as liberal as they come- I scored as more of a Red than anyone else here on that political compass quiz (I was a bit shocked- my old platoon sergeant would hand me my ass if he saw that shit), but asking for compensation for something that happened to your great-great-great grandaddy is insane. I think that services in the inner-city should be upgraded with tax money, especially education and law enforcement, but cutting people checks is ludicrous. Something really needs to be done about crime and schooling in the ghetto, but, shit, what the fuck does that have to do with goddamn slavery? My family was in fucking Sweden until the 1920's. Why should I pay for this shit? I'll throw down some dough for improving anyone's quality of life, but don't hand me this victim bullshit. Does that mean I should start shelling out cash because my ancestors raped and pillaged their way through Europe for a hundred years? Maybe we should ask for some cash from Italy because the Romans had fucking EVERYONE in slavery, even other Romans! Every night I go to bed wondering what the hell happened to common sense.



Moo hoo ha ha.

Rangers lead the way
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#28 Posted on
Thing is, no one here seems to want monetary reparations. Most black people I know seem to think the concept is ridiculous, and the others seem to have very little concept of how the world works. You know, Nader voters...

The most anyone is asking for around here is a ceremonial apology from the government (you know, like how the Catholic church apologized for being complicant during the Holocaust two years ago, even though JPII wasn't Pope until the 1970s.), and an official formal dialouge being opened. That's all. It wouldn't hurt *anything*, and would probably get some sympathy for Dubya from black voters. (And no matter how you want to interpret recent elections, this country's split right down the middle, and everyone can use every vote they can get, and as it stands, all the blacks who voted for Bush are in his Cabinet.)

And I have no problem getting rid of race-based affirmative action if we can get rid of "George W Bush" affirmative action that allowed that moron to get into Yale. If we're going to let people who don't deserve it AT ALL into these schools because of what their daddies did, then I have no problem throwing a bone to people who've historically been held back by society as well. (And, it's not like they aren't taking the most qualified black applicants, and I highly doubt how often *ALL* the most qualified applicants are white anyway...)



Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    And I have no problem getting rid of race-based affirmative action if we can get rid of "George W Bush" affirmative action that allowed that moron to get into Yale. If we're going to let people who don't deserve it AT ALL into these schools because of what their daddies did, then I have no problem throwing a bone to people who've historically been held back by society as well. (And, it's not like they aren't taking the most qualified black applicants, and I highly doubt how often *ALL* the most qualified applicants are white anyway...)

Hold the presses, because I agree with Fuzzy....

...BUT there is a problem with the Yale analogy. As far as I am aware, Yale is still a private college. If they want to give preferential treatment to the studetns of grads, then let them go. As a private institution, they have the right to do that much like Augusta National does not have to have female members. If we're talking about state schools it's another story.

Irregardless of whether or not nepotism is banned from the admission proccess, it will happend anyway.



What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#30 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
    Hold the presses, because I agree with Fuzzy....


It's a Christmas miracle!

That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown...



MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#31 Posted on
...BUT there is a problem with the Yale analogy. As far as I am aware, Yale is still a private college. If they want to give preferential treatment to the studetns of grads, then let them go. As a private institution, they have the right to do that much like Augusta National does not have to have female members. If we're talking about state schools it's another story.


Well, then you shouldn't have a problem if they want to use affirmative action in admissions also.

Regardless, even "Private" institutions in this country have the gub'ment's hand in there somehow. It wouldn't be too tough to get them to stop (on an official level at least) if the gub'ment really wanted them too. But of course, nobody's trying to give 10 million dollars to buy a building so someone else's kid can use it.




Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1214 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Well, then you shouldn't have a problem if they want to use affirmative action in admissions also.


Fair enough. When I speak to it I usully refer to public colleges...



What kind of disjointed society do we live in if Merry Christmas is Politically Incorrect?
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    The most anyone is asking for around here is a ceremonial apology from the government (you know, like how the Catholic church apologized for being complicant during the Holocaust two years ago, even though JPII wasn't Pope until the 1970s.), and an official formal dialouge being opened.


The one problem I may see with this is that it could open the door to Lawsuits against the government. If the Government said "We are sorry for what we did, we were wrong" You could get a bunch of people going "Hey they admitted they were wrong now I want $100 Million for the wrong you did against my family." I mean people are suing Fleet Bank because they made money off Slavery 150 years ago I am sure someone will try it with the government.
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#34 Posted on

    Originally posted by calvinh0560

      Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
      The most anyone is asking for around here is a ceremonial apology from the government (you know, like how the Catholic church apologized for being complicant during the Holocaust two years ago, even though JPII wasn't Pope until the 1970s.), and an official formal dialouge being opened.


    The one problem I may see with this is that it could open the door to Lawsuits against the government. If the Government said "We are sorry for what we did, we were wrong" You could get a bunch of people going "Hey they admitted they were wrong now I want $100 Million for the wrong you did against my family." I mean people are suing Fleet Bank because they made money off Slavery 150 years ago I am sure someone will try it with the government.



...and they would be promptly dismissed because there's no reason why the government should pay up. Translate that into a legal reason however you see fit... if that happened, I just don't see anyone making money suing the government for reparations.



Today's Out-Of-Context Quote, Courtesy of Punkinhead:

"I'm gonna go dig up a date!"
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 14 hours
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
Thing is- that ENTIRE quote is right on. It is well thought out, well presented, and completely destroyes the entire argument for "reparations" to blacks. Sadly, however, it can, and likely will (or has been) rebutted by the following, single phrase. -
"That is the most racist thing I have ever read!"


Oh, give me a break.

Click Here for a point by point logical refutation of Horowitz' points.

Click Here for another

Click Here for five more

We could argue about this forever. This is just to show you that there are plenty of good, logical counter-arguements out there that don't rely on screaming "racism." What's really cheap isn't screaming "racism" as the counter-arguement. What's really cheap is what you did: decide this "completely destroys" an arguement without bothering to find any easily-found counter arguements, and then assuming a straw-man responce to rail against. It's like when pull out "before you tell me that conservatives are heartless bastards like you liberals always say" before anyone actually suggests anything remotely like that.

I won't tell you that sometimes liberals won't take the cheap way out of arguements. But that's hardly just a liberal trait. If I had a nickle for every time a conservative responded "that's just more PC Bullshit." or "That's just more pandering to people's feelings" or even "you're just going to say it's racist, like you always do" to a liberal arguement, I'd be richer than Vince McMahon. The immediately post-IPO Vince to boot.

(edited by MoeGates on 14.12.02 0051)


Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Fuzzy: You have no problem "throwing a bone" to "people who have been held-down, historically," but do you think it's ok to deny some working class white kid from humble background a spot a private college, because someone of color needed to get in? Because when you admit people based on race, you are of neccessity denying others based on race.

Moe: I would take another issue with your refutations for Horowitz. They all rest on this terribly fuzzy "group" logic, i.e. "the white community" is responsible for this, and "the black community" feels that way. I don't know about you, but I have never seen "white America." All I know is, I had absolutely fuck all to do with slavery, and I am not going to apologize for it in any way, or pay anyone any sort of reparations. If we wanted to take this back to the days of slavery, sure, I can see the logic in saying that a group (the government) repressed another group) blacks, because it was categorically true. Now, however, it just ain't the case; you and I had nothing to do with slavery, and to apologize for it is almost insulting to black people. Can we, perhaps, just live as individuals instead of living by this bizarre racial determinism, as in all people of the same skin color must stand together and think alike?



Damn your eyes!
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